[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Ickdeep

And for everyday raining weather, it was very good. Never having to worry about the back end coming out in a corner.

I'm genuinely curious, not confrontational (I swear).

Can you have your M5 step out on you with all the electronics on??

In my 5 years with 535i RWD, the only time I "saw my rear end" ahead of me was when I was goofing around (for the sake of learning how the car behaves) in the rain and also snow (parking lot, safe environment) but this was in sport+ mode (in my opinion, the worst mode BMW ever came up with due to unpredictable amount of "assist" you get - but that's a story for another debate).

All other "assist fully on" (normal, comfort and sport) modes are virtually impossible to have rear end step out on you unless you're totally and blatantly ignorant of your throttle, your speed and road conditions. And even then, worst case scenario I experienced was a bit of a "wiggle" if trying to be "silly", before you're cut off by electronic assists or before you need to counter steer a bit (on super slick surfaces).

[Ickdeep]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

I'm genuinely curious, not confrontational (I swear).

Can you have your M5 step out on you with all the electronics on??

In my 5 years with 535i RWD, the only time I "saw my rear end" ahead of me was when I was goofing around (for the sake of learning how the car behaves) in the rain and also snow (parking lot, safe environment) but this was in sport+ mode (in my opinion, the worst mode BMW ever came up with due to unpredictable amount of "assist" you get - but that's a story for another debate).

All other "assist fully on" (normal, comfort and sport) modes are virtually impossible to have rear end step out on you unless you're totally and blatantly ignorant of your throttle, your speed and road conditions. And even then, worst case scenario I experienced was a bit of a "wiggle" if trying to be "silly", before you're cut off by electronic assists or before you need to counter steer a bit (on super slick surfaces).

All the time, with my stage 1 tune (~650 hp) my traction light comes on quite often. Plus I'm on summer tire right now. When getting off the line or accelerating a little too much within a turn.

That being said, I have never driven a 535i rwd but I never wanted to when I had the option to get xdrive. Knowing that all four tires will grip up when I need it for an emergency is worth it for me.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Ickdeep

All the time, with my stage 1 tune (~650 hp) my traction light comes on quite often. Plus I'm on summer tire right now. When getting off the line or accelerating a little too much within a turn.

That being said, I have never driven a 535i rwd but I never wanted to when I had the option to get xdrive. Knowing that all four tires will grip up when I need it for an emergency is worth it for me.

I understand that your traction light comes on quite often, on the snow, I see it all the time too (and sometimes in the rain).

But, I guess what I was asking is, if traction assist is enough to prevent you from spinning out. For me, the answer is "yes", in every mode but sport+ which is as I said, unpredictable in how much traction assist you will get.

And again, I'm not debating xDrive being better in bad weather, I already stated I believe that to be the case in my previous posts. I'm more interested in significant increase in HP with M5 might prove to be too much for traction to handle?

[Ickdeep]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

I understand that your traction light comes on quite often, on the snow, I see it all the time too (and sometimes in the rain).

But, I guess what I was asking is, if traction assist is enough to prevent you from spinning out. For me, the answer is "yes", in every mode but sport+ which is as I said, unpredictable in how much traction assist you will get.

And again, I'm not debating xDrive being better in bad weather, I already stated I believe that to be the case in my previous posts. I'm more interested in significant increase in HP with M5 might prove to be too much for traction to handle?

Eh you learn to drive with all the power. When I test drove my M5 I was spinning like crazy but now I know when to use it and when not too. Hopefully getting some new tires soon

[TTG]

I am with Ickdeep.

I drove my colleague's 2016 535i RWD Msport to lunch the other day and the rear end came out on the very same turn I take everyday with my X-Drive. I was not doing anything funny and my driving behavior wasn't any different that how I normally drive my car. I actually thought he either had bald or summer tires on but that was not the case. You just forget how good the x-Drive is until, you do what I did and get in an identical car without x-Drive.

Living in Seattle, I will never own a non AWD daily driver.

I have no idea what your price range is but BMW Seattle has my car's twin for sale......

Another thing to note is that not all of these cars are listed as X-drive (case in point in below ad) but they actually are x-drive. So be careful when you are searching!

https://www.bmwseattle.com/certified...912af9eba7.htm

[Trian]

Originally Posted by TTG

Another thing to note is that not all of these cars are listed as X-drive (case in point in below ad) but they actually are x-drive. So be careful when you are searching!

https://www.bmwseattle.com/certified...912af9eba7.htm

And that is why you always run the last 7 VIN to find out what the car actually has.

[dcbullets]

Originally Posted by TTG

I am with Ickdeep.

I drove my colleague's 2016 535i RWD Msport to lunch the other day and the rear end came out on the very same turn I take everyday with my X-Drive. I was not doing anything funny and my driving behavior wasn't any different that how I normally drive my car. I actually thought he either had bald or summer tires on but that was not the case. You just forget how good the x-Drive is until, you do what I did and get in an identical car without x-Drive.

Living in Seattle, I will never own a non AWD daily driver.

I have no idea what your price range is but BMW Seattle has my car's twin for sale......

Another thing to note is that not all of these cars are listed as X-drive (case in point in below ad) but they actually are x-drive. So be careful when you are searching!

https://www.bmwseattle.com/certified...912af9eba7.htm

Really?!?! I have a 2015 535i mSport (RWD) and to have the rear-end "come out" is extremely difficult unless you're in sport + and gun it. I never have traction problems in the snow or rain.

If you truly want to enjoy a BMW sedan, you need to get a RWD. xdrive is so unnecessary and takes the fun out of driving a BMW sedan. but if you feel it gives you a safer ride the few times a year it snows, sure go for it.

[TTG]

Originally Posted by dcbullets

Really?!?! I have a 2015 535i mSport (RWD) and to have the rear-end "come out" is extremely difficult unless you're in sport + and gun it. I never have traction problems in the snow or rain.

If you truly want to enjoy a BMW sedan, you need to get a RWD. xdrive is so unnecessary and takes the fun out of driving a BMW sedan. but if you feel it gives you a safer ride the few times a year it snows, sure go for it.

I should of been more clear...... it was raining out as it usually does in Seattle and car was in normal / comfort mode.

I would agree with you on dry pavement as you have to do something seriously stupid to lose the rear end on these cars.

My point is you have no idea what X-drive behind the scenes is doing for you, until you do which was the case in my point.

F10 is a daily driver for me and my expectation is that it goes where-ever I needed to go without swapping wheels / tires & etc. It has been a great car and thats why it will be replaced with a G30 x-drive over the summer. RWD is not even a consideration.

[Damage Inc]

Good comments from everybody.

Except the comments have me torn lol. Go with x drive for better winter traction but then miss out on the "pure" bmw sedan driving experience.

I'm going to find the best possible car I can get for the money - AWD or RWD. I've driven M cars in MI winters for 10 years with winter tires no issues. If I get an x drive then bonus.

[Surly73]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

Good comments from everybody.

Except the comments have me torn lol. Go with x drive for better winter traction but then miss out on the "pure" bmw sedan driving experience.

I'm going to find the best possible car I can get for the money - AWD or RWD. I've driven M cars in MI winters for 10 years with winter tires no issues. If I get an x drive then bonus.

My 2 cents (both for and against):

• Keep in mind you have an R8 for the "pure driving experience"
• A new option available is xDelete - software on your phone to shut off the transfer case. Maybe use that in the summer? That's my plan as soon as it is available for 8HP transmission F cars. AWD for winter, RWD for summer. Switch on the fly with a phone app and K+DCAN cable.
• The addition of X-Drive adds traction - it also adds weight you can never shed, and a front diff and transfer case to fail (and require maintenance).

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by dcbullets

Really?!?! I have a 2015 535i mSport (RWD) and to have the rear-end "come out" is extremely difficult unless you're in sport + and gun it. I never have traction problems in the snow or rain.

This is my experience as well.

Originally Posted by TTG

I should of been more clear...... it was raining out as it usually does in Seattle and car was in normal / comfort mode.

I would agree with you on dry pavement as you have to do something seriously stupid to lose the rear end on these cars.

My point is you have no idea what X-drive behind the scenes is doing for you, until you do which was the case in my point.

RWD is also doing the work behind the scenes too, c'mon now, this isn't Crown Vic from the 90s.

Any mode but sport+, unless extreme stupidity is attempted (questionable if xDrive would help in those cases), it's impossible to swap ends with all electronics on, this I know for a fact. You'll manage to "move your rear end" a bit, but to spin out is a stretch, electronic nannies are indeed that good.

Yes, once again, xDrive is superior for traction, no doubt, but let's not make RWD into some sort of "unmanageable when wet" monster vehicle, rear end does not just step out on you out of the blue in these cars.

[Pierre Louis]

It hasn't rained hard for a long time here in Savannah but my RWD with relatively new RFT Continental all-season tires did fine in heavy acceleration/merging in heavy wet. Don't really need AWD down here. I would get it in snowy areas, though, as well as winter tires.

Just my $.02

PL

[Damage Inc]

Well, I put a deposit on a 16 535i today. Yeah, its RWD.

Found a sweet deal on exactly what I was looking for so pulled the trigger.

I'll have to pick up some winter tires in the fall like the old days.

Glad to get rid of the 320i for a 535i M Sport.

[yakattack]

Congrats, I grew up in Wisconsin and always owned winter beater cars to prevent my cool/project cars from being ruined by road salt. They were all RWD cars, except one which was a manually switched 4WD ford explorer. The 4WD+high ground clearance was fun/handy on occasion to traverse uncleared roads and towing people out of ditches. However it also wasn't necessary where I lived as main roads were always cleared. I always drove careful with RWD, always coasted through turns or applied only a tiny/gradual blip of throttle when turning and used huge following distances. My cars didn't have traction control though, and I never had winter tires, just run of the mill all-seasons, so I imagine those 2 things would make quite a difference. Anyway, enjoy

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

Well, I put a deposit on a 16 535i today. Yeah, its RWD.

Found a sweet deal on exactly what I was looking for so pulled the trigger.

I'll have to pick up some winter tires in the fall like the old days.

Glad to get rid of the 320i for a 535i M Sport.

Congratulations, hope you like it.

For what it's worth, I cannot recommend Nokian Hakkapeliitta tires enough.
I've had R on my other vehicles, and R2 on this one (there is now R3 out on the market too, no experience with that one) and they are incredible snow and ice tire. Not a high speed performance tire and a little bit louder on dry and wet roads than some others, but that's a trade off I'm willing to take for a superb grip in nasty winter conditions. The only other winter tire I briefly had on this vehicle was Dunlop SP Wintersport, which was better "performance", and good on snow, but not quite as good as Nokian. Besides, these were a lot more expensive as well as runflats, which I'm not a fan personally.

[Damage Inc]

Thanks guys. Great tip on those winter tires. I've had them all. I 100% prioritize winter traction over performance, noise, etc. So I found blizzaks to be the best. But I'll have to price out the Nokian's.

Good news is I dont need winter tires until next winter. I'm currently living in Nashville, relocating to Detroit in the spring. So I've got all spring/summer to enjoy the car then deal with winter tire issue in Nov / Dec.

[Surly73]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

Congratulations, hope you like it.

For what it's worth, I cannot recommend Nokian Hakkapeliitta tires enough.

I'm running R2s myself on my F10, and used to have Dunlop Wintersport 3Ds. I had a set of RSis on my E39. I've also run Michelin Arctic Alpins, Dunlop Wintersport M3, Blizzak WS60s on a couple of RWD BMWs.

I'm based in a suburb of Toronto and Nokians seem to be borderline "too much" for our typical winters. They like it colder, and really work best when roads are not salted. Of course the last two years have had a number of extremely challenging days which the R2s handle excellently. No scary moments and with X-Drive I can launch past everyone else if I wish, even those with winter tires.

I've had these weird times where me driving at 3-4/10 taking a kid to an evening activity with lots of grip and stopping distance in reserve and it shows so much more grip than those around me they start to misbehave and show attitude, fishtailing all over trying to show off because they feel I'm out to prove something. Just drivin' folks... The pickup drivers seem to really get annoyed easily.

The other short list tire when I purchased the R2s in fall 2017 was the Pilot Alpin PA4.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Surly73

I've had these weird times where me driving at 3-4/10 taking a kid to an evening activity with lots of grip and stopping distance in reserve and it shows so much more grip than those around me they start to misbehave and show attitude, fishtailing all over trying to show off because they feel I'm out to prove something. Just drivin' folks... The pickup drivers seem to really get annoyed easily.

Just had a weekend where once again I was reminded just how good they are.

Last 10 km from main to north side parking of ski resort I go to (Tremblant) are snow and ice covered throughout most of the ski season and I'm always blown away by just how much better lateral grip and stopping ability of Nokian is comparing to our other family vehicle (AWD) equipped with (also quite alright winter tire) Michelin X-ice2. Then Sunday morning, quite a bit of freezing rain came down, these tires are really something else.

I can only imagine Nokians + xDrive combo, must be ridiculous good.

[TEF]

Oddly, a recent edition of Consumer Reports rated the Michelin X-ice X3 ahead of the Nokian R3 and three other brands ahead of Michelin. Granted testing conditions can vary as much as winter road conditions, but the difference between top-rated tire (and also one of the cheapest) and the 7th rated tire is virtually nothing. I suspect that the special tread compound, initially used in Blizzaks, is common to most most manufacturers these days. In the case of the CR test, prices for the first seven top rated tires varied from $84/tire up to $147/tire. If one were to believe CR, there seems little reason to spend a fortune on tires that used only in winter and often at lower speeds.

[Surly73]

Originally Posted by TEF

Oddly, a recent edition of Consumer Reports rated the Michelin X-ice X3 ahead of the Nokian R3 and three other brands ahead of Michelin. Granted testing conditions can vary as much as winter road conditions, but the difference between top-rated tire (and also one of the cheapest) and the 7th rated tire is virtually nothing. I suspect that the special tread compound, initially used in Blizzaks, is common to most most manufacturers these days. In the case of the CR test, prices for the first seven top rated tires varied from $84/tire up to $147/tire. If one were to believe CR, there seems little reason to spend a fortune on tires that used only in winter and often at lower speeds.

I can say that Blizzak's compound is not used in Hakkas. Hakkas are high silica. Blizzak "special" is multicell.

Keep in mind wisdom imparted by CR compared with personal experience actually using many of the contenders.

Buy hey, hats off to anyone running dedicated winter tires of any kind. I wish everyone put winter tires on.

[TEF]

Isn't mandatory to use winter tires in most Canadian provinces between certain dates of the year?

[Surly73]

Originally Posted by TEF

Isn't mandatory to use winter tires in most Canadian provinces between certain dates of the year?

In Quebec it is. It certainly isn't in Ontario. Not sure about everywhere else. They're just getting to the point of considering it an insurance perk to have winter tires.