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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 BMW 5-Series (F10) Forums General 5-Series Sedan and Wagon (F10 / F11) Forum CBS (Condition Based Service) Brake Indicator
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      06-18-2015, 05:39 PM   #1
dbs600
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CBS (Condition Based Service) Brake Indicator

My car states rear brakes are due in 6k miles.

Is this based upon a longevity estimate or upon a sensor reporting actual remaining life?

The brakes are fine, but I’ve noticed a small drop in performance recently; need to press the pedal down further to come to a complete stop and need to hold it there to not roll.

The car’s been through four summer’s already, during which I’ve never noticed same, but could this be weather / temperature related?

Thank you!
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      06-18-2015, 08:06 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600
My car states rear brakes are due in 6k miles.

Is this based upon a longevity estimate or upon a sensor reporting actual remaining life?

The brakes are fine, but I’ve noticed a small drop in performance recently; need to press the pedal down further to come to a complete stop and need to hold it there to not roll.

The car’s been through four summer’s already, during which I’ve never noticed same, but could this be weather / temperature related?

Thank you!
Yes, the CBS indicator predicts the time when your brakes should be serviced.

In essence, it's forms a part of your contract between you and BMW.

However, dealers are often quick to claim CBS is "flakey" when it comes to brake pads and rotors. (They won't service them if there is too much meat on them).

Yet, when it comes to an oil change, the dealers claim the CBS system is flawless and they won't change the oil early---even if you happen to have the car opened up at the dealers for some other reason.
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      06-18-2015, 10:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7 View Post
Yes, the CBS indicator predicts the time when your brakes should be serviced.

In essence, it's forms a part of your contract between you and BMW.

However, dealers are often quick to claim CBS is "flakey" when it comes to brake pads and rotors. (They won't service them if there is too much meat on them).

Yet, when it comes to an oil change, the dealers claim the CBS system is flawless and they won't change the oil early---even if you happen to have the car opened up at the dealers for some other reason.
Thanks for the prompt reply!

So is it based upon mileage after reset or upon sensors that provide data estimates (or a combo of both)?

Thanks again.
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      06-19-2015, 02:20 AM   #4
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Yes I have found it estimates around 40k miles on rear pads. The car will then get to a point when the estimated time hits zero, I generally keep driving it as I know there is a brake sensor that throws up another warning in the speedo instrument cluster when the brake sensor is activated.

I had my rear pads replaced on Tuesday, idrive warning hit zero two weeks ago and the brake sensor warning came on last week. By the time I got them replaced I was 275 miles over the idrive warning and the car had 39,700 miles on it. I think that's pretty accurate and I drive my car pretty hard every day.
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      06-19-2015, 05:53 AM   #5
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The brakes use a combination of mileage, fuel usage and sensors to determine the interval displayed.

These cars have 2 stage sensors.
So with new pads the car just uses estimates to determine the interval, then later the first stage of the sensor is worn through, so the car corrects its estimate because now it knows exactly how much pad is left instead of estimating it.

The car then displays its 2nd estimate untill the 2nd stage of the sensor is worn, which is at about 3mm. When this is reached you get a permanent indicator telling you the pads need changing

Dealers will also check the pads at certain services and will replace if they have 3,5mm left.


So this is the basic sequence for new pads
1) Estimated mileage life remaining based on new pad.
2) First sensors wears and corrects estimation.
3) Estimated mileage life remaining based on update from sensor 1.
4) 2nd Sensor worn and full time change pads warning displayed.
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      06-19-2015, 07:09 AM   #6
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Interesting that his subject has been raised, as I have issue with the CBS estimate for my rear brake pads.

I'm due for a service next week and will be raising what is adrift with my car's figure. I'm at 25,500 miles and CBS is showing 7,000 miles to rear pad replacement. I've measured the pad thickness and it is ~8mm. I understand new pad thickness is ~12.7mm, therefore for 25,000 miles pads are worn down about 5mm. I estimate I should get at least another 20,000 miles before pads are down to 3 - 3.5mm.

I'm not a heavy brake user in my conditions, according to the service record rear pads were reported to be 9mm at <12,000 miles. So according to my estimate they have worn less than 2mm in about 14,000 miles.

I never had the car until 6,000 miles, so I'm guessing the BMW HQ driver was braking much more when the car was 'collecting' the initial data for estimating pad wear. But hasn't re-estimated the wear rate since that time. The front pads are still in good fettle with 46,000 miles on the CBS countdown.

I'm sure my garage will simply reset the CBS for the pads, (once they have checked them) as I don't want warnings way before I know the pads are worn down to replacement thickness.

BTW, my last BMW (E91 330d) I had new, at 52,000 miles was still on original pads with the rear pads (6mm) still indicating much more life.

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      06-19-2015, 08:13 AM   #7
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After I posted this morning I checked idrive on the way to work to see what estimated mileage was shown for the rear pads now that they have been changed and the counter has been reset. For some reason it shows 19k till a change, although I just got almost 40k out of the previous ones... so I am hoping that this will adjust as the car analysis the brake usage/the step one brake sensor reading is made.

Interestingly I had the front pads changed around 8 months ago and this is showing as 28k till they need changing.
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      06-19-2015, 11:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Beast View Post
After I posted this morning I checked idrive on the way to work to see what estimated mileage was shown for the rear pads now that they have been changed and the counter has been reset. For some reason it shows 19k till a change, although I just got almost 40k out of the previous ones... so I am hoping that this will adjust as the car analysis the brake usage/the step one brake sensor reading is made.

Interestingly I had the front pads changed around 8 months ago and this is showing as 28k till they need changing.
They should adjust over time
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      06-19-2015, 11:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post

BTW, my last BMW (E91 330d) I had new, at 52,000 miles was still on original pads with the rear pads (6mm) still indicating much more life.

Guess you do a lot of highway type driving ?

I look after a couple BMW's that just drive around town all day and will never see such high mileage for brake pads since they are on the brakes all the time, unlike highway driving where you use very little braking for long distances.
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      06-19-2015, 05:03 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by E90Fleet View Post
Guess you do a lot of highway type driving ?

I look after a couple BMW's that just drive around town all day and will never see such high mileage for brake pads since they are on the brakes all the time, unlike highway driving where you use very little braking for long distances.

Yes easy rural driving, where brakes don't really get enough use. Winter time I have to use them more, simply to keep corrosion at bay.

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      06-20-2015, 06:59 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete
Interesting that his subject has been raised, as I have issue with the CBS estimate for my rear brake pads.

I'm due for a service next week and will be raising what is adrift with my car's figure. I'm at 25,500 miles and CBS is showing 7,000 miles to rear pad replacement. I've measured the pad thickness and it is ~8mm. I understand new pad thickness is ~12.7mm, therefore for 25,000 miles pads are worn down about 5mm. I estimate I should get at least another 20,000 miles before pads are down to 3 - 3.5mm.

I'm not a heavy brake user in my conditions, according to the service record rear pads were reported to be 9mm at <12,000 miles. So according to my estimate they have worn less than 2mm in about 14,000 miles.

I never had the car until 6,000 miles, so I'm guessing the BMW HQ driver was braking much more when the car was 'collecting' the initial data for estimating pad wear. But hasn't re-estimated the wear rate since that time. The front pads are still in good fettle with 46,000 miles on the CBS countdown.

I'm sure my garage will simply reset the CBS for the pads, (once they have checked them) as I don't want warnings way before I know the pads are worn down to replacement thickness.

BTW, my last BMW (E91 330d) I had new, at 52,000 miles was still on original pads with the rear pads (6mm) still indicating much more life.

HighlandPete
Pete, yes, the shop will measure and if there is too much meat left, they actually have an algorithm that recomputes the estimated number of miles remaining. They will reset the warning and by re-entering the estimated number of miles remaining and you'll be on your way.

My speculative theory is that there exists logic that takes into account the number of brake actuations made by the driver and the number of actuations made by the ABS system.

This is outside of the sensor data.

Well, i think BMW has a safety counter that tries to act as another source in determining wear.

This safety counter threshold is out of whack and this causes iDrive to have the wrong number of remaining miles.

BMW engineers simply underestimated the real life number of short brake actuations by man and ABS.

And I believe this led to the discrepancy.
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      06-20-2015, 08:57 PM   #12
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I bought my F10 3 months ago and the CBS said brake pads were due in 3,600 miles. I have driven 3k miles since then and the CBS still says 3,600 miles until due...
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      06-21-2015, 04:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600 View Post
The brakes are fine, but I’ve noticed a small drop in performance recently; need to press the pedal down further to come to a complete stop and need to hold it there to not roll.
Mine was the same for quite some time before replacing the pads, the car felt nose heavy on braking. Just finished bedding in my new pads, feels great now. Less brake input required and the car feels balanced again.
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      06-22-2015, 08:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7 View Post
Yet, when it comes to an oil change, the dealers claim the CBS system is flawless and they won't change the oil early---even if you happen to have the car opened up at the dealers for some other reason.
My cousin is currently fighting with his dealership over this. He accidentally reset the service indicator when it was saying it was due.. so they won't service it since the light isn't on. He even brought it in so they could test the oil. They said it will be fine for the 10,000 more miles it's now saying until it's due again. If he waits that long, it will be 25,000 miles between services. Insane.

I've had the opposite several times where they forgot to reset the indicator when I went in for service (oil, brake fluid, etc). I guess by their logic, I was entitled to another service just days later
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      06-22-2015, 10:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisny
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7 View Post
Yet, when it comes to an oil change, the dealers claim the CBS system is flawless and they won't change the oil early---even if you happen to have the car opened up at the dealers for some other reason.
My cousin is currently fighting with his dealership over this. He accidentally reset the service indicator when it was saying it was due.. so they won't service it since the light isn't on. He even brought it in so they could test the oil. They said it will be fine for the 10,000 more miles it's now saying until it's due again. If he waits that long, it will be 25,000 miles between services. Insane.

I've had the opposite several times where they forgot to reset the indicator when I went in for service (oil, brake fluid, etc). I guess by their logic, I was entitled to another service just days later
That's maddening to hear. The CBS indicator tripping generates an event in the event log, so they can easily see he is telling the truth.


My advice: 1. Have him pay for an oil change out of pocket. Then, submit to BMW corporate for reimbursement.

If BMW can't find any record of service on the car, they will have no choice but to reimburse you.

Also, by paying for it out of pocket and submitting the bill with your VIN to BMW corporate, you're taking the dealer out of the equation.

The car's mileage can't be rolled back. Every service event is stored by VIN. If you can show no service paid for under his VIN, then BMW will clearly see he is entitled for service.

My little trick will get the dealer out of the equation. Good luck and don't back down.
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      06-22-2015, 11:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisny
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7 View Post
Yet, when it comes to an oil change, the dealers claim the CBS system is flawless and they won't change the oil early---even if you happen to have the car opened up at the dealers for some other reason.
My cousin is currently fighting with his dealership over this. He accidentally reset the service indicator when it was saying it was due.. so they won't service it since the light isn't on. He even brought it in so they could test the oil. They said it will be fine for the 10,000 more miles it's now saying until it's due again. If he waits that long, it will be 25,000 miles between services. Insane.

I've had the opposite several times where they forgot to reset the indicator when I went in for service (oil, brake fluid, etc). I guess by their logic, I was entitled to another service just days later
That's maddening to hear. The CBS indicator tripping generates an event in the event log, so they can easily see he is telling the truth.


My advice: 1. Have him pay for an oil change out of pocket. Then, submit to BMW corporate for reimbursement.

If BMW can't find any record of service on the car, they will have no choice but to reimburse you.

Also, by paying for it out of pocket and submitting the bill with your VIN to BMW corporate, you're taking the dealer out of the equation.

The car's mileage can't be rolled back. Every service event is stored by VIN. If you can show no service paid for under his VIN, then BMW will clearly see he is entitled for service.

My little trick will get the dealer out of the equation. Good luck and don't back down.
My thoughts exactly. I told him to call BMWNA. Not sure if he's pursued it yet.
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      06-23-2015, 05:41 PM   #17
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My issue with a premature expected mileage reading was resolved with a pad thickness check and reset during the service today.

My rear pads are now reading 36,000 miles to replacement.

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      06-26-2015, 11:04 AM   #18
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Forget the computers OP. They will always vary and give an "estimated" repair/replace time. Go by the drive and response of the car. Sounds like your brakes are going to be due soon. Make sure you replace the pads before they start cutting into the discs. Visual inspection always helps!
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      06-26-2015, 02:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OEMonsterz View Post
Forget the computers OP. They will always vary and give an "estimated" repair/replace time. Go by the drive and response of the car. Sounds like your brakes are going to be due soon. Make sure you replace the pads before they start cutting into the discs. Visual inspection always helps!
Good point! :|
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