[sfbayguy]

Originally Posted by bm323

They are known by somewhat different terms and the info appears for a few minutes, then it automatically goes to a video screen

Thank you so much for posting this with all the links, great information~!

[bm323]

I just received reliable info from my SE regarding the 535i. The i-drive may access the chassis showing it on the screen but the chassis may not be configured if the dynamic damper is not an option, ie the software can show the chassis diagram on the screen but there is no hardware to configure it. This is the 535i on display in Singapore and may well be the 535i HighlandPete tested. HighlandPete, please check whether I'm correct, and if correct, the better handling was caused by the sharper steering and throttle response, not the suspension.

[bm323]

TGll who nfnc linked has experienced E60 and f10 (in 18 inch as seen from his profile) both with M sport suspension, and he thinks M sport suspension is fine. And he has been told by Munich that the chassis on sport mode (using VDC?) is stiffer than M sport.

http://forums.5series.net/topic/9728...st__p__1155157

http://forums.5series.net/topic/9728...35ia-pictures/

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by bm323

TGll who nfnc linked has experienced E60 and f10 (in 18 inch as seen from his profile) both with M sport suspension, and he thinks M sport suspension is fine. And he has been told by Munich that the chassis on sport mode (using VDC?) is stiffer than M sport.

http://forums.5series.net/topic/9728...st__p__1155157

http://forums.5series.net/topic/9728...35ia-pictures/

I can't see any of those pics. I need to register there. Don't you have them on your PC to show us or something, please?

Cheers
Robin

[bm323]

I hope it's ok, I'll copy the relevant posts over

First post from thread starter TGII

[quote name='TitangrauII530iA' date='18 April 2010 - 08:54 AM' timestamp='1271598880' post='1155049']
Hello,

Many of you requested pictures - here come the first ones. I detailed the car today with Swissvax Cleaner Fluid and Swissvax Concorso Premium Wax.

The paintwork finishing is much better than in my previous E60. The new type of anthrasite headliner is not exactly my thing - it is semi glossy and I liked the previous type used in E60 more. May be I get used to it though.

My first impression is that the car is much more comfortable also with the M-Sport suspension than the E60 - and still dynamic and sporty - I really like the way it drives.

All electronic devices are far better and nicer than the E60 had, they have really done a good job with the usability of all features.

Happy regards from Finland

TGII
[/quote]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Below is a post where TGII answered some queries

[quote name='TitangrauII530iA' date='18 April 2010 ]

With respect to the ride and handling, you mentioned in one of your earlier post that you found the F10 on adaptive suspension and in "Sports" mode to be more comfortable than the E60 Sport suspension.

For the F10 on the M-Sport suspension:

(a) how comfortable is it when compared to the F10/adaptive suspension/"Sport" mode - is it less or more comfortable?

>>>> I asked this from Munich - they told that it's between normal and sport mode. The biggest difference is that it's missing the active anti roll system

(b) would you say that it is between the "Sport" and "Normal" mode of the F10/adaptive suspension in terms of comfort, that is, harder than the "Normal" mode but softer than the "Sport" mode?

© do you find it to ride to harshly or to "crash" over expansion joints or imperfections in the road (portholes, etc)?

>>>> It's always how you compare it - as I had three E60 with M-Sport suspension and F10 is really not harsh at all compared to E60 with M-Sport.

(d) do you find it to roll much when taking corners?

>>>> No, I find it stabile and really nice to drive. Comfortable and still very solid.

[/quote]
---------------------------------------------
My questions for him based on his answers to the post above, which were not answered.

Hi TGll, when you mentioned that the M Sport suspension is between normal and sport mode, are you referring to between normal and sport mode of a f10 with variable damping control/VDC/dynamic damping control?


And when you say that the difference is the missing active anti-roll system, meaning the M sport suspension does not have the active anti-roll bars as one cannot have M sport suspension with the active anti-roll system (and also VDC) as they are not compatible?


I'm checking on the suspensions to confirm my option for my f10. Thanks.
-----------------------------------------------




A post from another forummer

[quote name='sdg1871' date='18 April 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1271623161' post='1155230']
First of all, congrats to the OP on a beautiful looking F10.

As far as suspension choices go, I would never get a 5 Series without the sports suspension. To me, a BMW does not drive like a BMW without the sports suspension. I have yet to drive the F10, but the E60 handles and corners like an absolute pig without the sports suspension. I have found the handling/cornering characteristics of the E60 without the sports suspension to be appalling -- tons of body roll and limited grip. My mother's base 2009 Acura TL corners 100 times better than an E60 with the standard non-sport suspension. If you value handling, get the sport suspension.
[/quote]
------------------------------------------------
This is a funny one from another forummer

[quote name='Ricracing' date='19 April 2010 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1271695108' post='1155706']


My days of lowered M suspensions are over now.
I want my girlfriends teeth, tits etc. stay where they belong.
[/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------
TGII's last post

[quote name='TitangrauII530iA' date='20 April 2010 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1271778200' post='1156524']
Thanks for all compliments,

I really like the F10 535iA with M-Sport suspension! Firm and comfortable at the same time. One more reason to appreciate the new F10: the paint finish is of much better quality than the E60 had.

400 Nm from 1200 rpm is also something that makes driving relaxing. Today one customer asked me whether the car is hybrid because he was not familiar with the BMW inline6 turbinlike sound...He is not a car fanatic like me

Best regards,

Jukka
[/quote]

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by bm323

I just received reliable info from my SE regarding the 535i. The i-drive may access the chassis showing it on the screen but the chassis may not be configured if the dynamic damper is not an option, ie the software can show the chassis diagram on the screen but there is no hardware to configure it. This is the 535i on display in Singapore and may well be the 535i HighlandPete tested. HighlandPete, please check whether I'm correct, and if correct, the better handling was caused by the sharper steering and throttle response, not the suspension.

Back from the garage and yes you are correct, Drive Dynamic Control will only adjust the chassis, with either Integral Active Steering and/or Adaptive Drive or VDC.

DDC which comes with the sport auto, does make the car more agile, in sport setting, due to adjustments to steering, throttle and drive train settings, only.

The Dealer Principal got in contact with a guy in BMW and they came back confirming the above. The car I tried and found the differences, confirmed by the Dealer Principal himself driving the car, does not have either IAS (2VH) or Adaptive Drive (2VA).

So the 19" wheels, plus the sport auto, (2TB) which comes with DDC, and individual configurable settings in sport mode, is making a better car from the standard set up. (And it is not just me sensing the car has a better set of dynamics).

I'll write a bit more, when I've a few minutes.

HighlandPete

[carl_d]

Originally Posted by bm323

They are known by somewhat different terms and the info appears for a few minutes, then it automatically goes to a video screen

dynamic drive under active chassis http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...=dynamic_drive

electronic damper control http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...damper_control

active steering http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...ctive_steering

also HiFi Professional LOGIC7 System http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...ssional_logic7

Thank you for posting.

However, this adds to the lack of clarity from BMW!

Is dynamic drive, under active chassis, the same as Adaptive Drive (option 2VA)?
Is active steering the same as Integral Active Steering (option 2VH)?
Is electronic damper control the same as VDC (option 223)?

I suggest they are but given the different names they may not be the same? Like many on here, I'm not keen to spending £40K on a car without fully understanding the ride/handling options

The whole F10 chassis options information (or lack of) is a complete mess!

BMW needs to step-up and sort this one out.

[carl_d]

more from customer service...

Thank you for your further correspondence.

We do not have a system under the name of Active Drive, however, we do have Adaptive Drive or Active Cruise Control. Information on both of these can be found on the link provided in my previous email.

Integral Active Steering

Variable-ratio four-wheel-steering system that allows for reduced effort and greater manoeuvrability at low and parking speeds, with enhanced stability and passenger comfort at higher speeds. Includes Drive Dynamic Control with three mode settings: Normal, Sport and Sport+.

Variable Damper Control (VDC)

Includes Drive Dynamic Control with four mode settings: Comfort, Normal, Sport and Sport +. Enables adjustment of steering feel, throttle response, engine response and suspension settings.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any further queries.

[carl_d]

Originally Posted by bm323

TGll who nfnc linked has experienced E60 and f10 (in 18 inch as seen from his profile) both with M sport suspension, and he thinks M sport suspension is fine. And he has been told by Munich that the chassis on sport mode (using VDC?) is stiffer than M sport.

http://forums.5series.net/topic/9728...st__p__1155157

http://forums.5series.net/topic/9728...35ia-pictures/

M-Sport suspension is option 704. Cannot order in UK

[Erasmus]

I've read another review (new one) of the 523i in magazine Auto Review (NL). They've tested a 523i on standard suspension to be sure how the car drives without all the electronic chassis adds. This is very important for the Dutch market, because most of 5 series sold can't have the full package (only the 535i, 530d and 550i, not the 523i, 528i, 520d and 525d).

There findings:
- BMW stepped away from the corner monger happy car;
- It is a scaled down 7 (comfort wise);
- Interiour top of the bill;
- Standard suspension clears all road imperfections in a beautiful way;
- When eyes closed you could think you were driving a Mercedes (not sure if that's positive );
- very comfortable, but you need some electronic chassis adds to get the heavy 5 to corner like the old one.

Conclusion:
- top class, very comfortable (with STANDARD suspension). Scaled down 7.

So, Autoweek.NL, Carenthousiast.com and (now) Auto Review NL magazine all say that there is NOTHING wrong with the standard suspension, only that - if you're used to the E60 models - you could need some elec. adds. All were on 18 RFT.

I am happy that the standard suspension is more set for comfort. When I want to drift and drive fast on a circuit I will buy a M3. Furthermore, it seems to me that some personal opinions could be based on former experience (E60 models) or subjective to the 5 series with elec. adds.


http://www.fnl.nl/uploads/tx_ttprodu...oud_ok_sde.pdf

Page 116: "Wat we willen weten is hoe de nieuwe BMW 5-serie rijdt
als hij niet is overladen met elektronica die zijn rijeigenschappen
beïnvloedt." which means: "what we want to know is how the new 5-series drives when it's not loaded with electronics which influence it's driving and handling"

[HighlandPete]

From the horse's mouth... we had a communication from BMW UK Product Marketing, to the Dealer Principal at my garage.

Drive Dynamic Control.

If we order Sport Automatic Transmission, 2TB, or Integral Active Steering, 2VH, we get Drive Dynamic Control... with Normal, Sport & Sport+

If we opt for, (or add) Variable Damper Control (VDC), 233, or Adaptive Drive (VDC + Dynamic Drive), 2VA, we get Drive Dynamic Control with Comfort, Normal, Sport & Sport+

So the brochure is correct on page 52, under the '0ptional' Drive Dynamic Control definition.

In I-Drive the 'Sport mode' can be configured individually from the sport program menu and saved for the remote button control. But it only configures the features installed, even though the menu is possibly showing more options.

The user manual says:

Driving Dynamic Control*

SPORT

Resolute sport configuration of the chassis for greater agility when driving, with maximum driving stability.

The program can be configured individually. The configuration is saved for the remote control currently in use.

My conclusion:

It does seem that 'chassis' is used as a broad term, as it is used when referencing steering, throttle and auto transmission. Plus it is used when Integral Active Steering, Adaptive Drive (or its components) are added. The use of * (for the additional options) in the manual, appears to confirm this wider scope.

HighlandPete

[Erasmus]

The subject of this thread was the claim that the standard suspension wasn't up for the task (Autocar).
On-topic pls

[HighlandPete]

I had several conversations today with the Dealer Principal at my garage. This was interspersed with him talking with BMW, getting information emailed to the garage, interrogating the I-drive menus and he took the car out for a test drive with different individual configurations on the Drive Dynamic Control, to test the drive in 'sport' mode.

He confirmed the car changes feel and is 'tightened up'. A much better drive.

This only confirms his opinion stated last week, the car is better for the sport auto and DDC, the ability to press the sport button and get a more agile car. Then he has tracked the F10, under BMW's supervision, when over the radio they (as drivers) were instructed to push the buttons and feel the differences. And that was in the car, specced as the garage demo 535i.

He is convinced some of it is the 19" wheels that help here, he believes the cars ride better on the 19" wheels, better than 18".

What did I find last week? Same things, now we know the spec, hope it helps a bit.

Knowing my driving roads, he recommended I have Adaptive Drive, along with the sport autobox. Wheels? He wasn't sure... we agreed more feedback will come in before I have to commit for the F11 touring, so a bit more time to learn what works best.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Erasmus

The subject of this thread was the claim that the standard suspension wasn't up for the task (Autocar).
On-topic pls

I still don't believe it is up to the task, for an experienced BMW user. The danger as I see it, once we get used to it, after already feeling a flawed drive, it will be .. "I wish I had specced the so and so".

Then it is all subjective, as has been said before. I personally don't always see standard suspension as more comfortable, I'm not alone in this either, a soft car can bounce and bob about, on some roads, and feel very uncomfortable and uncontrolled. Whereas a slightly firmer drive is more controlled and composed, therefore driver and passengers feel more comfortable and relaxed.

After experiencing the two different steering feels, the more precise one is the one I want to drive. I don't do 'vague' or 'numb' at mid position.

HighlandPete

[carl_d]

Originally Posted by Erasmus

The subject of this thread was the claim that the standard suspension wasn't up for the task (Autocar).
On-topic pls

Its related and okay.

[bm323]

Thank you very much for the helpful information, HighlandPete. Can you pls let me know whether your principal dealer mention the driving/handling difference between the F10 having the VDC option 223 (which can tighten the chassis without the anti-roll bars), and adaptive drive option 2VA (ie with the anti-roll bars in addition)? I suppose the only difference is that VDC on sport mode will tighten the chassis causing it to roll less, but with the anti-roll bars, it will roll even less?

Did he mention the difference between having M sport suspension, and VDC pls? The difference between M sport suspension and adaptive drive option 2VA? If I’m correct, either the VDC (on sport mode) or M sport suspension will tighten the chassis giving a firmer ride, but they both work differently, the former the dampener and the latter the spring. Both do not have anti-roll bars. Will VDC on sport mode give the F10 a firmer ride?

[Robin_NL]

And again I come to the conclusion : It's all about personal preferences and how you 'see' the 5 compared to the E or A6 or even a M3(like I do)

A carmag journalist has it's personal preferences AND a SE too. And I´m not the guy to believe their stories instantly. Driving is the only way.
For all of us.

Cheers
Robin

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by bm323

Can you pls let me know whether your principal dealer mention the driving/handling difference between the F10 having the VDC option 223 (which can tighten the chassis without the anti-roll bars), and adaptive drive option 2VA (ie with the anti-roll bars in addition)? I suppose the only difference is that VDC on sport mode will tighten the chassis causing it to roll less, but with the anti-roll bars, it will roll even less?

Did he mention the difference between having M sport suspension, and VDC pls? The difference between M sport suspension and adaptive drive option 2VA? If I’m correct, either the VDC (on sport mode) or M sport suspension will tighten the chassis giving a firmer ride, but they both work differently, the former the dampener and the latter the spring. Both do not have anti-roll bars. Will VDC on sport mode give the F10 a firmer ride?

First, we didn't talk about M-sport suspension, as it is not yet available for the F10/11 in the UK, not even a sport suspension option. The electronic trickery is the way we get the current SE models to have a sport suspension. I'm assured it is a level up and won't be disappointed.

As to the ride, with Adaptive Drive, it should do everything we want. As both elements are continuously being monitored and adjusted, we will get the best of both worlds, comfort when it matters and sure footed composure when needed.

I know a guy who has an E65 7-series (750i) with the dynamic package and for large car it drives like a much smaller, 'well sorted' BMW. The roll bars only stiffen up when needed, so you don't get the negatives of sport type ARBs, when you want a settled drive. Same with the dampers, they stiffen up as you load them, whatever the setting. It is not a soggy mess in comfort mode, as you drive harder it all comes together.

I will be testing a car with Adaptive Drive, but may be a while, as there is nothing up here with the right spec' at the moment.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

And again I come to the conclusion : It's all about personal preferences and how you 'see' the 5 compared to the E or A6 or even a M3(like I do)

A carmag journalist has it's personal preferences AND a SE too. And I´m not the guy to believe their stories instantly. Driving is the only way.
For all of us.

Cheers
Robin

Absolutely, a test drive is what the journos are recommending as well, so that there will NOT be disappointment.

Personally, I've found the Autocar magazine to be pretty much on the money with BMW cars over the years. I've just dug out a couple of issues, one for the E39 528i when first tested.. with the headline "New 5-Series so close to perfect". Also for the E60 530d, didn't even get a headline. Their verdict...

AutoCar Verdict E60 530d SE

And so Tuesday September 2 2003 might just hold the same significance as Wednesday April 17 1996, (E39 test report) but for different reasons. It will be remembered as the time when BMW first tried to apply its new methodology to a volume seller and standards slipped ever so slightly, it’s critical to remember that for all its obvious short-comings, the 530d still nearly climbs to the top of the class because its engine and gearbox are remarkable, and its build quality is the stuff of Mercedes envy. However, the chassis and, in particular, its lack of ride comfort are flawed. Much of this must be blamed on the run-flat tyres: fitted with these the 530d is an eight-star car, whereas on normal rubber it would be a nine-star car. Specifying your 5-series will be a tricky, and critical exercise.

Both the reviews, E39 and E60 have proved over time to be pretty well spot on, when you read the full test reports.

With the current F10, I have to say I'm very much of the same view as AutoCar and WhatCar, thus far, from my test drives against reading their test comments (after) driving the cars. The standard steering is not good enough for average UK roads and the road is coming back through into the cabin, via the body and corrupted steering in a negative way. I've said it before, but still suspect the tyres are the real culprit here.

HighlandPete

[bm323]

Thanks much, HighlandPete.

These exchanges have enabled me to understand the options much better (not complete, as BMW has not provided all information). Test driving is definitely a must, if one gets to test drive different F10s with the different options. Without understanding the options, one may not even know what to ask for to test/during testing. In short, it's like many things in life, better to have both theory and practice.

[Erasmus]

ok, I've read an personal opinion here and there in this thread about the standard suspension. TODAY, i've bought the AutoWeek magazine. A trio test between the BMW 523i, Merc E 250CGI and the Audi A6 2.0TFSI. The research question was, if the car without the elec. adds was better than the other cars.
The results from this test (the THIRD test with a car with standard suspension, on 18 inch RFT):

- even so comfortable as the Merc, without losing the dynamics;
- WAY better handling than the Audi A6;
- The best automatic gear;
- The standard suspension is enough for the most buyers and is the best in it class (they even said if they are even wotth the extra money- and remember that they tested the full optioned car before). Maybe, ultra die hards want more elec. adds. They could choose the Active Steering;
- etc.

http://www.autoweek.nl/magazineartikel.php?id=13091

RobinHood - also a Dutch member on this forum - can read all about it in today's AutoWeek magazine (in the Netherlands). So, to summarize:

- AutoWeek (video test 523i, standard suspension, 18RFT): very positive;
- Auto Review (magazine test 523i, also): very positive;
- AutoWeek (magazine, triotest 523i, E-class, Audi A6): BMW scores the most points (*)

(*) Quotes from this test:

- "Beautiful materials, Fine finishing, Good engines, Good steering, Good automative gearbox and even the legroom in the back is better than before";
- "the E-class and the BMW 5 have taken steps, which the Audi A6 has clearly not taken. They are way beyond on all fronts. ... The battle between the Merc E and the BMW 5 takes place on the highest level. The E is more Merc than ever, the BMW 5 has taken and expetional step forward toward more comfort without loosing dynamics. Small things like the 5 step automatic and the heavy nose in corners are lesser points for the Merc. The BMW 5 makes no mistake whatsoever, and that makes him to be the winner in this test"

PS I don't work for BMW

PS2 Please note that in all three test above with standard suspension there were NONE arguments made about the suspension being: 'whobly', couldn't handle dips in the road, etc. All on the 18 RFT.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Erasmus

PS2 Please note that in all three test above with standard suspension there were NONE arguments made about the suspension being: 'whobly', couldn't handle dips in the road, etc. All on the 18 RFT.

I clearly hear what you are saying and I'm wondering if we are still experiencing what has been debated here in the UK for many years. "Not tuned for UK roads".

Many car models (not just BMW) over the years have not worked well on UK roads, in fact I was discussing this with a BMW saleman on Tuesday. I know BMW brought 3-series cars over here and even run then up here into Scotland, passing the dealer I use, as they were checking out the UK road issue for fine tuning the suspension.

I've been looking at some reference material from a suspension engineer, and one fact discussed is, different markets and car makers have different damping requirements. German engineered cars typically have more concern for primary ride and high speed use and therefore have a 'busy' secondary ride. On UK roads this often translates to 'road copy' and can cause a tendancy to 'roll' and cause passenger discomfort, even head toss.

Over the years it was well known that in the British motor industry, the suspension engineers in companies like Rover and Jaguar had the edge on getting damping sorted for UK roads. Subtle mechanical compromises do work, as Jaguar engineers have proved. Even Ford have, through some bad experinces over here, got it right these days. To the point that VW head hunted some Ford suspension engineers to sort the Mk5 Golf, after the Mk4 Golf got slated here, for the poor suspension dynamics. The Mk4 was made more comfortable, but it translated to a soggy, unpredictable mess, on a lot of UK road surfaces. The Mk5 made no such mistake.

I can see why adjustable systems will appeal to the UK user, (and testers), we get a bit of control for the road types we use. I'm not sure a "one size fits all" applies to all car markets.

HighlandPete