Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifton
What I enjoy is that with every post that I prove wrong, you respond with a new "spin" on your original argument. First it's a "self-suporting" monocoque today it is a monocoque "frame". The uncomfortable moment with a rolling argument, like yours, is that you eventually trip over your own words. Today you did just that:
Orginal argument:
Today:
Bad news for you on your new argument ("monocoque frame"), that's wrong too. Look to my previous post and you will find what you need there. Also, I'd like to help you and get you pointed in the right direction for Fiero data. Start with Pontiac Fiero Wiki - there you will find they boast about the Fiero, but the only "first" claim they give is that turd was the "first" mass-produced mid-engine, by a US manufacture.
Today's new claim:
Days ago:You also made this claim several days ago.
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You are still separating the use of a monocoque frame and plastic body panels as two independent design (or use-of-materials) concepts. My point has been the COMBINED use of both the monocoque-frame concept AND no-load-plastic panels. I’ve never changed from that original discussion position; you’ve just tied to make it that way.
I'll type slowly so maybe you'll get it this time. My original point was the construction design (let's say
methodology for clarity sake) of both the Z1 and the Fiero use a "self-supporting monocoque" (those are BMW's exact words not mine - Pontiac called it a "space-frame") chassis WITH (i.e. INCLUDED as part of the design) plastic body panels (with the significance of the plastic panels use being that the panels do not carry part of the load of the chassis as normal unit-construction [i.e. monocoque-body] chassis do) was pioneered by GM.
You keep separating the two technologies so as to try and win an argument with something I did not say, write , infer, or imply.
You point to the first-use of plastic as a body material with a Plexiglas covered Engineering display model - what a joke, and it was a GM anyway. That car was not a production automobile, not intended to be a production automobile, and was never sold to the public.
You point to Henry Ford's Soya Bean car, which was an engineering study and demonstration, and a car not produced nor sold to the public. And the real joke about your use of the Soya Bean car as an example, which you'd not understand since you’ve probably not read the book,
Ford, The Men and Machine, is the plastics developed for producing a the car were to prove the use of the Soya Bean as a base material for plastics (rather than petroleum) so as to increase the need for Farmers to grow crops. The use of food produce to make industrial products was a movement of the 1930's called "Chemurgy". Go get the book and start reading on page 228 (I have the 1st edition published in 1986) so you’ll understand the purpose of Ford’s Soya Bean car. The Soya Bean car tried to pioneer the use of Soya Beans as a source for plastic, not pioneer the plastic car. Henry Ford's idea being a manufacturer could grow Soya Beans just out side its manufacturing plant and process the material on-site and turn the plastic into car parts.
You got close about the use of plastic body panels with the CRX and the BX, but both cars were contemporaries of the Fiero time-wise and neither had the body entirely made of plastic, nor were either monocoque-framed cars using plastic panels for the entire body (as the Z1 and Fiero do). By the time those two cars were released Pontiac was well into finalizing the Fiero for production and did not "copy" the use of plastic body panels from them. Just as both the 914 and X1/9, which neither being plastic-bodied and moncoque framed. Yes both were two-seat, mid engine designs, but alas I never claimed the Fiero pioneered that design (as you've tried to claim). Come to think of it, I’ve never heard of a 4-seat mid-engine design that was a mass-produced car; so maybe use of a mid-engine design just naturally lends itself to a 2-seat cockpit.
Stop making up arguments to just to win them (which you've yet to win anyway) and I'll stop responding.