[Noggie]

Since electric cars has no tax I norway they are getting very popular.
A tesla S costs the same in Norway as in any other country.
However all other cars are heavily taxed.

For the price of the top tesla you can get a 525d, with a few options. Or the top of the line Ford Mondeo.
For the same price you can get 2 i3's.
Or for one i3 you can have a Hyundai i30.

What tesla and the Norwegian government has made possible, is for what the normal person would spend on a dull, regular, low powered family car, he can now get a car with BMW M, MB AMG and Audi RS performance.

Supercharges are popping up all over the place, so charging is not a problem either. Though charging a tesla with a depleted battery to full charge will take up to 72 hours on a regular home outlet.
My point is that most people dont need a car that does 0-60 in 4 seconds, they need a car to go shopping, bring the kids to the kindergarten and school.
And that is why I believe that cars like the i3 are much better electric cars than the tesla.
The i3 may not be a pretty car, but it gets the job done at less than half the price of a tesla, and it's just the beginning.

Oil companies subsidized, think someone got things wrong here.

[twelve535i]

I like the idea of preserving the good earth we were given, and Tesla is going to influence other car companies to start mass producing fully electric cars, which is great.

I think Elon Musk is a genius. He makes a premium car that makes the buyer feel good about themselves. Drive a luxury car while saving the planet...........Why buy a S Class when you can have a Model S?
Others who can't afford a model S will wait for the model X and join the elite Tesla crowd.


Range is a concern for me. Sure, Super Charging stations are popping up every where, but what if I'm taking a road trip and I can't find one on my route? Do I need to go out of my way to charge my car? One day charging will be just as convenient as pumping gas, but not today. Maybe not even in the next few years.

I also like the sound of my car. The engine noise, the exhaust note. Maybe I'm alone on this, but those things are part of the fun of driving. There are probably tons of people who like noiseless cars, but I'm not one of them.

As of right now, Tesla is not for me. Even if it was in my budget.

[The X Men]

deleted

[Noggie]

Originally Posted by twelve535i

I think Elon Musk is a genius. He makes a premium car that makes the buyer feel good about themselves. Drive a luxury car while saving the planet...........Why buy a S Class when you can have a Model S?
Others who can't afford a model S will wait for the model X and join the elite Tesla crowd.

Please explain the use of the words "premium" and "luxury".
I found absolutely nothing about the model S that even vaguely justifies the use of those words.

The car is priced similar to premium cars, but that's it.

I would drive around in an S class any day over a model S, simply because of words like "premium" and "luxury" which that car has loads of, and quite frankly the model S has none of.

[The X Men]

There are only 124 Tesla super charging station in the US, chances are there will be a lot of area out of reach in the US for the Tesla. Even the area that has super charging stations, chances are, you will need to deviate from the most direct route to your destination to get there. It also take anywhere from 1 hour to 52 hours to fully charge a Tesla 85KW battery. Swapping battery is an option but it actually take longer to swap the battery than to super charge the battery. Swapping the battery is a multi-hour job, and involves some draining and refilling of the battery coolant sysyem which s connected to the radiator system of the car. Until Tesla modify the car, its not a very good option. If I have a brand new battery, I don't think I would want to swap it for someone else's old one. Also, if you live in the extreme hot or cold climate, the batteries will not be as efficient, driving in the snow can also decrease the range of the electric car. Seems to me the EV's drivetrain and battery technology is ready for prime time, but the charging system technology is holding it back. The charge time need to be decrease and the average household simply do not have the ampere rating to charge the battery quickly. Until that limitation is overcome, the EV will remain a short range or second car for most households. Below is a map of all the Tesla super charging station in the US.

[twelve535i]

Originally Posted by Noggie

Please explain the use of the words "premium" and "luxury".
I found absolutely nothing about the model S that even vaguely justifies the use of those words.

The car is priced similar to premium cars, but that's it.

I would drive around in an S class any day over a model S, simply because of words like "premium" and "luxury" which that car has loads of, and quite frankly the model S has none of.

Actually, I'm not a fan of the model S. I was referring to the people who would of purchased a S class and their reason for justifying buying a Model S instead.

I was mainly just complimenting Elon Musk's marketing strategy.

[Noggie]

Originally Posted by twelve535i

Actually, I'm not a fan of the model S. I was referring to the people who would of purchased a S class and their reason for justifying buying a Model S instead.

I was mainly just complimenting Elon Musk's marketing strategy.

Ok, there is no question that Elon Musk has a great strategy, totally agree with you there.
I also feel that Tesla owners, in Norway especially, are very similar to Apple fanboys. They claim to have the best product, despite numerous problems, they have paid top money for it, and just love growing those acceleration figures in your face.

[slingxshot]

May be people in Norway are actually forward thinking...

[slingxshot]

Originally Posted by The X Men

There are only 124 Tesla super charging station in the US, chances are there will be a lot of area out of reach in the US for the Tesla. Even the area that has super charging stations, chances are, you will need to deviate from the most direct route to your destination to get there. It also take anywhere from 1 hour to 52 hours to fully charge a Tesla 85KW battery. Swapping battery is an option but it actually take longer to swap the battery than to super charge the battery. Swapping the battery is a multi-hour job, and involves some draining and refilling of the battery coolant sysyem which s connected to the radiator system of the car. Until Tesla modify the car, its not a very good option. If I have a brand new battery, I don't think I would want to swap it for someone else's old one. Also, if you live in the extreme hot or cold climate, the batteries will not be as efficient, driving in the snow can also decrease the range of the electric car. Seems to me the EV's drivetrain and battery technology is ready for prime time, but the charging system technology is holding it back. The charge time need to be decrease and the average household simply do not have the ampere rating to charge the battery quickly. Until that limitation is overcome, the EV will remain a short range or second car for most households. Below is a map of all the Tesla super charging station in the US.

Dude what are you on?

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by slingxshot

Dude what are you on?

Do you always believe every marketing video you see? That video would have more credibility if the battery swap was done by a independent company. Check out this site:

"Exactly a year ago, Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk presided over a flashy demonstration in which the battery pack of a Tesla Model S electric car was apparently swapped from underneath within 90 seconds and replaced with a fresh pack.
We heard very little about Tesla battery-swapping after that. And the demonstration left many questions unanswered, including how the battery pack's coolant pipes could be disconnected and reconnected in that short a time--presumably without spilling any of the battery's liquid coolant."

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...ctually-arrive

I am sure 90 seconds battery swapping will be possible one day, but even then, I don't think I would want to swapping out my bring new $10,000 battery for a used one. On top of that, take a look at that US map of all the super changing station, 90% of the country is not covered.

[Noggie]

Originally Posted by slingxshot

May be people in Norway are actually forward thinking...

Maybe a little, but i guess in most ways it's the economics.
We have toll roads all over, and you don't pay in those with an electric car.
You can drive in the bus lane, meaning you can drive past the queue ( this is becoming a huge issue for the busses now)
Fuel is free most places, at work, at shopping centers and supercharges so unless you charge at home, fuel cost is zero.
You can get a 700hp car at the price of a 150hp car because there is no import taxes or VAT on electric cars.

So yes, Norway is on to something.
However, Norway is responsible for 0,17% of global emissions, so if everyone in Norway was gone tomorrow, the impact on global emissions is not even noticed.
The problem for other countries is that they don't have high import taxes on normal cars, so an electric car will not be the bargain it is in Norway, and people will go for the known proven fossil fuel powered cars.

A few year ago I heard that cars was responsible for 14% of global emissions, this is an old figure, so let's say its 20%.
If all cars on the planet was electric tomorrow, the reduction would be 20%. Good, but there is still a very long way to go.
Electric cars has a good impact on local pollution as they have no exhaust.
Since most of Norways electric power is from hydro plants its clean energy. In many other countries they have coal power plants, so you just move the emissions from your car to the power plant having to use more coal to generate your cars electricity need.
You need clean power on all levels for this to be an environmental success.

[ezmaass]

Originally Posted by slingxshot

The difference with hydrogen or some other fuel methods is that we don't have the infrastructure. Electricity is available everywhere, and what is great it is already at your house and you can get your self a dedicated charger that will charge the car in 4 hours. Tesla several months ago just put a new super charger station few miles from I live and a service station.

You guys have to embrace new tech and stop "being safe". What is crazy is that a lot of people pre-ordered those Tesla S cars 12+ months before it was available. They got their deliveries in 2012. The car as been on the road now for 2 years and it has been proven million times that it works but now almost 50,000 owners or so. I am not planning to get the Tesla S because it is out of my price range, I am waiting for Model 3.

I don't understand you people for your ridiculous over cautious paranoia.

HAHA! So, let me get this straight - your argument is that 50,000 owners driving cars for a little more than 2 years is sufficient to declare that any cautiousness is "ridiculous" and "paranoia"??? So, you must have also thought Betamax was a great success considering it sold many more units over a longer period of time??

Embrace new tech? What is it you do for a living, may I ask? I happen to be IN technology - software engineering specifically. So, I'm plenty able, willing, and familiar with the idea of embracing (and designing/promoting!) new technology. I can name you a laundry list of "new technologies" that flopped after seemingly successful launches.

You need to stop confusing "new technology" with "good technology." The two aren't necessarily equivalent. And just because a technology hits the market, and even has some early success, it doesn't by ANY stretch of the imagination mean it will prevail or endure. Do you recall Apple launching Apple "clones" back in the mid-90's? Or how about Blackberry? For all the great benefits of a proprietary platform including an early jump on the smartphone market (by a landslide), Android (and open source) now dominates. How about Bitcoin and its multiple copycats? A new electronic cryptographic currency was going to take the world by storm - prices surged from pennies per Bitcoin to well over $1,000 USD... only to be on a massive landslide now that the market has woken up to many of its pitfalls (including collapse of several Bitcoin banks). The $5k Segway was going to revolutionize transportation, as well - instead it's become a novelty for mall security guards. What about Cisco Umi, and the countless number of video conferencing solutions aimed at household use? They were going to revolutionize the "archaic" voice-only telephone! Well, despite readiness of the technology and the "beneift" of video-chatting with Mom, it turns out... most people don't like being seen on the phone! And speaking of phones... the Garmin Nuvifone? Hey, if a phone can be a GPS, why can't a GPS be a phone, right?? Well, it can't as Garmin found out.

The fact is - you don't need to look far to see "great ideas" and "new tech" that didn't quite make it. It's way too early to claim any amount of success for Tesla or the electric car. It's not a novel idea - people have been attempting to make it work for well over 100 years now... the 1880's to be exact. Granted, we've come a very long way, but with 130+ years of challenges, you'll need to excuse a bit of skepticism that "this is finally it!"

Considering there are about 121,000 gas stations providing coverage for travel in the US, what does it mean to have 100 - 200 Tesla charging stations? Especially for cars with LESS range? That's minuscule infrastructure. And again, I'll point out - the market enjoys popularity and success of technology that embraces interoperability and standards - not proprietary technology of a single vendor. Imagine if your Firefox web browser could only open Firefox web sites, or your HP computer could only run HP applications. Unless Tesla drives their technology into open standards, it stands little chance of success in my eyes as a technologist.

Look, electric may still be the future - but we're not there yet... not even close. There's technology in growth areas... then technology considered "emerging"... then technology considered "leading edge"... and then there's "bleeding edge." Electric cars are somewhere between bleeding and leading edge to me right now. They've been productionized, they're on the road, and they have a very, very small "user base" over a very short period of time. There are still many questions regarding how they'll overcome hurdles, and even fewer answers that experts in the field can agree upon. So, go ahead and buy one - I'm not against someone buying a Tesla. But don't fool yourself into thinking it's a shoe-in for what tomorrow's future will be. Less you need to remind yourself of the countless technologies that made it MUCH further than where electric cars are today and still managed to flop for reasons that would have been seen as irrational by their supporters of the time.

Infrastructure, range, and replenishment (either through charging or other means) still need to come a massively long way before I think electrics will have graduated from novelty to practical mainstream options for people. Primary measures of success will also include being affordable to the masses and inspiring confidence to be a first and only vehicle in the garage. And it's not as if electric vehicles have no competition. As I said earlier, 121,000 gas stations and well established production and delivery means... not to mention the decades of investment into combustion engines... a technology that successfully leverages what's out there ("don't throw the baby out with the bath water") would be immediately FAR ahead of electrics in a race to become the next alternative energy source.

[493263]

You don't need to worry about EVs until at least 2025. Even if we account Tesla's gigafactory and continuous production increase in the battery industry, by 2020 the world would still not produce enough batteries to swap 10% of vehicle production to EVs.

I really don't see EVs being the norm until 2040 and beyond. That's a long way away.

EVs only hope is actually Magnesium Ion, whenever they are ready to implement that throughout the entire industry. Lithium Ion can never achieve enough energy density since it will only hold 1 electron while magnesium holds 2. Aluminum is after magnesium because it holds 3.

But economically speaking, it wouldn't be the EV that kill the ICE motor vehicles. It would be the maturity of mass transit systems.

[noixd]

In order for it to be a compelling product it has to be nine times better. Old habits die hard and new innovations need to offer dramatic improvements to shake consumers out of old routines. The EV is only marginally better than gasoline powered but not enough to woo customers away. Tesla is a long away to crossing the chasm. It takes at least 20 years to become a billion dollar industry. I think it will take Tesla much longer. Who cares if its the best innovative product or has a infrastructure set in place. Its about the first to the mind that wins. The ones that can change consumer behavior. EVs are going to force us to relearn to operate a car and products that require a high degree of behavior change are boomed to fail even if the benefits of using the new product are clear and substantial.

[BigK]

Originally Posted by slingxshot

BMW are great cars but the thought of never going to a gas station ever again, instant torque, etc

I read that BMW is not planning for a fully electric till 2019?

So I will seriously consider Tesla 3 around 2017 time frame when my lease is ending. Hopefully it will be available by then. The only way I won't buy if it is hideous, but I highly doubt it will be.

Anyone had similar thoughts?

I’m with you, I think my next car will very likely be a Tesla. I’ve test driven one and the instant surge of speed it gives you is not comparable to any other car. There’s very little if any charging stations here in Shanghai but I’ve already seen people rolling around town in the Model S.

[493263]

Originally Posted by martin mustang

Good luck in 5 years when your battery need changing, just like the rechargeable batteries on your phone, your journey will shrink to accommodate the low capacity your battery will be able to handle! With hybrid you still have the option to go back to good old petrol!
Oh yes let me add this, I believe electric cars and the environment argument are simply the biggest scam on earth today!

This is a load of BS. Batteries capacity diminish by how many cycles. More importantly, how often you charge and at what level. If someone does the due diligence to plug it in at least every other night, then even a 60kW battery lasts you over 350,000 miles.

I would suspect that most people are going to plug it in every night so it wouldn't be a problem to reach over 200k miles before you get close to 80%.

Regardless, Tesla's warranty is 8 years/unlimited miles. A replacement is $12k. I hear the battery in the Model S is newer and better. It will endure more cycles before dropping to 80%.

http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-road...es-127733.html

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by BigK

I’m with you, I think my next car will very likely be a Tesla. I’ve test driven one and the instant surge of speed it gives you is not comparable to any other car. There’s very little if any charging stations here in Shanghai but I’ve already seen people rolling around town in the Model S.

Do they even have charging stations in China?

[493263]

Originally Posted by noixd

It takes at least 20 years to become a billion dollar industry. I think it will take Tesla much longer.

You are an example of fools on the internet. Tesla by itself is worth more than $20B, not counting Nissan, Ford, and other EV producers.

Tesla's sales revenue from the Model S alone is currently about $3B(assuming current sales rate). Next year, it will be at least 50% higher. Nissan sells the Leafs like hot cakes and have several factories dedicated to making Leaf parts and batteries.

Please eat this humble pie and do some research next time before you spew nonsense.

[martin mustang]

Originally Posted by 493263

This is a load of BS. Batteries capacity diminish by how many cycles. More importantly, how often you charge and at what level. If someone does the due diligence to plug it in at least every other night, then even a 60kW battery lasts you over 350,000 miles.

I would suspect that most people are going to plug it in every night so it wouldn't be a problem to reach over 200k miles before you get close to 80%.

Regardless, Tesla's warranty is 8 years/unlimited miles. A replacement is $12k. I hear the battery in the Model S is newer and better. It will endure more cycles before dropping to 80%.

http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-road...es-127733.html

what worry me about all this debate the very idea that Electricity is somehow dropping from the skies with no impact on the environment all clean, in other word the biggest BS of all, it is a fact that media and all are simply one sided in this debate about global warming, because it is simply good business, they look attractive to an audience blinded as always by the commercial element, even our taxes are feeding into this so called green none sense, take a step out of the main stream media and check the other side argued by capable and established scientist on this topic and you find the answer behind the fact that global warming is a natural cycle earth goes through it every so 100 or 1000 years. the Thames river in London froze for a very long time in the 17th century if not wrong due to climate change, will the electric so called clean folks argue it was CO2 produced by cows and horses behind it!
the point is the Battery tech is still at early days, expensive, the Telsa is not a premium car it is simply priced like one, and I like to see the source of the Electricity that will keep it going, in Europe it is certainly triggering more Nuke stations, as the only cost effective way of keeping the ever increasing demand for electricity, I rather have petrol waist than nuclear one impacting on our very existence, Origianly form NA, now a European resident, Electric cars are screwing like no other the chances of a safe life for my grand kids, it is the biggest scam on earth as far as I am concerned, and with dire consequences to our own down the line.
so just to sum up my answer, the battery life is not what I worry about! I am sure you right and they will perform even better down the line, but it is the fact that thanks to my electric car a new nuke station is up and running.

[Soft]

Due to the increased rate of failing drive units in Norway (Tesla shipping 300 replacement units a week to Norway ), they have decided to reduce the power output from standstill to 10kmh. This is done in software.

In Norwegian:
http://www.vg.no/forbruker/bil-baat-...ge/a/23340013/

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by martin mustang

what worry me about all this debate the very idea that Electricity is somehow dropping from the skies with no impact on the environment all clean

This statement nails it for me.
I feel that more can be done to understand long term impact on environment additional electric grid demand and battery recycling will have.

Nobody wants nuclear plant in their backyard, or even wind turbines. Now just imagine if everybody immediately switched to electric car. All this extra power has to come from somewhere, and all these batteries have to somehow be recycled.

I'm not "for" or "against" Tesla as a company, and don't have "better" solution myself. But I'm also not planning on getting one anytime soon. I think it's admirable that they are trying and perhaps this is the future of transportation, it's too soon to tell.

Bottom line, for now, everybody can vote with their wallets and decide what they believe in.

[BigK]

Originally Posted by The X Men

Do they even have charging stations in China?

I haven't seen any so far but I believe there are, just not the superchargers like the ones Tesla offers in the U.S.