[grimlock]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

+1

I remember some Citroens with positive mid position, wierd feeling. Extreme example I know, but what we are talking of for a more positive centre force, is much more than the EPS, it is the whole steering design and setup which sets the mid positional forces.

HighlandPete

'sporty' wrt. to steering feel, ex. the rest of the entire suspension+other steering compenents
hows that?

[grimlock]

i refer to stronger steering centering force as 'sporty' because it returns the car to a straight line quicker/stronger which is suited for quick steering movements (='sporty' driving), as opposed to languishing in turns, slow entry and slow exits ... does this make sense or not?

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

+1

I remember some Citroens with positive mid position, wierd feeling. Extreme example I know, but what we are talking of for a more positive centre force, is much more than the EPS, it is the whole steering design and setup which sets the mid positional forces.

HighlandPete

yeah, the 'problem' with the overall steering feel could lie anywhere with any of those other compenents of the suspension+steering system.. i was just refering to one single issue, which could be software modded
cheers

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I'm not sure we are talking the same thing here. I'm talking of recent 1, 3 and 5 series cars. The E39 is a car from the 1990's (nothing wrong with that), but we've had another generation of cars since then, which have been hard and unforgiving to passengers and drivers alike. Many loyal BMW drivers have expressed their views to BMW about ride comfort and desiring less harshness to the drive. Particularly as guys like you and myself did/do drive E39 cars, which I agree have a near perfect blend of dynamics. I personally ran a 540i on M-Tech suspension for over 45k miles, was totally satisfied with the ride and driving dynamics.

I too believe RFTs have a big part to play in the harshness, on anything but the best road quality. Difficult to hide their characteristics, even on a softer running chassis.

So to make it clear, IMO for many existing and new customers, the latest F10/11 cars being 'softened down' is a big step forward for BMW ownership. Steering that you have to think about, is a different issue.

HighlandPete

Admittedly I have limited knowledge of bmw/car engineering .. but one obvious thing i want to point out again is the front suspension of the f10 is significantly changed from the e60. Although i dont really know what 'double wish bone' means exactly, but the dampers are linked to a lower arm, rather than directly to the axle hub (please forgive the engineering butchery )
I would have to think this significantly changes how the car 'feels' in the front, susp+steering wise
It even says so in the brochure: .."dampers placed to remove longitudinal+latitudinal forces.."
Although I have not driven a X5 or the 7, I dread to presume I already know what it feels like (because its on the f10!)

pls bash /correct

[grimlock]

Having whipped my car a bit in big dipping turns, I cant shake off the feeling of an SUV-like handling to the front end. It handles perfectly, but just not what u expect .. it handles like the damn X5! People have commented how well it handles for an SUV, well i guess the f10 is kinda like that, just a little closer to the ground .. and the 'feel' (bmw?) aspect is GONE .. its BMW in a way - the X5 way !!!

[grimlock]

somebody pls drive the f10 with the X5 or 7 back to back .. and whip it in the corners..
X5/7 owners would prob not notice anything amiss, because they are used to it (or like it, dread), but 1,3,e60 owners should notice a big difference.. anyone?

[BimmerGuyFL]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Having whipped my car a bit in big dipping turns, I cant shake off the feeling of an SUV-like handling to the front end. It handles perfectly, but just not what u expect .. it handles like the damn X5! People have commented how well it handles for an SUV, well i guess the f10 is kinda like that, just a little closer to the ground .. and the 'feel' (bmw?) aspect is GONE .. its BMW in a way - the X5 way !!!

Well the BMW X5 switched to a new Double Wish Bone front end suspension design back in 2007 for the new E70 model instead of the traditional McPherson Struts that BMW used for years. This new Front Suspension design has been implemented in the X6, the F01 7-series, the F10 5-series, the F07 5-GT, as well will be used for the upcoming 6-series models.

BMW will still keep the traditional double lower control arm/McPherson Strut design for the new F20 1-series, F30 3-series, X1, and the just released F25 X3.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by grimlock

i refer to stronger steering centering force as 'sporty' because it returns the car to a straight line quicker/stronger which is suited for quick steering movements (='sporty' driving), as opposed to languishing in turns, slow entry and slow exits ... does this make sense or not?

I know what you are referring to, some like positive self centering and/or a 'fast' steering rack, problem is others don't, as it can feel darty or go-kart like. I suppose BMW have opted for a compromise and added the electronic means to 'stiffen up' the steering. Now whether EPS (as we know it) can truely be 'sharpened' to make it faster responding is another question.

I think it is a bit like the ride definitions, for passive and active suspension components, we have to say they are 'different', even if the relative stiffness is the same value. We know they don't feel the same. Whether the steering can be tuned to give the same feeling as we are used to, may again have to fall into the 'different' status.

The new front suspension BMW has developed again will feel different, you just can't change how the forces are absorbed through the system, without feeling the difference. To a first time BMW driver they will know no different, but model on model users will detect the changes, problem is we don't always like the results of changes, when we can compare.

Being more concise, we have two totally different chassis in the E60 and F10. The question is, has BMW moved on and will leave the tuners to get the old feel back, for those who want it?

HighlandfPete

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by BimmerGuyFL

Well the BMW X5 switched to a new Double Wish Bone front end suspension design back in 2007 for the new E70 model instead of the traditional McPherson Struts that BMW used for years. This new Front Suspension design has been implemented in the X6, the F01 7-series, the F10 5-series, the F07 5-GT, as well will be used for the upcoming 6-series models.

BMW will still keep the traditional double lower control arm/McPherson Strut design for the new F20 1-series, F30 3-series, X1, and the just released F25 X3.

Cool! So the new 6 is going along with the f10 and getting a new front suspension.. i guess u can kiss the sport-oriented buyers goodbye, oh wait, what is the average profile of the 6 buyer? Haha, i wished they kept the old set-up on the f10, even if it is a little awkward being so big and all
Its nice to know there are still BMW 'elders' hanging around to us the way

[JOHNBMWM5]

Right tomorrow I am testing the BMW f10 3.0 Diesel estate in M-Sport guise. Although mine is on order as the 550i m sport.
I will be getting straight out of my E90 M3, so I will be able to "put to bed" from my point of view this "Steering issue". I will try it in all modes ( M-Sport) and report back. One thing I have been assured of is it's NOT as bad as some have said; this will be checked out tomorrow.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I know what you are referring to, some like positive self centering and/or a 'fast' steering rack, problem is others don't, as it can feel darty or go-kart like. I suppose BMW have opted for a compromise and added the electronic means to 'stiffen up' the steering. Now whether EPS (as we know it) can truely be 'sharpened' to make it faster responding is another question.

I think it is a bit like the ride definitions, for passive and active suspension components, we have to say they are 'different', even if the relative stiffness is the same value. We know they don't feel the same. Whether the steering can be tuned to give the same feeling as we are used to, may again have to fall into the 'different' status.

The new front suspension BMW has developed again will feel different, you just can't change how the forces are absorbed through the system, without feeling the difference. To a first time BMW driver they will know no different, but model on model users will detect the changes, problem is we don't always like the results of changes, when we can compare.

Being more concise, we have two totally different chassis in the E60 and F10. The question is, has BMW moved on and will leave the tuners to get the old feel back, for those who want it?

HighlandfPete

Or perhaps we will have to buy Minis if we wanted the feel back - I hope it doesnt come to this!
I agree it would have been impractical to keep the old susp. setup of the e60 over to the f10, when the e60 was already getting complaints (in some circles) on ride quality. Given that must ppl just hop in and drive and couldnt care less about the 'finer' aspects of driving, I guess this is a trend likely to persist.
I can't shake off the feeling of the "flattened SUV" .. it looks so damn intimidating on the outside, but once you turn the wheel -uh oh . Like youre secretly wearing red underwear or something
Now that I think about it, even if I get the best possible dampers+springs for this setup, its probably going to matter less than where the damn damper is attached to the suspension!

[N16E]

As an F10 driver who was suffering horrendous steering feel, I am pleased to report that since the new steering rack (and sneeky sofware upgrade, because I had some new features appear)), after a 300 mile round trip mine feels a different car. And for what it's worth the 2 other F10's I've driven were also perfectly fine. Don't get me wrong I think there is an EPS software issue, above 46mph damping is introduced to make the car easier to drive at speed, the cogging I experienced at speed could have been down to the mapping algorithm for damping and the servo motor characteristics not being matched.

There is a big difference between the F10 not feeling as "sporty" as the E60, and a faulty steering system.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by N16E

As an F10 driver who was suffering horrendous steering feel, I am pleased to report that since the new steering rack (and sneeky sofware upgrade, because I had some new features appear)), after a 300 mile round trip mine feels a different car. And for what it's worth the 2 other F10's I've driven were also perfectly fine. Don't get me wrong I think there is an EPS software issue, above 46mph damping is introduced to make the car easier to drive at speed, the cogging I experienced at speed could have been down to the mapping algorithm for damping and the servo motor characteristics not being matched.

There is a big difference between the F10 not feeling as "sporty" as the E60, and a faulty steering system.

Great news maybe mine which is being built in december 2010 will come "FIXED".

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I'm not sure we are talking the same thing here. I'm talking of recent 1, 3 and 5 series cars. The E39 is a car from the 1990's (nothing wrong with that), but we've had another generation of cars since then, which have been hard and unforgiving to passengers and drivers alike. Many loyal BMW drivers have expressed their views to BMW about ride comfort and desiring less harshness to the drive. Particularly as guys like you and myself did/do drive E39 cars, which I agree have a near perfect blend of dynamics. I personally ran a 540i on M-Tech suspension for over 45k miles, was totally satisfied with the ride and driving dynamics.

I too believe RFTs have a big part to play in the harshness, on anything but the best road quality. Difficult to hide their characteristics, even on a softer running chassis.

So to make it clear, IMO for many existing and new customers, the latest F10/11 cars being 'softened down' is a big step forward for BMW ownership. Steering that you have to think about, is a different issue.

HighlandPete

What you say makes sense to me. The one E60 I drove was a 535i with run flats. It was a harsh ride. Compared to that, the F10 is more comfortable which will please a lot of customers. The run flats are part of the issue. BMW should certainly understand that run flats they choose for the F10 are an integral part of the suspension. IMO, changing suspension from the "perfect blend of driving dynamics" of the E39 to compensate for run flat tires is a factor in why I don't like the F10 ride quality. I know it's my issue, but to me it is sad. BMW should remember from where it came.

[bimmerfrei]

Originally Posted by N16E

As an F10 driver who was suffering horrendous steering feel, I am pleased to report that since the new steering rack (and sneeky sofware upgrade, because I had some new features appear)), after a 300 mile round trip mine feels a different car. And for what it's worth the 2 other F10's I've driven were also perfectly fine. Don't get me wrong I think there is an EPS software issue, above 46mph damping is introduced to make the car easier to drive at speed, the cogging I experienced at speed could have been down to the mapping algorithm for damping and the servo motor characteristics not being matched.

There is a big difference between the F10 not feeling as "sporty" as the E60, and a faulty steering system.

I'm having a meeting with the service manager at my BMW dealer next week. Since I'm no good at technics, could you please tell a little bit more about the replacement of the steering rack. I have to communicate with this guy in Swedish, so I have to know what to ask for. Is there any possibility that you could post some sort of work order or anything like that?

/Christian

[N16E]

Originally Posted by bimmerfrei

I'm having a meeting with the service manager at my BMW dealer next week. Since I'm no good at technics, could you please tell a little bit more about the replacement of the steering rack. I have to communicate with this guy in Swedish, so I have to know what to ask for. Is there any possibility that you could post some sort of work order or anything like that?

/Christian

Christian, are you sure you need a new steering rack? this is a major component which needs to be ordered from BMW, If you have the same fault I had (lack of feel and constant need correct at 70/80 mph) I suggest you ask them to test drive the car for at least 10 miles on the motorway and feel the problem for themselves, if they are any good they will know what to do...good luck...

[grimlock]

Here's another random dump:

I had my steering turned all the way so that the wheel was at its maximum turn, the outside wheel/tire was perfectly flat wrt. the ground, and the inside wheel was severely on its outside (wrt. car, inside wrt. turn). How much is 'normal' ?
Its too early to tell (@~1km) but this could lead to quite severe outside tire wear.
The front tires have quite a bit of negative camber (top of tire facing out) and the back tires seem to have the same degree of positive camber. I guess this is the factory understeer? Its quite annoying, I would want to try to change it to see how it affects the drive. Any brave souls want to reverse the camber settings? (Pls test safely.. hoho)

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

What you say makes sense to me. The one E60 I drove was a 535i with run flats. It was a harsh ride. Compared to that, the F10 is more comfortable which will please a lot of customers. The run flats are part of the issue. BMW should certainly understand that run flats they choose for the F10 are an integral part of the suspension. IMO, changing suspension from the "perfect blend of driving dynamics" of the E39 to compensate for run flat tires is a factor in why I don't like the F10 ride quality. I know it's my issue, but to me it is sad. BMW should remember from where it came.

They should have just kept the e60 front susp. and gave the car factory koni FSD dampers to plush out the ride and keep the drivability. But no, they had to make it into a SUV
We cant rip out the whole damn front susp. like we can give it new springs/dampers

[bimmerfrei]

Originally Posted by N16E

Christian, are you sure you need a new steering rack? this is a major component which needs to be ordered from BMW, If you have the same fault I had (lack of feel and constant need correct at 70/80 mph) I suggest you ask them to test drive the car for at least 10 miles on the motorway and feel the problem for themselves, if they are any good they will know what to do...good luck...

Well, no. However I'm taking the service manager and one of his mechanics on a 45 minute drive, so I will have plenty of time to show them how the car acts. Will show them how it pulls on "bad" roads and then let them drive it to, hopefully, notice the vague feeling. Like I've previously written, it goes pretty straight on good highways but there is zero feedback and it never "comes to rest" in a centre position. Needs constant adjustments which takes away a lot of the driving pleasure since you're thinking about the steering only. Someone said SUV-steering, I think that is a very precise description.

/Christian

[Touring]

Does anyone with FWD have the problem with the steering? Its many 550ix on the forum.

I dont know why, but my steering is fine. Was driving in Germany last week, was going at top speed on the autobahn, I could steer the car with one finger on the wheel. Absolutly stable.

[bimmerfrei]

I swapped from run flat tyres to ordinary tyres two days ago. This was definitely a change for the better. Even though the car is still pulling on some roads, the feeling is much better. The vagueness I experienced with the run flats is more or less gone. Now I can feel what's going on with the front wheels. The car feels lighter and easier to control. Taking the car to the dealer on Friday to once and for all sort out the pulling (hopefully).

/Christian

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by johnbmw6

Right tomorrow I am testing the BMW f10 3.0 Diesel estate in M-Sport guise. Although mine is on order as the 550i m sport.
I will be getting straight out of my E90 M3, so I will be able to "put to bed" from my point of view this "Steering issue". I will try it in all modes ( M-Sport) and report back. One thing I have been assured of is it's NOT as bad as some have said; this will be checked out tomorrow.

Did you take the test drive and, if so, what are your thoughts on the steering?