[StealthBomber]

I am a 1st time BMW owner. 530d Touring.

Very nice car in nearly all regards.

But how on earth do BMW get away with their shocking navigation package? And what if anything can I do about it.

£2000 for the pro-navigation. That includes a few useful add ons including voice control which actually works fairly well. That's a £330 option, so let say the nav really cost me £1630.

The screen is big and useful - definately a cut above a Tom-Tom simply because of its size, but there the benefits stop.

The navigation "intelligence" is apalling as follows:-

Two sides of a triangle routing nearly everywhere I go.
Late announcements at regular junctions, highway exit announcements stated in miles, but calibrated in km (so "Exit 1 mile" means "exit 1km")
Sticks to long wiggly A roads where parallel straight B and C roads exist.
Traffic information impossible to safely interogate on the move, so useless.
Non-intuitive control
No journey time knowledge for specific roads (like Tom-Tom IQ routes)
Missing post code locations.
No GPS coordinate data entry
Very slow and clumsy manual location entry by map.
I could go on and on, there is so much that is wrong with it.

Apart from screen size, my £120 Tom-Tom was better in virtually every regard and on the last journey, we took that as well because the in car system could not even locate the end point and was advising taking us 10 miles north of where we wanted to go and working back south - bonkers.

BMW really need to scrap the system and licence from Tom-Tom and update as a free firmware upgrade with a Tom-Tom engine running the navigation.

If I had bough this as a seprate £100 unit I would have returned it, it is that useless IMO.

I guess hell will freeze over before BMW do anything like I suggest but it's really a royal rip off - I spent about £14,000 before discount on options to make this a "car to end all cars" and this is a real fly in the ointment. I have no regrets on any other options, even though many are really over-priced because at least they work, are well engineered and add luxury or true benefit to the car.

Anyone else feel the same?

[wang133ro]

- "prepare to turn left" and you still have 600m until that (in town); if you're not paying real attention you risk turning left on a different street; on my previous car 200m were quite enough early warning

- silly circle around your position arrow sometimes covering map details; seriously, how many of you actually need that circle to know where you are facing on the map?!

- VERY slow map refresh, especially obvious in roundabouts; my PHONE is faster than that, kind of embarrassing for the price and expectations

- agree with the non-intuitive interface (the whole idrive, not just the nav). However cannot blame only BMW since there seems to be a competition out there (not talking only about cars) for building the most non-intuitive interface ever, while at the same time boasting about their attention for intuitiveness.

[ipso_facto]

I don't have either of the nav systems, so I can't comment on quality. However, I would say: if you feel this strongly about the quality issues you have detailed, you should be inclined to write a formal letter of complaint to your dealer and ask how they propose to rectify the system - the point about "Exit 1 mile" means "exit 1km" - is particularly poor, if this is indeed correct.

If they cannot rectify, then how can they compensate you. I feel somewhat reticent about using the term "compensate", given the current (and growing) culture in the UK for these ridiculous personal injury compensation claims and the debacle that is the PPI compensation. However, in your case, I think to ask for compensation is justified, as you have paid a significant sum of money for a navigation system, that is simply not up to the standards of, much less costly, after-market systems. It is a specific option purchase, with a specific goal - that you can demonstrate does not meet the necessary criteria for operation.

You have obviously felt the need to test the opinion of others on this forum, so I don't think it is a great step further, to write (initially) to your dealer, to seek their response.


Cheers

[BigP535I]

very clunky on mine....1st takes a minute to input the address and 2nd I had weird glitch already on it where it told me to exit a st. in a city that was 30mins away from my destination. So with that said I use my phone as my navi and since here its automatically included in the tech package not much else I can do bout it and supposedly it helps resell value.

[The X Men]

No problem what so ever with my Navi, the controls are intuitive and the map refresh rate is good.
Any protable navi device will be better than most automotive based navi system, simply because that is their business. I bet Tom Tom cannot make a car that is as nice as BMW

[Russkey]

The only problem I have with the navigation is that the screen can easily get scratched!

[joey5622]

still hate the fact that my nav misses houses.... and that i can't "easily" scroll around the map to look at stuf..

[BigKutta]

I have to admit I was expecting more. My 2012 F10 NAV is about a user friendly as the NAV in my 2006 Mercedes. 6 years is a lifetime in electronics, but not when it comes to german cars.

My NAV complaints:
Maps are very poor. I am asked to make right turns where they dont exist. This is on roads that have been around for decades. Someone in the DC are can validate this by driving on Canal Rd, headed out of Georgetown
Home positions are way off
Traffic function is useless. Shows me traffic on the map, but wont suggest better routes (Am I missing something??)
Points of Interest function is a joke. I was looking for a very old and popular restaurant and the damn thing found it in Florida. I am in DC.
Guidance uses some crazy algorithm and takes me the long way usually
There are many more that I dont care to remember

Unfortunately, in the F10, the NAV is a necessary evil so we will just have to live with it. But I always wonder why BMW cannot work with Tom Tom or someone really good to work this out?!?!

[04S]

Originally Posted by StealthBomber

I am a 1st time BMW owner. 530d Touring.

Very nice car in nearly all regards.

But how on earth do BMW get away with their shocking navigation package? And what if anything can I do about it.

£2000 for the pro-navigation. That includes a few useful add ons including voice control which actually works fairly well. That's a £330 option, so let say the nav really cost me £1630.

The screen is big and useful - definately a cut above a Tom-Tom simply because of its size, but there the benefits stop.

The navigation "intelligence" is apalling as follows:-

Two sides of a triangle routing nearly everywhere I go.
Late announcements at regular junctions, highway exit announcements stated in miles, but calibrated in km (so "Exit 1 mile" means "exit 1km")
Sticks to long wiggly A roads where parallel straight B and C roads exist.
Traffic information impossible to safely interogate on the move, so useless.
Non-intuitive control
No journey time knowledge for specific roads (like Tom-Tom IQ routes)
Missing post code locations.
No GPS coordinate data entry
Very slow and clumsy manual location entry by map.
I could go on and on, there is so much that is wrong with it.

Apart from screen size, my £120 Tom-Tom was better in virtually every regard and on the last journey, we took that as well because the in car system could not even locate the end point and was advising taking us 10 miles north of where we wanted to go and working back south - bonkers.

BMW really need to scrap the system and licence from Tom-Tom and update as a free firmware upgrade with a Tom-Tom engine running the navigation.

If I had bough this as a seprate £100 unit I would have returned it, it is that useless IMO.

I guess hell will freeze over before BMW do anything like I suggest but it's really a royal rip off - I spent about £14,000 before discount on options to make this a "car to end all cars" and this is a real fly in the ointment. I have no regrets on any other options, even though many are really over-priced because at least they work, are well engineered and add luxury or true benefit to the car.

Anyone else feel the same?

No. Not at all.

[vdubturbo]

Originally Posted by The X Men

No problem what so ever with my Navi, the controls are intuitive and the map refresh rate is good.
Any protable navi device will be better than most automotive based navi system, simply because that is their business. I bet Tom Tom cannot make a car that is as nice as BMW

Mine has been great so far. I did notice you can improve your routing by switching from "Eco" routing to "Fastest". Made a big difference in mine.

[psyxologos]

No problems with my sat nav at all. I actually really like it...

[eskdale]

I guess its what you have been used to or used before.
I do very much agree with Stealthbomber's comments. My 2.5 yr old TomTom does a far better job at the navigation and the TomTom live Traffic is better than BMW's RTTI especially in the presentation to the user.
The BMW does have a nice screen and is built in and you can send it the destinations from your phone or PC desktop (Without this its a problem because so many Postcodes are missing)
One thing that Stealthbomber missed of his complaints that I miss, is there is no way to tell it to avoid a part of the route. If you know for example there is a big event at some location may be a Grand Prix at Silverstone I could tell the TomTom to avoide the road past Silverstone and it would plan the best route avoiding it. No way you can do this with the BMW. TomTom is not perfect but it does make the BMW system look poor.

[ipso_facto]

Originally Posted by eskdale

If you know for example there is a big event at some location may be a Grand Prix at Silverstone I could tell the TomTom to avoide the road past Silverstone and it would plan the best route avoiding it.

M69

[LiveLarger]

As far as I know Tom Tom wont work with my HUD. I like my sat nav, no troubles with it at all. And it's awesome with the HUD. Having a tomtom sit on the dash is OK in a 10 year old Skoda, but not in a 2012 BMW.

[StealthBomber]

Originally Posted by ipso_facto

I don't have either of the nav systems, so I can't comment on quality. However, I would say: if you feel this strongly about the quality issues you have detailed, you should be inclined to write a formal letter of complaint to your dealer and ask how they propose to rectify the system - the point about "Exit 1 mile" means "exit 1km" - is particularly poor, if this is indeed correct.

If they cannot rectify, then how can they compensate you. I feel somewhat reticent about using the term "compensate", given the current (and growing) culture in the UK for these ridiculous personal injury compensation claims and the debacle that is the PPI compensation. However, in your case, I think to ask for compensation is justified, as you have paid a significant sum of money for a navigation system, that is simply not up to the standards of, much less costly, after-market systems. It is a specific option purchase, with a specific goal - that you can demonstrate does not meet the necessary criteria for operation.

You have obviously felt the need to test the opinion of others on this forum, so I don't think it is a great step further, to write (initially) to your dealer, to seek their response.


Cheers

I agree with you in principal, but I have to say I have no confidence I would get anywhere with BMW - they just don't seem to do customer service like that. Plus, they would (legally) argue that they never claimed to route better than Tom-Tom IQ routes for example - lot of superlative general statements and a reasonable expectation by me that for 10x a Tom-Tom price it would be near perfect, but they never actually claimed that.

It's not that I am not up for it - some years ago we got a 75% discount OFF a brand new Vauxhall after I went to the MD because of a major design fault on a car that was 3 years old. That took some effort, but I don't think BMW have that kind of customer approach. They expect us all to be humbled by their great design - they cannot conceive something might not be perfect, so the fault must be mine, not the car would be their view.

I may well write to BMW anyway, but I don't think I will be after a refund, even though I beleive that actually its barely fit for purpose, and morally I would feel very justifed. The compensation culture in the country means that people with genuine issues get tarred with that brush, so they suffer while the scammers get their payout. Just the way it is these days.

I will add that the roundabout thing mentioned above is very true - it tells you to turn as you are in the exit you need. I have not studied the comparison with Tom-Tom accurately, but it never did this in this way. You should have selected the exit you need before entering the roundabout anyway, sat nav or not, but the way BMW implements it is disconcerting.

And a final word, if offered a refund or a Tom-Tom powered engine to complement all the other good feasures it does have, I'd take the upgrade. I want an excellent in car nav system to complement what is otherwise an excellent car. Probably obvious by what I was prepared to spend on it in the first place I guess, but I wanted to make that point.

[StealthBomber]

Originally Posted by The X Men

No problem what so ever with my Navi, the controls are intuitive and the map refresh rate is good.
Any protable navi device will be better than most automotive based navi system, simply because that is their business. I bet Tom Tom cannot make a car that is as nice as BMW

And Bosch can't make cars either, but BMW choose to integrate Bosch systems in their cars because Bosch are one of the best, and BMW don't make auto boxes, they integrate a ZF gearbox, because its one of the best. There will be lots more examples and a pattern here that they don't repeat with navigation - their chosen partner is not one of the best, by a long stretch.

Tom-Tom (and GPS navigation in general) is not perfect, but having tried all the top 4 nav makes, IMO Tom-Tom are the best there is by some margin. The best routing with IQ routes, the most instuitive and clear MMI, the most intuitive, fast response. So that is where BMW should be going for their nav integration, end of story.

By the way, the reason I have tried all 4 top makes is that I was determined that I was not having a Tom-Tom because they are so ubiquotous - I was going to be different and find the better alternative. But I was wrong, there isn't one and all the others got sent back.

For those who don't know, IQ routes works like this:-

If you allow TT do do this, they log every journey you make anonymously. They pool all the data and by doing so get a massive data-base of how long the average person takes on every road at every time of day, on every day of the week. So when it calculates a route, it uses information for the day of the week and time you are travelling. Subject to certain preference settings, it choses the route that ACTUALLY takes less time on average. Not some estimate based on an algorythm related to road class, based on actual data. It suggested to me some great routes I had never considered and also some that I know from local knowledge are brilliant, but a traditional system will not route - long straight C-roads - most nav systems never choose them. So Tom-Tom with IQ is the best, by a country mile. Until another make integrates actual journey time data, I think I can state that as fact rather than opinion.

[StealthBomber]

Originally Posted by LiveLarger

As far as I know Tom Tom wont work with my HUD. I like my sat nav, no troubles with it at all. And it's awesome with the HUD. Having a tomtom sit on the dash is OK in a 10 year old Skoda, but not in a 2012 BMW.

The point I am making is that BMW should use the Tom-Tom engine, not that you should buy a Tom-Tom - for the reason you mention, I don't want a Tom-Tom and RDS receiver antenna and power lead draped all over my 2012 BMW and all the nasty grease sucker and finger prints where I pull it off every journey. But my vanity, if you can call it that, means I have to tolerate a system that whilst nicely integrated is actually opertionally inferior.

If BMW used a Tom-Tom engine, it would work with your HUD.

[stealth.pilot]

The problem with the poll is that it covers the issue of price. However on the 550 the nav is standard so I can't really complain about the price.

[lindros2]

Originally Posted by StealthBomber

The point I am making is that BMW should use the Tom-Tom engine, not that you should buy a Tom-Tom - for the reason you mention, I don't want a Tom-Tom and RDS receiver antenna and power lead draped all over my 2012 BMW and all the nasty grease sucker and finger prints where I pull it off every journey. But my vanity, if you can call it that, means I have to tolerate a system that whilst nicely integrated is actually opertionally inferior.

If BMW used a Tom-Tom engine, it would work with your HUD.

Really? TomTom engine?

I think it looks cheap and amateur - even in its latest guise. Maybe on a Kia or Toyota (the latter offers TomTom as an option on some cars), but not on a BMW.

How about BMW actually listens to customers and creates a usable navigation system like, say, Nissan?

I sorely miss my Nissan GT-R navigation, which is (other than the touchscreen and redundant round dial) the same as their mass-market Maximia, Murano, and Infiniti vehicles.

[lindros2]

Also isn't BMW revising the navi in the 2013 model year?

[arnsbrae]

Originally Posted by lindros2

Also isn't BMW revising the navi in the 2013 model year?

Yes, Professional Navigation (609) on every 5 series sedan built from start of July 2012 will have the updated version. It is a significant hardware upgrade in terms of chip, memory and graphics.

"Originally Posted by Igoryanych View Post
IT IS new hardware.

Intel processor 1.3Ghz vs Renesas 600Mhz
1Gb RAM vs 512Mb
8Gb flash vs 512Mb
Nvidia graphics vs Fujitsu
200Gb harddisk vs 80Gb
btw... new system has wireless chip inside. That opens up new possibilities."




The screens look quite different but it's not clear what, if any, significant changes there are to functionality.

On the original subject of the BMW navigation option. I am still using the professional navigation option from 2007 (E60), though I have been updating the maps regularly and there has been at least one software update along the way that changed the graphics at least. I have to say, I use it a lot and it's been fine. My biggest criticism would be the traffic information is sometimes out of date, so I tend not to trust it. I have seen an odd quirk in the guidance - it tried to guide me off a motorway and then straight back on again once instead of just going straight on. Over the (almost) five years, it once tried to send me down what I would call a track. Neither of those quirks caused a problem as I found that looking out the window quickly gave me the additional information I needed to avoid a booboo.

I use a Garmin for when I'm renting cars in Europe or the USA. I keep the maps updated on that too but I have still experienced the odd glitch with them. However, it is always a relief to get back in my own car with a nice big screen and no wires, mounts or satnav unit to sort out whenever I stop!

Is it worth having option 609? Definitely (especially now).
Is it worth £2,000. Definitely not.

BMW will have to address this as more and more people rate tech in a luxury car very highly when selecting a car. I think Mercedes has quietly set a time bomb ticking with the Becker Pilot unit available on the C Class. You stick a removable box into a slot in the glove compartment and the navigation works via the car's integrated screen and speakers just a like a normal integrated solution. That costs £500 and should be easy to develop into something more sophisticated. In theory, you could keep it when you sell your car and re-use it in a subsequent Mercedes.
To upgrade the Becker Pilot you just plug it into your home PC and let it do it's stuff.

Audi have countered by including (an admittedly basic) navigation system as standard on the base model A6 in the UK.

Also, in the UK, you can order a "Value" Mercedes E Class Executive edition for company car drivers that includes (an admittedly basic) navigation system as standard.

[lindros2]

Great post by arnsbrae above.

I've been part of numerous focus/study groups in the US over the years. The most recent was an online study which had people do blog entries, take photos/videos, and demonstrate technical savvy.

The previous one was an in-person study for the new Nissan Skyline/Infiniti G37.

Both have deep technical implications. BMW is "behind" the technology leaders, but quite frankly, do you want a 5-series or A6 saloon interior(s) to look like the Tesla Model S? I don't.

Apple's "Eyes Free" mode (via hardware button) + MOG integration (see links below) are a great start.

1. http://articles.businessinsider.com/...-ipod-car-yelp
2. http://www.businessinsider.com/bmw-m...ration-2011-10