[gatoman39]

Originally Posted by rhinosaur

I don't know about previous instances but his post is completely informative and on-topic so what's the problem with that?

Not on point at all. The OP is asking should he dump his factory fill, not about changing his oil every 3k miles. He also called people who reject his point "bimwads" and SPAM's every oil thread with the same posts to the same links, over and over again, that's the issue I have.

Originally Posted by The X Men

As CNC manufacturering technology get better and better, the tolarance of automotive parts get tighter and tighter. The metal shavings from break in is reduced and the shavings itself is smaller. There is really no need to flush out the metal shavings anymore in today's engines after the 1st 1000 miles.

While I agree this is not critical to do, there is empirical data suggesting that this strategic maintenance of dumping the factory fill is a preventive move with an eye toward ultra-long engine life. Explain to me why BMW insists the N54 engine in a 1M car gets the factory fill dumped at 1200 miles, but in a 335is, it doesn't? Is the N54 in the 1M so different than in a 335is as to require a oil break-in schedule in one car and not in the other? It's called marketing and cost reduction.

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by gatoman39

Not on point at all. The OP is asking should he dump his factory fill, not about changing his oil every 3k miles. He also called people who reject his point "bimwads" and SPAM's every oil thread with the same posts to the same links, over and over again, that's the issue I have.


While I agree this is not critical to do, there is empirical data suggesting that this strategic maintenance of dumping the factory fill is a preventive move with an eye toward ultra-long engine life. Explain to me why BMW insists the N54 engine in a 1M car gets the factory fill dumped at 1200 miles, but in a 335is, it doesn't? Is the N54 in the 1M so different than in a 335is as to require a oil break-in schedule in one car and not in the other? It's called marketing and cost reduction.

First off, if Bronson has not fled this thread in disgust: my comments in my first post about BMW engineers and (if you can't trust the BMW engineers) why did you buy the car in the first place, etc., were unnecessary and ill-advised (chalk it up to hardened arteries and my lack of socialization). If you do decide to change the oil now, you might consider doing a UOA with one of the labs I mentioned. What the hey, if you post the report, I'll send you a check to cover the cost of the UOA. Then we can all have a look at the real world.

"Bimwad" (as I use the term and as I've seen it used sometimes on other forums) is a term of near endearment and fraternity - - it's like gearhead. I'm a bimwad. We're all bimwads. Why else would we be on this forum. We love the car and love talking to others of a like mind - - even if we don't all agree sometimes.

Why does BMW say the 1M (and other M cars) need the factory fill dumped at 1200 mi, but BMW doesn't require this on other cars? I don't know. It's true I think that the N54 is an N54 is an N54, and the N54 in the 1M is probably the same as the N54 in the 335is, etc. But it's the factory fill on the M's that might be different in some respects. This is really a wild guess, but I believe some vegetable esters have exceptional anti-wear properties that might be useful during break-in a high-po engine, but they oxidize rather rapidly and you wouldn't want them hanging around in an oil meant for extended drain intervals. Thus, early on you want the oil drained. Just a guess. But I am still firmly of the opinion that BMW doesn't do it to "wash out" wear metals. I had a e46 M3 and dutifully drained the oil at 1200 mi. I also took a sample and did a UOA. The wear metals were practically non-existent.

[gtron]

i enjoyed reading this thread. even if the posts have been repeated elsewhere, i have not come across them yet. if there is repetitive content then there should be a sticky. otherwise, repeat away imo.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by gatoman39

While I agree this is not critical to do, there is empirical data suggesting that this strategic maintenance of dumping the factory fill is a preventive move with an eye toward ultra-long engine life. Explain to me why BMW insists the N54 engine in a 1M car gets the factory fill dumped at 1200 miles, but in a 335is, it doesn't? Is the N54 in the 1M so different than in a 335is as to require a oil break-in schedule in one car and not in the other? It's called marketing and cost reduction.

Isnt that part of the M break in service where they give the car a once over after the break in period.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

First off, if Bronson has not fled this thread in disgust: my comments in my first post about BMW engineers and (if you can't trust the BMW engineers) why did you buy the car in the first place, etc., were unnecessary and ill-advised (chalk it up to hardened arteries and my lack of socialization). If you do decide to change the oil now, you might consider doing a UOA with one of the labs I mentioned. What the hey, if you post the report, I'll send you a check to cover the cost of the UOA. Then we can all have a look at the real world.

"Bimwad" (as I use the term and as I've seen it used sometimes on other forums) is a term of near endearment and fraternity - - it's like gearhead. I'm a bimwad. We're all bimwads. Why else would we be on this forum. We love the car and love talking to others of a like mind - - even if we don't all agree sometimes.

Why does BMW say the 1M (and other M cars) need the factory fill dumped at 1200 mi, but BMW doesn't require this on other cars? I don't know. It's true I think that the N54 is an N54 is an N54, and the N54 in the 1M is probably the same as the N54 in the 335is, etc. But it's the factory fill on the M's that might be different in some respects. This is really a wild guess, but I believe some vegetable esters have exceptional anti-wear properties that might be useful during break-in a high-po engine, but they oxidize rather rapidly and you wouldn't want them hanging around in an oil meant for extended drain intervals. Thus, early on you want the oil drained. Just a guess. But I am still firmly of the opinion that BMW doesn't do it to "wash out" wear metals. I had a e46 M3 and dutifully drained the oil at 1200 mi. I also took a sample and did a UOA. The wear metals were practically non-existent.

I don't go to every auto forum out there so don't know how many times you have posted this, but I find your posts very informative. Thank you!

[Bronson]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

First off, if Bronson has not fled this thread in disgust: my comments in my first post about BMW engineers and (if you can't trust the BMW engineers) why did you buy the car in the first place, etc., were unnecessary and ill-advised (chalk it up to hardened arteries and my lack of socialization). If you do decide to change the oil now, you might consider doing a UOA with one of the labs I mentioned. What the hey, if you post the report, I'll send you a check to cover the cost of the UOA. Then we can all have a look at the real world.

"Bimwad" (as I use the term and as I've seen it used sometimes on other forums) is a term of near endearment and fraternity - - it's like gearhead. I'm a bimwad. We're all bimwads. Why else would we be on this forum. We love the car and love talking to others of a like mind - - even if we don't all agree sometimes.

Why does BMW say the 1M (and other M cars) need the factory fill dumped at 1200 mi, but BMW doesn't require this on other cars? I don't know. It's true I think that the N54 is an N54 is an N54, and the N54 in the 1M is probably the same as the N54 in the 335is, etc. But it's the factory fill on the M's that might be different in some respects. This is really a wild guess, but I believe some vegetable esters have exceptional anti-wear properties that might be useful during break-in a high-po engine, but they oxidize rather rapidly and you wouldn't want them hanging around in an oil meant for extended drain intervals. Thus, early on you want the oil drained. Just a guess. But I am still firmly of the opinion that BMW doesn't do it to "wash out" wear metals. I had a e46 M3 and dutifully drained the oil at 1200 mi. I also took a sample and did a UOA. The wear metals were practically non-existent.

I have not fled, lol. I have read all the comments and opinions given hear and do truly appreciate the feedback. I am new to BMW, having been a Mercedes and Acura guy, once I saw the 535 MSport, I fell in love and quickly traded my Acura Type S, Jap Crap... Lol. I am looking for ways to improve and extend the life of my car. I beat on the car mercifully after 700 miles or so, and that is why I raised the topic.

[m6pwr]

I'm glad some folks found my posts helpful or of interest. When questions come up about oil change intervals, I'm just trying to present a side of the issue not often heard. After that it's whatever the owner decides is best for him or her.

[luvthestck]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

I'm glad some folks found my posts helpful or of interest. When questions come up about oil change intervals, I'm just trying to present a side of the issue not often heard. After that it's whatever the owner decides is best for him or her.

Besides your opinion I appreciate your patience even more.I wish I had your cool.

[rhinosaur]

Originally Posted by luvthestck

Besides your opinion I appreciate your patience even more.I wish I had your cool.

Couldn't agree more!

[jadnashuanh]

FWIW, my last car was an Infiniti M35x, and the factory oil change interval was 3750 miles! I thought this was truly a big waste, and started doing oil analysis periodically. I found that with Mobil 1 (not the best synthetic out there, but cheap), I could regularly go over 3x the interval before the TBN value started to get low - the wear indicators were fine and the oil was still fully capable of protecting the engine. For various reasons, I chucked that car and bought the BMW. The regular oil analysis did catch a slight coolant leak (nothing visible in the oil) that I was able to fix before any damage was done, so doing this has some merit, regardless.

The oil specified by BMW for their engines has a pretty expensive set of additives and should easily meet the engine's needs for the full duration of the computer's monitoring period. Change it at one year, or when the computer says, and it should last as long as you want to keep the car. Want to save the engine? Don't pound it until you at least see the oil temp going up. Don't sit and idle after a cold start, but move off gently.

[Amleto63]

Originally Posted by jadnashuanh

FWIW, my last car was an Infiniti M35x, and the factory oil change interval was 3750 miles! I thought this was truly a big waste, and started doing oil analysis periodically. I found that with Mobil 1 (not the best synthetic out there, but cheap), I could regularly go over 3x the interval before the TON value started to get low - the wear indicators were fine and the oil was still fully capable of protecting the engine. For various reasons, I chucked that car and bought the BMW. The regular oil analysis did catch a slight coolant leak (nothing visible in the oil) that I was able to fix before any damage was done, so doing this has some merit, regardless.

The oil specified by BMW for their engines has a pretty expensive set of additives and should easily meet the engine's needs for the full duration of the computer's monitoring period. Change it at one year, or when the computer says, and it should last as long as you want to keep the car. Want to save the engine? Don't pound it until you at least see the oil temp going up. Don't sit and idle after a cold start, but move off gently.

+1

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by jadnashuanh

FWIW, my last car was an Infiniti M35x, and the factory oil change interval was 3750 miles! I thought this was truly a big waste, and started doing oil analysis periodically. I found that with Mobil 1 (not the best synthetic out there, but cheap), I could regularly go over 3x the interval before the TON value started to get low - the wear indicators were fine and the oil was still fully capable of protecting the engine. For various reasons, I chucked that car and bought the BMW. The regular oil analysis did catch a slight coolant leak (nothing visible in the oil) that I was able to fix before any damage was done, so doing this has some merit, regardless.

The oil specified by BMW for their engines has a pretty expensive set of additives and should easily meet the engine's needs for the full duration of the computer's monitoring period. Change it at one year, or when the computer says, and it should last as long as you want to keep the car. Want to save the engine? Don't pound it until you at least see the oil temp going up. Don't sit and idle after a cold start, but move off gently.

+1. You've said it all, in a nutshell.

[BigP535I]

I'm at 6k now and dont drive the car hard often, for now I'll wait for the computer to say so. However when I had an 07 335, I changed the oil my own even before the computer advised but when I did change it the mechanic said I waited to long as the oil was quite black and had reeked of gasoline smell. I'm wondering for future ref do I wait on the computer to tell me to do so? The computer interval is quite long somewhere in the 10k range when I had the 3.

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by BigP535I

I'm at 6k now and dont drive the car hard often, for now I'll wait for the computer to say so. However when I had an 07 335, I changed the oil my own even before the computer advised but when I did change it the mechanic said I waited to long as the oil was quite black and had reeked of gasoline smell. I'm wondering for future ref do I wait on the computer to tell me to do so? The computer interval is quite long somewhere in the 10k range when I had the 3.

Oil color and smell are very inaccurate indicators. The oil will turn black very quickly (even on those 1200 mi oil changes we've been discussing - - and probably within 120 mi on a diesel) and is completely normal. The gasoline smell comes from fuel dilution which is a characteristic of gasoline direct injection engines. Not just BMWs, but all gdi engines. I believe (my own pet theory) that BMW deliberately runs the oil so hot (240-250 F) in order to limit (to burn off) some of the fuel dilution. But like it or not, if you've got gdi, you've got fuel dilution. You, as an operator can limit fuel dilution by limiting the frequency of cold starts after short trips, and by avoiding, if you can, periods of long idling. If not, I wouldn't worry about it. The worst effect of high fuel dilution is that it will lower the viscosity of your oil. BMW LL01 5w30 oils start at a high viscosity to begin with (they're almost 5w40). And newer BMWs have a fairly sophisticated oil life monitor (they call it an oil condition sensor) in the sump. The newer Bosch olm's actually measure the oil's viscosity by transmitting sound waves thru the oil. How trick can you get. So I think (hope) the olm would indicate an oil service due if the vis got too far out of grade.

The oil change interval on our 535's is around 15000 mi. When you first start the engine, keep an eye on the instrument cluster. It will list the mileage 'til the next oil change. It disappears pretty fast (the message that is). You can also look it up on the iDrive (vehicle status I think). The 15000 figure is probably driving under optimum conditions. With short trips, many cold starts, etc. your oil service message might come up sooner. If you're really concerned about it, do an oil change on your dime at 7500 and send a sample off for a UOA. Post the results here. I'll bet the UOA shows lots of life left in the oil.

[gatoman39]

Originally Posted by BigP535I

the mechanic said I waited to long as the oil was quite black and had reeked of gasoline smell.

You can't tell much from color or smell. If you do get a UOA, you have to specify the TBN test, (total base number) measures the amount of active additive left in a sample of oil. $25 for the standard test + $10 for the TBN.

[tp550i]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

You DO NOT have to change the oil at 1200 miles..... Check out this SAE paper reporting on a study done by Ford and Conoco that shows that fresh oil does not do as good a job of lubricating (particularly preventing wear) in the first 3000 mi of use as "aged oil": http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/......Leave the factory fill in and do not change the oil. You will gain nothing by changing it early.

Originally Posted by m6pwr

Moving on to a more constructive discussion: Maybe those of us who do used oil analyses (UOA) should post the reports on this forum...

For those that are interested, there are two labs that I'm familiar with: Blackstone (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/) and Polaris (http://www.polarislabs.com/). Polaris is the better of the two - - they do a better job of measuring fuel dilution, which is something you want to keep an eye on in gasoline direct injection engines. Doing UOA's is relatively cheap, it's fun, and we may learn a thing or two.

Your first post refers to SAE tests which demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. Based upon this you recommend and claim "you do not need to change your oil... you will gain nothing". While the test referenced is informative and good testing - I disagree with your blanket recommendation and would not make that claim based upon this test alone.

On a later post you hit a real concern - fuel dilution. Each owner encounters unique driving conditions (weather, urban, etc) and driving habits that can make an impact.

I posted my 2600 mile analysis (oil and filter change) that indicated slightly higher copper levels, not unexpected during break-in. The oil analysis also flagged higher fuel dilution and to my surprise resulting lower viscosity - a real concern. My 6700 mile (oil and filter change) analysis flagged significantly higher nitration levels, while the copper levels dropped after the initial oil/filter change.

I would agree an oil analysis should be performed - but I would not rely solely on your referenced test results when other factors may impact your particular engine conditions. Do the oil analysis and react based upon the results.

I'll likely continue my own oil/filter change and oil analysis at the midpoint between the oil monitor recommendation.

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by tp550i

Your first post refers to SAE tests which demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. Based upon this you recommend and claim "you do not need to change your oil... you will gain nothing". While the test referenced is informative and good testing - I disagree with your blanket recommendation and would not make that claim based upon this test alone.

On a later post you hit a real concern - fuel dilution. Each owner encounters unique driving conditions (weather, urban, etc) and driving habits that can make an impact.

I posted my 2600 mile analysis (oil and filter change) that indicated slightly higher copper levels, not unexpected during break-in. The oil analysis also flagged higher fuel dilution and to my surprise resulting lower viscosity - a real concern. My 6700 mile (oil and filter change) analysis flagged significantly higher nitration levels, while the copper levels dropped after the initial oil/filter change.

I would agree an oil analysis should be performed - but I would not rely solely on your referenced test results when other factors may impact your particular engine conditions. Do the oil analysis and react based upon the results.

I'll likely continue my own oil/filter change and oil analysis at the midpoint between the oil monitor recommendation.

Well, now we're getting into the nitty gritty. I have no problem with anything you said. It's your car and you should do whatever you're comfortable with as far as oil change intervals are concerned. This applies particularly to doing regular UOAs, for your particular car in your particular service, and in how you wish to interpret the results.

Interpretation of oil analysis reports - - books have been written about this subject, and industry training courses and certification are the norm in many professions.

There was an excellent article not too long ago in "Tribology and Lubrication Technology" magazine. I can't provide a link because the article has been archived. The article was about the "condemnation limits" used by various labs and UOA users. Condemnation limits sound ominous but it's merely a term of art used to indicate when a particular aspect of oil condition has reached a point where the oil MAY need to be changed (and not that engine damage is taking place). FWIW here's a summary:

The CL's used by oil analysis labs are very conservative (the CYA syndrome) and there is no agreement among them on many of the various CL's.

Automotive oil change intervals are developed jointly by the oem's and their lubricant partners after considerable research and field testing. [In this regard, I read a recent article online that VW, working with Castrol, spent 5 million dollars and several years developing the oil spec and oci for their current diesels.] The CL's/oci developed jointly by the lube mfrs and the oem's in this process are the most realistic and reliable. [The problem is that oem CLs are not published and few normal consumers of UOA's know these CL's.]

In interpreting UOA reports, any one metric below the CL for that item is NOT a reason to shorten the drain interval. For example, a % fuel dilution beyond the accepted CL is not a reason to shorten the drain interval unless the viscosity at 100 C is also below the accepted CL for vis retention. And just one UOA is not an absolute. You need to see trends.

With the possible exception of ppm iron (which in high concentrations can make the oil abrasive), elemental analysis (wear metals) is not as important as the condition of the oil (vis, flash point, % fuel dilution, TBN). The two most important metrics in UOAs are vis retention and Total Base Number or TBN (indicates the ability of the oil to neutralize acid build up).

The following are rough averages of the CL's used by many labs and companies that do UOA's, as reported in the article:

Viscosity at 100 C: anywhere from plus or minus 10% to 18% of the vis in the VOA (virgin oil analysis) depending on who you talk to. A simpler CL is for the oil to stay in grade. For most BMW LL01 5w30 oils that means between 9.3 and 12.4 centistokes at 100 C.

Fuel dilution: 3 - 5 % (again, depending on who you talk to).

TBN: 1 (that is the CL currently used by Blackstone and the one I think is most realistic). Some labs (I think Polaris is one) use one half the TBN in the VOA (i.e. if VOA TBN is 10, then CL would be TBN of 5 - - way, way too conservative I think); others use 1/3 the VOA TBN. Interpretation of TBN can be tricky. Many of the newest oils start off with relatively low TBNs (around 6 or 7). The TBN initially drops quickly a couple of points in the first couple thousand miles, then stabilizes and drops very slowly thereafter.

Iron: 150-200 ppm. The ppm of the other wear metals should be looked at for trends. High copper, for example, is very common in BMWs. It is probably attributable to copper leaching from the oil cooler, and not so much a true wear item, and it will probably stay high for many UOA's.

Oxidation: 30-50 abs/cm
Nitration: 30-50 abs/cm One source indicated a good synthetic should be able to handle 50. I have to admit I have no idea what the metric abs/cm refers to. If you're concerned about these metrics I'd recommend talking to the lab.

One final thought on % fuel dilution. Every discussion or explanation of this metric that I've ever seen, particularly by the labs, is that it is a sign of incomplete combustion in excessive idling, or worn piston rings. If that is the root cause standard they are using in developing their CL for fuel dilution, I'd have to say they are way behind the times. http://papers.sae.org/2002-01-1647/

[toneil44]

My 2011 535xi is at 11811 miles. Into service 3/1/11. iDrive says change engine oil in 9000 miles or 01/2013. Presumably whichever comes first.

I figure in Jan 2013 I'll have 15000 miles, which is the same interval as for my previous 2004 e60. I drive about the same mileage now as I did w/ my e60 - 7500 miles per year. Only then, w/ the e60, BMW would authorize an engine oil change every year.

I recall reading somewhere that BMW has stopped their practice of giving you a free oil change once per year regardless of mileage. Now it is once per year only if driven under 6000 miles per year. Anybody confirm that?

If it is 15000 miles before BMW authorizes an oil change, what's the consensus here, (or lack of consensus) too long or just right for a BMW?

[TheRealOrosie]

Originally Posted by Alan l.

Bmw is concerned with the motor lasting 50K miles. After that.....Cha ching $$$

I'm not so sure. BMW CPO's a shitload of their cars...with warranty up to 100k miles...its not like they want the engines to break after 50k.

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by toneil44

I recall reading somewhere that BMW has stopped their practice of giving you a free oil change once per year regardless of mileage. Now it is once per year only if driven under 6000 miles per year. Anybody confirm that?

If it is 15000 miles before BMW authorizes an oil change, what's the consensus here, (or lack of consensus) too long or just right for a BMW?

I'm not sure I understand the mileage and date figures you mentioned. Why not talk to your Service Advisor - - or don't you trust your SA? My last BMW was a 335d diesel. I asked my SA about the annual oil service. He made a copy of the page from the BMW Center Operations Manual (this was about 6 mos. ago). As for the gas BMWs, according to the Center Manual, they get an annual oil service if the actual mileage doesn't ring the CBS computer bell. The confusion (which extends to some SA's) is that the cbs computer on the new BMWs seems to be coming through with the European oil change TIME interval on them: 2 years from month and year of manufacture. This is what is more or less standard in Europe I believe (if not, will our Euro brethren please chime in). I have heard (from other owners on the forums) that the dealers will gladly still do an annual oil service at no charge if requested by the owner, even if the cbs doesn't show an oil service due.

As for the 15k cbs dictated oil service interval, I don't think there is any consensus on this forum. If you've read all of this thread you should know where I stand (with BMW). I've been told, by someone who knows, that BMW, among many other Euro car makers, employs the services of an independent company that specializes in field testing new models for maintenance parameters, oil change intervals among them (not to mention the field testing BMW does in the US for stuff like air conditioning). My mystery source is a friend of a gentleman whom he calls a "BMW engine development engineer" who works in conjunction with the field testing company. Think also of the Lubrizol article I mentioned above that gave as an EXAMPLE of this kind of program VW spending years and 5 million dollars to research the oil specs and change intervals for their oil on their new class of passenger car diesels.

On the other hand, there is a lady who lives on my block at the end of a long pipe stem driveway. I see her most mornings in her night gown pull out of the garage, drive to the end of the driveway in her sparkling Lexus, get out (actually she kind of hangs out of the driver's seat), pick up the morning paper and then drive back into the garage. Would BMW field test for this kind of service? Doubtful.

I wish that the folks, when they have their oil changed, either early or at the dealer at the BMW interval, would do used oil analysis and post their reports on this forum. Then we would all have a specific datum to discuss and learn from. The VW TDI diesel forum has such a sticky of hundreds of such reports. C'mon guys and girls, are a bunch of VeeDub geeks more technically oriented than us elite BIMWADS!!!?

TP550i will you be first and post your report?

[tp550i]

initial and 2nd oil changes are posted here..

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthre...2#post12698862

Should have the first dealer oil change complete in about 30 days and will post that as well.

[m6pwr]

tp550i: Thanks so much for posting your UOA. FWIW here are my comments:

The second one looks quite good to me overall. The bit about nitration is kind of weird. Normally oxidation and nitration increase at roughly the same level or proportion. I'm no expert but one of the reasons it can get out of sync is if crankcase oil temps are relatively low and oil never gets up to full operating temp (as in a lot of short trips?). Anyway, the TBN and vis retention are quite good. If nitration was interfering with the oil, TBN would be down and vis up, but they look good.

Another thing: it always helps to do a virgin oil analysis of a sample of unused oil; it can help a lot sometimes in interpreting the UOA. I did a VOA on the Castrol oil BMW uses for their diesels and it showed 10 abs/cm for both oxidation and nitration straight out of the bottle. The lab (Polaris) was no help in explaining this, but after checking around, it seems esters in the oil can sometimes fool the infrared FTIR into thinking/showing there is oxidation/nitration when there is none. So you have to keep this VOA number in mind when interpreting the UOA data on the particular oil. VOA's can also help a lot when interpreting TBN retention, vis retention, and even sometimes silicon numbers (some oils use it as anti-foamimg agent) in the UOA.

One other thing: your first UOA showed fuel dilution measured by gas chromatography (GC), but your second showed it as estimated. Maybe not enough oil in the sample bottle for all the various tests?