[Sp123]

Hi all

Wanted your advice. I would like to have the four wheel laser alignment done on my car.

I have used hunter hawk eye in the past on my old z4 at an independent and they did a good job this was 2008.

Since then I have learnt that my local dealership can offer the four wheel alignment using a kds machine. But for a higher charge.

Does anybody have experience of the kds machine and is it worth the extra charge and did they do anything different better or more than an Independent would do.

Ps I am currently running winter tyres, they are due to be swapped onto summer tyres in end of march. If I do the alignment this week will I need to do it again after the tyre swap as it may be tyre tread, pressure etc sensitive or is the alignment unaffected by this.

Thanks in advance

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Sp123

Hi all

Wanted your advice. I would like to have the four wheel laser alignment done on my car.

I have used hunter hawk eye in the past on my old z4 at an independent and they did a good job this was 2008.

Since then I have learnt that my local dealership can offer the four wheel alignment using a kds machine. But for a higher charge.

Does anybody have experience of the kds machine and is it worth the extra charge and did they do anything different better or more than an Independent would do.

Ps I am currently running winter tyres, they are due to be swapped onto summer tyres in end of march. If I do the alignment this week will I need to do it again after the tyre swap as it may be tyre tread, pressure etc sensitive or is the alignment unaffected by this.

Thanks in advance

Why do you need an alignment, something wrong?

From my perspective, if there is a particular issue, who's the best for solving it. May not necessarily be BMW with their KDS (Kinematic Diagnosis System). Other factor, alignment is not just dependent on the machine, but also the operator. So whether a Beissbarth or a Hunter rig, you still need a good operator.

If you do go ahead, you don't need another alignment when fitting summer wheels.

[Sp123]

Hi Highland Pete

Thank you for your kind and informative reply as always. I am considering the four wheel alignment as my BMW steering badge is bit dead centre to drive the car straight and when it is if I let go of the steering wheel the car will immediately veer to the left.

Previously in this car the steering wheel bmw badge was dead centre and ok letting go of the steering wheel the car would follow the track on a straight road.

I am also wanting it done as I have been doing lots of varied driving motorway and dual carriageway where may I have hit pot holes and feel this may have brought the alignment out.

Highland Pete, I read on many internet sites that it is normal for a car to veer to the left from the manufacturer camber setting for safety purposes to bring the car onto the hard shoulder and not to the right to avoid the third lane of the motorway. Is this true? Also in your car is your BMW steering wheel badge dead centre when driving the car straight and if you let go of the wheel does your car drive straight or veer slightly to the left or right?

Many thanks and much appreciated for your help and advice.

Ps just for my information how would the operator influence the alignment machine. So in this respect an I better off visiting an independent garage that specialises in wheel alignment rather than BMW dealership. Also is the kds a better machine than the hunter etc as it checks suspension setup as well as I have been told by the dealer

Many thanks

Sp

[HighlandPete]

I'd suggest you at least get someone who understands the F10 to do the alignment, as there is likely something worn or possibly moved.

I've never bought into the idea cars are designed to pull to the roadside, even if some do have a geometry which does to a degree compensate for a bit of road camber.

My F11 drives straight and precise, steering wheel is set to mid position. There is a slight camber drift (left or right) on severe cambers, no pull and on the crown of the road, is perfectly straight with no drift at all. F10/11 (like all cars with steering angle sensing, particularly EPS systems) does require the wheel to be in true mid position, to steer well. EPS is reading zero steering angle from within the steering rack.

The operator issue, it can be the setting up of the rig, possibly little experience and/or understanding of what is to be achieved. Some terrible geo's have been posted on the forums, some saying the alignment can't be set any closer to spec'. Clearly so far out that either the setup/calibration of the rig is out, or the operator has no real idea how to use it. Or a car is set to spec', readout looks reasonable, but drives like a dog, go to anther more experienced shop and they declare the geometry is way out.

I had an experience with a VW Passat which had a new rear axle, due to it being out of tolerance and scuffing off tyres. VW couldn't get the alignment right, steering was way off. Long story short, VW took control and had a VW area engineer at a main dealer with the approved Beissbarth rig. The guy signed it off, as in tolerance. Was awful, I could see it was out using string lines and a credit card, measuring between tyres and wheel arches.

The rear axle wasn't in 'square', whatever the readout was saying. I persuaded VW to allow my local VW dealer to tweak the axle. He got it right first time. Whatever VW were doing I've no idea, no one was using their eyeball or experience, simply stating what the computer said was correct.

Just ensure you have the steering wheel 'exactly' in mid position after any work/adjustments. With correct track rod end adjustment there shouldn't be an issue.

[Sp123]

I think on the basis of somebody being familiar to work on the f10; my dealership would probably be the best bet for me. With all due respect my local independent is fabulous but works on a wide range of cars - which is a good thing but may need more of specialist knowledge when it comes to the f10.

On that basis I believe the dealership may be a more suitable option. They know the car and its characteristics.

I would like to be in the same position as you whereby the steering wheel is exactly in the centre and the car drives straight and does not pull only cambers to the road but in the crown of the road it is driving dead straight. Also the steering wheel badge to be exactly in the centre. Also I anticipate that the dealership can check the eps steering angle sensor if needs be.

My dads Vw recently had an alignment issue. The car purchased in January this year only had 8000 miles in from a Vw dealership. Yeh steering wheel badge was off centre and to drive the car straight you had to drive with the wheel off centre. I took it to the independent garage with the hunter and they said the rear axle may be bent and wouldn't expect this on a three year old car with 8000k miles on the clock. They said they could adjust the front toe and camber by moving the subframe but on vag group cars they are unable to adjust the rear as it's on a single bolt. So I rang the dealership up where I bought it from. They kindly picked up the car and took it to their dealership machine. They ran the alignment and adjusted the front subframe which has bought the rear toe and camber in the green zone again. The wheel is centre but the car does veer slightly to the right. Could this be a wheel balancing issue.

I'm worried that sometimes as you saw in your Passat that even the dealership cannot sometimes get the alignment right. I've had mine done on kds when I had a new steering rack out into my car I just remembered and the car was dead centre to drive and the steering wheel was exactly in the centre to drive straight also.

I'm hoping that the pot holes have just thrown the alignment out and that the alignment adjustments will correct and centralise all settings again.

Also have you had your f11 alignment done or is it driving still straight from the factory settings. I'm unable to avoid certsin pot holes by serving when at speed hence cannot maintain the factory setting.

Thanks again highland Pete

[shiner]

I drove over a pothole the other week in the dark and it was a proper "thump" (the roads are seriously deteriorating just lately). Not sure if that was the cause but since then I feel sure the car has a vibration at about 70-80mph. Accelerate through that to 90mph and it goes away.
Not sure if it is just psychological or whether that pot hole has thrown the wheel alignment out.....?

[Potatohead]

My car also veers very slightly to the left on the motorway. I had my alignments checked over by Protyre laser alignment in Weston super mare (I've used the Bristol branch in the past who have been great so thought I'd take it into the Weston branch as I was just passing by). They guy checked but he came back saying everything was near correct and didn't need adjusting. He also mentioned that cars will tend to veer to the left for safety but I'm not so sure. My previous cars a6 and e class were dart straight on the motorway which made motorway driving effortless. I've got my MOT booked at BMW Dick Lovett later in the month so will get them to check for a second opinion.


Shiner - I have BMW 20's with non runflats and just had to have one of my rear wheel flatspots straightened out. Sounds like you may have the a same problem or just a wheel balance issue? I've been to two wheel refurb places recently and both mentioned BMW wheel repairs are very common. More so than other manufacturers and probably due to larger wheels and stiff walled runflats.

[Sp123]

Originally Posted by shiner

I drove over a pothole the other week in the dark and it was a proper "thump" (the roads are seriously deteriorating just lately). Not sure if that was the cause but since then I feel sure the car has a vibration at about 70-80mph. Accelerate through that to 90mph and it goes away.
Not sure if it is just psychological or whether that pot hole has thrown the wheel alignment out.....?

Hi shiner

I feel the pot holes have caused my issues as well.

If the steering wheel vibrates it could be a wheel balancing job possibly as said by potato head but I'm confused as to why it disappears at 90mph

Let me know how you get on.

Thanks

Sp

[Sp123]

Originally Posted by Potatohead

My car also veers very slightly to the left on the motorway. I had my alignments checked over by Protyre laser alignment in Weston super mare (I've used the Bristol branch in the past who have been great so thought I'd take it into the Weston branch as I was just passing by). They guy checked but he came back saying everything was near correct and didn't need adjusting. He also mentioned that cars will tend to veer to the left for safety but I'm not so sure. My previous cars a6 and e class were dart straight on the motorway which made motorway driving effortless. I've got my MOT booked at BMW Dick Lovett later in the month so will get them to check for a second opinion.


Shiner - I have BMW 20's with non runflats and just had to have one of my rear wheel flatspots straightened out. Sounds like you may have the a same problem or just a wheel balance issue? I've been to two wheel refurb places recently and both mentioned BMW wheel repairs are very common. More so than other manufacturers and probably due to larger wheels and stiff walled runflats.

Hi I feel that Dick Lovett Bristol will be good at finding out the issue. I have used them in the past and they are excellent.

Let me know what they find

Thanks

Sp

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Sp123

Also have you had your f11 alignment done or is it driving still straight from the factory settings. I'm unable to avoid certsin pot holes by serving when at speed hence cannot maintain the factory setting.

Mine was pretty good from when I took on the car at 6,000 miles. I noticed over time the wheel wasn't quite central, just the smallest amount out, no particular reason I was aware of as to why. Car steering wasn't quite so precise, but still drove straight and didn't pull. I thought it may have been tyre wear. Anyway, decided to correct it myself. Put a couple of string lines along the car, took a few dimensions, proved the wheel was out a bit.

Was a simple case of "one track rod in, one out", to keep the toe setting exactly the same. A quarter turn, equivalent to a 15 thou' adjustment. Result was right first time, steering precision returned. Hasn't changed since, must be a couple of years ago I made the adjustment. Steering is fine with both my summer (including new tyres) and winter wheel sets.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by shiner

I drove over a pothole the other week in the dark and it was a proper "thump" (the roads are seriously deteriorating just lately). Not sure if that was the cause but since then I feel sure the car has a vibration at about 70-80mph. Accelerate through that to 90mph and it goes away.
Not sure if it is just psychological or whether that pot hole has thrown the wheel alignment out.....?

Does the car still feel right, steering and handling?

Vibration is likely wheel imbalance rim and/or tyre could be damaged. May be a small amount of run-out, and as wheel imbalance can change with speed (resonant frequency), not uncommon for vibration to come and go through the critical speed ranges.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Sp123

If the steering wheel vibrates it could be a wheel balancing job possibly as said by potato head but I'm confused as to why it disappears at 90mph

Wheel imbalance has different rotation speeds where there's a resonant frequency. Can be more than one speed range where it is dominant. 70 - 80 does seem to be one of those ranges in the F10/11.

[The Beast]

Could be a bent (and maybe cracked) wheel. Mine did the same thing between 70-80 mph although steering was fine. When I had an mot they discovered that one of my rear wheels was bent and had a crack in it. Got it welded as a temporary fix, although this doesn't cure the vibration, until I could get a replacement. I'm running 20" wheels with run flats

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by The Beast

Could be a bent (and maybe cracked) wheel. Mine did the same thing between 70-80 mph although steering was fine. When I had an mot they discovered that one of my rear wheels was bent and had a crack in it. Got it welded as a temporary fix, although this doesn't cure the vibration, until I could get a replacement. I'm running 20" wheels with run flats

I think 19" wheels are the biggest size to avoid these bent wheels, I had an opportunity to have 20" wheels and declined them, sounds like I did myself a favor.

[The Beast]

Originally Posted by JOHNBMWM5

I think 19" wheels are the biggest size to avoid these bent wheels, I had an opportunity to have 20" wheels and declined them, sounds like I did myself a favor.

Yeah but 20's look so good

[shiner]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Does the car still feel right, steering and handling?

Vibration is likely wheel imbalance rim and/or tyre could be damaged. May be a small amount of run-out, and as wheel imbalance can change with speed (resonant frequency), not uncommon for vibration to come and go through the critical speed ranges.

Yes, car drives straight and otherwise fine. I just feel that since that pothole incident there is a slight vibration at 70-80. I am going to get the two front wheels checked and balanced.

[Sp123]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Mine was pretty good from when I took on the car at 6,000 miles. I noticed over time the wheel wasn't quite central, just the smallest amount out, no particular reason I was aware of as to why. Car steering wasn't quite so precise, but still drove straight and didn't pull. I thought it may have been tyre wear. Anyway, decided to correct it myself. Put a couple of string lines along the car, took a few dimensions, proved the wheel was out a bit.

Was a simple case of "one track rod in, one out", to keep the toe setting exactly the same. A quarter turn, equivalent to a 15 thou' adjustment. Result was right first time, steering precision returned. Hasn't changed since, must be a couple of years ago I made the adjustment. Steering is fine with both my summer (including new tyres) and winter wheel sets.

Hi highland Pete
Thanks for your reply
How did you come to find that one track rod was in and one was out of you don't mind me asking. Did you use the alignment machine. Also how does that come about? Is it from pothole kurbs etc

Is the toe in and out affecting to direction of the wheel whereas the track rod determines how much the wheel can turn out?

I am awaiting my alignment and want to be prepped for any diagnosis they give me.

Thanks highland pete.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Sp123

How did you come to find that one track rod was in and one was out of you don't mind me asking. Did you use the alignment machine. Also how does that come about? Is it from pothole kurbs etc

Is the toe in and out affecting to direction of the wheel whereas the track rod determines how much the wheel can turn out?

There was nothing wrong with how the car drove, except the steering wheel became slightly off. To be honest, I've no idea how it slowly went adrift. I'm not aware of any event which changed the position, wasn't a "one day fine, another day off" situation. Hence why at first I thought it was tyre wear.

I did run some dimensions and string lines along the car, which confirmed the steering wheel was definitely out of perfect alignment, with the front wheels directly straight. So my adjustment was simply a mechanical tweak, not a change to any alignment, or toe setting. The quarter turn on the track rod ends "one in, one out" corrected the steering wheel position, without changing any alignment geometry. (Didn't change the front toe setting). Steering wheel has been perfectly straight since that adjustment, not changed at all in about two years.

Track rod adjustment "both in, or out" set the toe angle ('toe in' on the F10) and the steering wheel position, "one in, one out" in relationship to the front wheel direction.

[Sp123]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

There was nothing wrong with how the car drove, except the steering wheel became slightly off. To be honest, I've no idea how it slowly went adrift. I'm not aware of any event which changed the position, wasn't a "one day fine, another day off" situation. Hence why at first I thought it was tyre wear.

I did run some dimensions and string lines along the car, which confirmed the steering wheel was definitely out of perfect alignment, with the front wheels directly straight. So my adjustment was simply a mechanical tweak, not a change to any alignment, or toe setting. The quarter turn on the track rod ends "one in, one out" corrected the steering wheel position, without changing any alignment geometry. (Didn't change the front toe setting). Steering wheel has been perfectly straight since that adjustment, not changed at all in about two years.

Track rod adjustment "both in, or out" set the toe angle ('toe in' on the F10) and the steering wheel position, "one in, one out" in relationship to the front wheel direction.

Hi highland Pete

Thanks for your reply

Did you carry out the adjustment yourself? Or do I need to put it onto a ramp etc

Thanks

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Sp123

Hi highland Pete

Thanks for your reply

Did you carry out the adjustment yourself? Or do I need to put it onto a ramp etc

Thanks

Did it myself on the ground, simply swinging on to one lock and then the other.

I've just remembered joining in another topic, when we discussed this subject, of correcting a steering wheel position.

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1177440

[Sp123]

Hi chaps

I had my four wheel laser alignment done on the kds. The cars come back with the BMW steering badge dead straight. The car drives straight except for when it follows the camber of the road. I'm very happy. The only thing they couldn't adjust was the caster which require new parts and for me for the time being I've left it as I'm saving up and doing it later in the year or next year after existing Tyres are no longer legal amount of tread. I'm very happy for the time being and nice to have the geometry in line. Steering weight feels great again too!
Thanks all!