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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 BMW 5-Series (F10) Forums General 5-Series Sedan and Wagon (F10 / F11) Forum Wow...serious/new car damage
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      01-04-2014, 06:41 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun View Post
36 month lease:
9 days driving a perfect BMW
2-4 months driving a Ford Taurus while paying for a 5-series
The rest driving a car with extensive repairs

I will probably sue the other driver. At a minimum, he will think about it when he looks at his credit report.
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Originally Posted by tomegun View Post
I am not trying to benefit from this at all; I don't want anything other than out of pocket expenses (rental after my insurance stops paying) and possible $$$ for the day my wife had to take off.

Anything I would get in diminished value would hopefully be enough to get out of the car immediately and into another BMW.
I feel for you 1000%, but I have to ask, why sue the other driver? He had legal coverage and stopped when the accident happened. Accidents happen, that's why they are accidents. Between his insurance company and your insurance company, everything should be settled, that's why you both have insurance. Not the other driver's fault that you leased and the worst case scenario happened and you are now stuck with the car.

Don't be sue happy like everyone else in this country for an honest mistake. What would you even sue for? The fact that you are driving a Taurus and crashed a 9 day old car? That's just life, it happens. Don't go running around suing people for what seems like petty expenses (cost of a rental car and a day's work which seems like about all you could sue for if you are claiming to not be trying to benefit from this) in the grand scheme of things. You'll spend more in fees and lost time than you will gain.

If you're not happy, go after his insurance company. And in fact, your insurance company should step up to bat and go after them if they are worth their salt. Shouldn't be any need to sue the other driver IMO for an honest traffic accident. I think maliciously trying to go after someone over an accident is wrong and pretty low-class. If you didn't have underinsured motorist coverage while driving a nearly $70k car, then that is YOUR fault. Why should a guy driving a car that is only worth $10k have to make sure he's carrying $300k in insurance in case he has an accident with a Bentley?

Sounds to me like you just want to sue him and take it out on him personally because neither his nor your insurance company will cut you a $60,000 check.

Last edited by puma1552; 01-04-2014 at 06:47 PM..
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      01-04-2014, 11:34 PM   #68
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Puma, I don't see anywhere in your post where you say you don't understand...because you don't.

First, I did talk to BMW and because the car is at an approved repair facility and USAA guarantees their work, everything should be OK on that part. As long as the car is turned back in repaired properly everything will be OK. If it isn't repaired properly I can just take it back to the body shop.

Back to Puma. The other driver carries the minimum insurance for property damage in Nevada - $10k. The amount of diminished value for the car will likely be more than $10k. If that is the case, who should be responsible for that amount? Right, the other driver.

Out of 36 lease payments - 36 months - we will enjoy the car as we leased it for 9 days...and it was no fault of our own. Of those 36 payments, we may have the pleasure of driving a Ford Taurus for up to 4 payments...and it was no fault of our own. If we want to trade the car in to get a car without extensive repairs, diminished value will come into play. If we were to get any money for diminished value I don't mind passing that money right on to BMW assuming it will be enough to cover what will be owed to get into another vehicle. But keep in mind, if we get any money for damages other than the repair, I will not ignore money out of my pocket - sorry if you disagree, but I am not in the habit of paying for someone else's mistakes. That seems kind of stupid to take money from my family to pay for the mistakes of someone I don't even know.

If I receive an amount for diminished value that covers my expenses and the difference to get out of the car there is no reason for a lawsuit. If I get an amount from the insurance company and the other driver steps up to make up the difference BECAUSE HE IS RESPONSIBLE there is no reason for a lawsuit.

In reviewing your post you said, "Not the other driver's fault that you leased and the worst case scenario happened and you are now stuck with the car." This is where you make no sense because it is absolutely the other driver's fault. Would THIS situation have occurred if he was paying attention and didn't make an illegal U-Turn? While you are telling me not to be "sue happy" would you tell the other driver to step up and make the situation right if you had the chance to? Insurance companies to not pursue other insurance companies for diminished value and the insured party's own insurance company does not pay diminished value. I would hope you would have known that before passing judgement. Underinsured motorist insurance has nothing to do with diminished value and I do have that coverage. Again, you are making assumptions about things you don't know.

You called me low-class and you don't even know me. I being responsible for what I do and expect others to do the same. I don't know you and wouldn't want to pay for your mistakes just like I don't want to pay for this guy's mistake. It has nothing to do with whether it was an honest mistake or not, it was a mistake he made. Accountability and responsibility is a problem in the world today and you happen to be someone making the situation worse. I think your logic is totally flawed and you spoke (typed) about something you don't really know about. Do I know everything about it? Certainly not, but I wouldn't call someone names even if I thought I did.
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      01-05-2014, 12:00 AM   #69
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You should be going after the insurance company (his or yours) for diminished value, not the other driver; that's where the disconnect is. What good is insurance if you have to resort to personal lawsuits? Sounds like a problem with your insurance company not stepping up to go to bat for you and getting diminished value from his insurance company, which I agree they should pay. I have had experience with two accidents and two insurance companies, neither of which were the fault of the people on my end. In one case, our insurance company went to bat to get diminished value from the other company, and in the other case, the other insurance company provided a few thousand bucks after just asking for it. That's MN though, if NV isn't that way, that's too bad and that's a problem with NV law. Perhaps your lawsuit would be better aimed at the state. How are you going to feel when you make a mistake and someone in a Bugatti hits you and sues you for over $100,000 in diminished value? Do you really think that's right? Are you going to just volunteer a $100k check? I doubt it.

Again, what's your time worth? Personally my time is worth more than the financial value of what will amount to an absolute maximum - and likely much less - than the $10k you MAY receive in a lawsuit. Do you really want to drag something out for six months, spend a bunch of money on lawyer's fees, wade through a bunch of paperwork, and probably end up at best getting any money you do receive bit by bit via garnished wages? Sounds like a waste of time to me for someone who can drive a $70k car.

The first post of yours I quoted makes it sound as if you only became interested in suing the other owner once you learned that the insurance companies weren't going to cut you a $60k check, and you want to destroy the other guy's credit. That's malicious, and tasteless.

You're upset, and I understand that, but you are also bitter about the fact you are stuck with a messed up car for the next 36 months, you've made that clear. That is, unfortunately, part of the problem with leasing. That's not the other owner's fault. The accident is indeed his fault, sure; you not being able to unload the car now that you no longer want it and insurance isn't cutting a large enough check for your tastes is actually not his fault. Sorry it's not what you want to hear.

Believe me, I feel for you, I do - but I don't agree with your intentions based on what you've written.

Last edited by puma1552; 01-05-2014 at 12:14 AM..
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      01-05-2014, 01:28 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
You should be going after the insurance company (his or yours) for diminished value, not the other driver; that's where the disconnect is. What good is insurance if you have to resort to personal lawsuits? Sounds like a problem with your insurance company not stepping up to go to bat for you and getting diminished value from his insurance company, which I agree they should pay. I have had experience with two accidents and two insurance companies, neither of which were the fault of the people on my end. In one case, our insurance company went to bat to get diminished value from the other company, and in the other case, the other insurance company provided a few thousand bucks after just asking for it. That's MN though, if NV isn't that way, that's too bad and that's a problem with NV law. Perhaps your lawsuit would be better aimed at the state. How are you going to feel when you make a mistake and someone in a Bugatti hits you and sues you for over $100,000 in diminished value? Do you really think that's right? Are you going to just volunteer a $100k check? I doubt it.
Maybe you don't know or understand diminished value. My insurance company, USAA, does not pursue diminished value claims. If your did that is great, I wish I had a company that did right now. Of the $10k in the insured's policy, if I got a cut USAA and the city (damage to a light pole) wants a cut too. If the diminished value is $5 then everything is good, if it is more that is part of making the situation right. Just to check, I just looked at my policy. I have $50k coverage for property damage. Since I'm not convinced that you know what diminished value is, that means that after an insurance company makes the other party whole - car repaired - there is potential to get $50 for property damage...at least this is my current understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
Again, what's your time worth? Personally my time is worth more than the financial value of what will amount to an absolute maximum - and likely much less - than the $10k you MAY receive in a lawsuit. Do you really want to drag something out for six months, spend a bunch of money on lawyer's fees, wade through a bunch of paperwork, and probably end up at best getting any money you do receive bit by bit via garnished wages? Sounds like a waste of time to me for someone who can drive a $70k car.
What is my time worth...interesting concept. I spend a great deal of my time working. But working for me is a means to an end, a way to provide for my family. When someone does something to negatively impact that - to take away from my family - they become public enemy number one. With the information given, how are you so sure the amount I would receive in a lawsuit would be $10k or less? I don't have enough information to know that right now, so enlighten me as that will determine how I proceed. If you are just guessing, you are just talking about something you don't know. You don't know my situation with the legal system - you don't know if I am a lawyer or if my best friend is a lawyer - and you don't know how much money the other guy has. It wouldn't be too far fetched that someone that drives a car like the other driver's could have some money. You know, don't judge a book by its cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
The first post of yours I quoted makes it sound as if you only became interested in suing the other owner once you learned that the insurance companies weren't going to cut you a $60k check, and you want to destroy the other guy's credit. That's malicious, and tasteless.
Diminished value was a concern of mine from about 30 minutes after I went to the accident site and found that my wife was OK. You don't understand - I don't want any money other than the amount I am out. I would like to drive a 2014 528 that doesn't have extensive repairs and I don't mind paying for it while I am leasing it. Not looking to gain anything. Do you think the other guy is responsible for diminished value if his insurance policy doesn't cover the damage? You mentioned my situation with the lease being the worse case and that also shows you don't know what you are talking about. The worse thing that can happen at this point is I drive a car with extensive repairs - repaired by a certified facility - until December 2016, turn it in and move on to the next one. If I purchased the car that would be a much worse scenario because then I would have to suffer the loss when/if I turned the car in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
You're upset, and I understand that, but you are also bitter about the fact you are stuck with a messed up car for the next 36 months, you've made that clear. That is, unfortunately, part of the problem with leasing. That's not the other owner's fault. The accident is indeed his fault, sure; you not being able to unload the car now that you no longer want it and insurance isn't cutting a large enough check for your tastes is actually not his fault. Sorry it's not what you want to hear.
I have a predetermined end to the situation. I get the feeling that you don't like leases. If this was a purchase I would really be upset because the future would be impacted past three years. Do you understand GAP insurance that comes with leases and what BMW financial looks for when a leased car is turned in? It sounds like you don't really know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
Believe me, I feel for you, I do - but I don't agree with your intentions based on what you've written.
I'm not sure what you think my intentions are other than having the situation that wasn't my fault made right. If that is through his insurance company I am cool with it, if it is through him I am cool with that. My car had more that $30k in damage and all the air bags were deployed in the accident. If we were out to really get something don't you know how easy it would be? My wife could complain about back issues (something hard to disprove) and we could seek money for that. That would be money we could keep. Since she isn't hurt, and insurance fraud isn't something I would like to do, we aren't going that route.

I think you should step back and look at what it is I am trying to do.
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      01-05-2014, 08:05 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
If you didn't have underinsured motorist coverage while driving a nearly $70k car, then that is YOUR fault. Why should a guy driving a car that is only worth $10k have to make sure he's carrying $300k in insurance in case he has an accident with a Bentley?
This is exactly how everyone should be insured. You need to plan for driving your $10k car, and hitting someone that has something worth alot more and protect yourself from having personal liability. Why should his insurance pony up over and above the level of coverage paid for. They shouldn't and they aren't from the OPs statement.

You are also correct, the OP should be properly insured as well to cover any potential losses he might incur. I would honestly check with someone here who works for BMW, and the the scoop on how they handle this on a lease return ... if he won't be charged for excess damages .. then it sucks ... but get it fixed and live with it ... atleast it's just a rental and you'll give it back to BMW in good time.

In any event .... glad I opted for MAX insurance coverage on my auto & a $3M umbrella policy.
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      01-05-2014, 08:56 AM   #72
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I am very sympathetic to the OP's situation, but I would advise that he be very careful with this claim. The first thing to keep in mind is that a claim of diminished value is a claim for economic loss, not one for emotional distress. You may be sad and disappointed that your nearly brand new car will have been damaged and repaired, and you may even be concerned that the repair will leave it vulnerable to mechanical or electrical problems that it would not otherwise have had. Those are not economic injuries. They are a state of mind, however unattractive it may be to you. They are not compensable as such. Your car will be repaired to BMW's standards and if you drive it for the rest of the lease term, BMW will take it back and everything else -- with the exception of your state of mind -- will be as it was and would have been without the crash, including the manufacturer's warranty and whatever warranty comes with the repairs.

If that's not good enough for you, and you want out of the lease, you can probablyt sell the car and pay the lease balance due to BMWFS. You won't get as much for the car as you owe on the lease, so you will now have an economic loss. But now imagine what the car was worth in the instant before the crash. It had been sold, titled and licensed, and (lightly) used. Its warranty and maintenance clocks had started to run. It wasn't new any more, and wasn't any longer worth what it cost new. That depreciation or loss of value is yours to bear (unless you can rely on gap coverage), and not the responsibility of the person who caused the crash, or his insurer. And it's a big chunk of change including not only actual depreciation but the spread between retail and wholesale value at that moment, and any transaction costs, and even what you may have paid in up-front leasing costs as origination fees and capital cost reduction. If you try to recover diminished value through this route, you'll also have legal expense and court costs to bear on your own, as these are not recoverable as a rule. It's not a path I would choose.
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      01-05-2014, 10:25 AM   #73
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OP, good luck, hope it works out. Do what you feel you gotta do, I guess.
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      01-05-2014, 10:43 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grover432 View Post
I agree with Raleedy, but will go further. You don't know what you are talking about. BMW will insist their car goes to an approved repair centre and will accept the car back without penalty at the end of the lease. There is zero issue for the OP. The only way diminished value is even an issue is if the OP planned to buy the vehicle at lease end because if a residual that was lower than market value and he had originally intended to buy it out and flip it. In most cases BMW sets the residual higher than the car will be worth at lease end to keep the payments low and help move cars, so many people just turn their cars in. With a very low lease rate, this is but another reason to lease.
If that is true ... then that's great for a lessee, and then the point is moot. I don't know what I'm talking about as I clearly indicated ... however was educated speculation.
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      01-05-2014, 12:06 PM   #75
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I appreciate all the responses. In this case I am fortunate it is a lease. I am also fortunate it is being repaired at a certified facility. According to the guy handling this he has his best technician on it; the only person he lets work on his 5 series.

I don't plan on losing any money in this deal with frivolous lawsuits; I will handle this in a manner that is appropriate. That may mean the other driver has to pay out of his pocket or it may not. That is yet to be determined.

The car did its job, my wife is Ok and the worse case is we will drive the car until 2016. For all I know the insurance company could change their mind and total it tomorrow. At this point I spend more time talking about this on the forum than I do in real life.

Now, go 49ers!!!
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      01-05-2014, 02:52 PM   #76
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My 2010 accident in my retired E60 was not as major as yours ($14,000) but the entire left side and both bumpers needed some sort of replacement or repair, along with the replacement of half of the rear suspension. I insisted the auto body have my BMW dealer check the car to verify it was at factory specs. They paid the cost (i.e. Insurance paid).
The good news for me was that the repaired car behaved and drove exactly as it did before the accident (high speed, three complete spins and two impacts). I owned the car and kept it for 2.5 years. My wife and I were completely unhurt which we attribute solely to the car.
I may be the only one to experience this but the repairs were superb and I hope your experience during your lease is both enjoyable and uneventful.
Good luck.
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      01-05-2014, 06:34 PM   #77
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Don't sue - as a lease you won't have much to stand on... It'll waste your time and money. Either try to get it totaled or just live with the repair and turn it in. This is really BMW's loss considering they've agreed on a residual value and that's now in jeopardy. You've been insulated from that loss in fact.

I'd try for a total... Short of that, just move on. The car will be OK if repaired correctly.
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      01-07-2014, 01:42 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pillpusher84 View Post
If that is true ... then that's great for a lessee, and then the point is moot. I don't know what I'm talking about as I clearly indicated ... however was educated speculation.
Discussion on diminished value in a lease seems to be centered around a "what if" scenario involving a lessee who wants to get out of his lease early by trading the car in on a different model. It seems to me the lessee would buy the car out at its current value (based on the lease documents) and then trade it to the dealer, who presumably would give you less because the car had been in an accident. Of course the major loss to the lessee would be the difference between the buyout value and the actual market value (even before considering any accidents) which at the beginning of the lease can be significant.

I think the diminished value argument on a lease is a pretty difficult one to make as the lessee would be asking the court to award him a $ amount based on a theoretical loss if he should decide to trade his car in before lease end. That $ amount changes as the age of the car changes and there may be no loss if he elects to drive the car to the end of the lease and return it. I question whether a judge would award an amount in the case where the loss is not certain to accrue to the lessee who see himself as an "owner" when he really isn't. If he/she did make an award, it might be to compensate in a situation where there was no actual loss because the car was never traded, or wan't traded at the date the action was filed.

I understand that the OP is pissed at the situation, but his real loss is that he will be making lease payments on a BMW while driving a loaner. There is insurance for that kind of stuff that makes it less costly than trying to sue for that paltry amount (in my opinion).
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      01-08-2014, 06:53 AM   #79
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What kind of insurance are you talking about when you mentioned insurance for driving a loaner while making lease payments?

If in fact it came to a suit and a judge said I couldn't get anything because it is a lease that is fine. I am not looking to make out like a bandit. Like I said previously, if we wanted to just get paid my wife would go the route of saying the accident hurt her back. Thankfully she is fine.
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      01-08-2014, 09:23 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun View Post
What kind of insurance are you talking about when you mentioned insurance for driving a loaner while making lease payments?

If in fact it came to a suit and a judge said I couldn't get anything because it is a lease that is fine. I am not looking to make out like a bandit. Like I said previously, if we wanted to just get paid my wife would go the route of saying the accident hurt her back. Thankfully she is fine.
The only TYPICAL insurance I know of in this case is just a rider for rental coverage. All it does is pay for a rental while your car is in the shop, and it's typically only for something in the economy or mid-sized budget range... you won't be getting a BMW to drive.

Short of that, there's GAP insurance, which covers the "gap" between what you owe and what the car is worth in the case of a total loss. All BMW Financial Services leases include GAP insurance by default.

So, I'd say you're unfortunately out of luck if you lease a BMW and end up driving a Ford Focus for a month while it's being repaired. Can you sue the other party (or their insurance) for your 1 month lease payment? Sure, I guess. Or you can always just attempt to negotiate this with the insurance company when you get your repair estimate - much easier than suing anyone. If the car is truly estimated to be out of commission for a month or more, they may just surprise you and agree to cover your lease payment.

Another option to look at, if none of the above pans out, is your BMW dealer. If the dealer has a repair shop (obviously not all dealers do), they may be willing to work with you if you're a good customer. Many moons ago, and while I lived elsewhere, I had a small accident with my 325i - similarly, not my fault. Someone backed into it while it was parked in an airport parking lot. My BMW dealer's repair shop actually did the work on the car and they were willing to provide me with another BMW to drive (for the 5 or 6 days it took), and I believe somehow (trying to remember back 10+ years ago!) I was able to use the rental coverage to reimburse them for whatever was covered by the other party's insurance. Whatever the details though, it worked out. The dealer and shop did me a big favor - I knew the head SA there well, etc, etc. So I'm sure this isn't something they would have just otherwise offered as an option.

Anyway, best of luck with it. Negotiating NOW with the insurance company is always better than trying to recoup what you feel would be losses later in a law suit. A law suit should really be your very last resort to any problem. It's tedious, expensive, and not fun. I honestly couldn't imagine suing anyone over 1 month (or even 2) of lease payments - the ends wouldn't justify the means. This is clearly a case where you want to negotiate for it up-front, and press hard to get it. But if push really comes to shove, and there's just no way you can recoup that money by negotiating, I'd just let it go. That's just me, though. It's not worth the time and aggravation.
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      01-08-2014, 11:49 AM   #81
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My insurance pays $50/day and a max of $1,500. We have a rental already.

I have to contact the other guy's insurance; the car will be in the shop longer than my insurance will pay.
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      01-08-2014, 07:15 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun View Post
My insurance pays $50/day and a max of $1,500. We have a rental already.

I have to contact the other guy's insurance; the car will be in the shop longer than my insurance will pay.
Don't most body shops offer a courtesy car of some sort?
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      01-08-2014, 08:53 PM   #83
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Quote:
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Don't most body shops offer a courtesy car of some sort?
In our corner of the U.S., not so much. This is a big chunk of the business of Enterprise car rentals -- insurance-paid rentals for crash repairs.
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      01-09-2014, 09:18 AM   #84
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Location: Canada

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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
In our corner of the U.S., not so much. This is a big chunk of the business of Enterprise car rentals -- insurance-paid rentals for crash repairs.
Sadly, stuff happens. Im sure you can buy insurance to cover almost anything from specialty insurers, although most people don't go searching for it. I guess the OP will have to settle for a GM product until his car is repaired. Maybe he'll get lucky and the insurer will write the car off and he can just get a new one. At least no one was hurt.
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