[k44ENT]

I noticed today that my car's steering wheel, after a right hand bend, will return back to centre if I let go of the wheel where as it will not fully return to centre after a left hand bend. You don't really notice it unless looking for it, I only noticed it today because I hit a pot hole with the passenger side front wheel whilst turning right at low speed and was therefore checking for any issues / damage so became sensitive to the steering. The car does not pull but if you travel down a straight road and tug the steering to the right a few degrees and then let go it will return to centre BUT if you tug it to the left and let go it will return only slightly and stay heading left, if you then manually centre it it will remain in a straight line. Steering force seem equal left to right. Any one else noticed this?
Maybe this is the evidence of the pull that some speak of in that early UK cars seemed to pull to the left so the EPS software update compensates for this and trys to return the wheel to centre but doesn't quite manage it, almost like software fighting mechanical forces? My car is an November 2010 build.

[Alan48]

I have same issue. Steering is also vague at centre... I see there seems to be a software update for this (recent post states so), so I may mention it when my car goes in for it's first service. My car is November 2010 build.

[k44ENT]

Originally Posted by Alan48

I have same issue. Steering is also vague at centre... I see there seems to be a software update for this (recent post states so), so I may mention it when my car goes in for it's first service. My car is November 2010 build.

My steering isn't vague around the centre point, in fact I love the way it feels it's just the fact it behaves different from right to left. I would have thought our cars had the latest software for the EPS?

[jensputzier]

I have the similar problem that the car does not drive straight ahead as I am used to with BMWs.

At higher speeds (>130 km/h, 80 mph) you need to correct the direction slightly almost all the time.

A while ago they figured that the upper dome bearing of the shock absorbers was installed in the wrong direction. After fixing that incl. adjusting the front suspension the problem was not as bad as before. But still...

Yesterday I drove on the Autobahn for 30 miles with cruise control set at 160 km/h (100 mph), as there was no traffic.

I suddenly realised what the problem is:

Usually when you drive and the car goes off a little to one side, you make a small correction with the steering wheel and the the car goes straight ahead again.

With my F10 when you make a small correction to one side, the steering kind of sticks and the car continues to go into the direction of the correction, even when you take the hands off the wheel.

This forces you to make a correction to the other side, causing the same problem over and over again, keeping you correcting the course of the car all the time.

You can even make the car drive long turns on it's own. I would laugh if this was funny......

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by jensputzier

I have the similar problem that the car does not drive straight ahead as I am used to with BMWs.

At higher speeds (>130 km/h, 80 mph) you need to correct the direction slightly almost all the time.

A while ago they figured that the upper dome bearing of the shock absorbers was installed in the wrong direction. After fixing that incl. adjusting the front suspension the problem was not as bad as before. But still...

Yesterday I drove on the Autobahn for 30 miles with cruise control set at 160 km/h (100 mph), as there was no traffic.

I suddenly realised what the problem is:

Usually when you drive and the car goes off a little to one side, you make a small correction with the steering wheel and the the car goes straight ahead again.

With my F10 when you make a small correction to one side, the steering kind of sticks and the car continues to go into the direction of the correction, even when you take the hands off the wheel.

This forces you to make a correction to the other side, causing the same problem over and over again, keeping you correcting the course of the car all the time.

You can even make the car drive long turns on it's own. I would laugh if this was funny......

This makes so much sense and could explain the 'degrees' of steering issues users have. From just the vague feeling, to constant correction, to the 'cogging' that has been reported. The user with 'cogging' had a new rack, if I remember correctly and that cured it.

I suspect the steering has degrees of sensitivity, across the builds. Could be mechanical, as I've come across this same effect as described here, with failing steering racks. Sort of 'tight point' and it translates to odd centering and/or different left to right cornering. Interesting, as the OP has a different 'left to right' return to center.

But will BMW try a few more new steering racks to see if this cures the sensitivity? Or at least try.... and see if it changes the steering feeling.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Posted by N16E

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439506

Hi,

Having done over a 1000 miles now I can't help feeling that at around 80mph my steering feels "wooden", almost notchy, even jerky. I know it stiffen with speed but it feels wrong...anyone else noticed anything similar?

N16E

OK, heres the update -
1 week, 1 steering rack, 1 160 mile test drive, 1 ZF engineer from Germany & 1 master BMW technician later my car is fixed......

When the BMW Technician intially drove my car he immediately told me he knew it wasn't right, and diagnosed it as the steering rack, thinking ahead they ordered one, last Friday the ZF engineer and Technician drove my car 160 miles hooked up to a laptop performing various tests, during the test drive the ZF engineer said the "forces" were within tolerance, however the BMW technician told him it wasn't right (he told me it made his arm hurt). The ZF engineer was reluctant to change the rack, but after some discussion (small argument) he agreed. When I quizzed the technician about what was wrong with the rack things became a little unclear, he did mention a "software issue", however this seems odd, they changed some hardware and it resolved a software issue...anyhow the rack is going back to ZF (this is not the normal practice) for further tests, and my case has been logged in PUMA (BMW knowledge database). If your steering feels odd at speed (it's really is horrid) then you may have a similar issue.

Good work Rybrook BMW especially Ian (technician)

My need to constantly correct the steering was solved with a new steering rack (I'm guessing perhaps a software upgrade as well), since having the work carried out 4000 miles ago my car drives just as it ought to - safely and in a straight line (not too much to ask I know).

N16E

PS - my fault was the steering cogging feel, not drifting to the left.

Now is that "cogging feel" what is described by many, but in varying degrees, given the experience of jensputzier, driving at higher speed?

HighlandPete

[k44ENT]

This is getting very interesting, so are we saying that the build tolerance's of the EPS components is varying enough to give a steering issue in some cases and that the issue shows it's self in a number of ways varying from poor self centering (in my case after left turns only), vague on centre feel causing constant corrections through to cogging (varying resistance whilst turning). I also think that the alignment of and software controlling the EPS coupled with the rack tolerances play a part as well, as my car tracks much straighter and is more stable at speed since the alignment was done. I am still unsure if my issue is due to road camber as a good sharp tug either left or right will see the wheel turn to centre it's only the gentle turns left (and right to a far lesser degree) that see it not return to centre. But what is causing it to behave different from left to right, tyres maybe, road camber? or could this be the rack as well?
I have just checked tyre pressures and they were all down 2 psi so now I'm back at 30psi front and 34psi rear I'll see how she drives tomorrow.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by E61

This is getting very interesting, so are we saying that the build tolerance's of the EPS components is varying enough to give a steering issue in some cases and that the issue shows it's self in a number of ways varying from poor self centering (in my case after left turns only), vague on centre feel causing constant corrections through to cogging (varying resistance whilst turning). I also think that the alignment of and software controlling the EPS coupled with the rack tolerances play a part as well, as my car tracks much straighter and is more stable at speed since the alignment was done.

I'm not saying the steering rack/assembly is the cause, but being in mechanical engineering R&D for most of my career, getting inside of problems and trying to isolate causes, has always been part of how my mind works.

From my perspective, the whole issue is complex, as we have a lot of variables and a final tolerance stack, which does involve mechanical parts, particularly the EPS steering assembly (with its own build stack of tolerances) chassis alignment, software, and rim/tyre options. And of course the roads we run on.

Cause and effect... that is the difficult one, and what change will any particular part of the total system, make to the whole.

I'll illustrate with my current car 3-series, fitted with OEM run-flat tyres. My steering was to say the least, unpredictable. Some days good, other days it felt loose and wandered about.

Now on good roads there was more consistency, poor roads the problem was more frequent. Different ambient temperatures also made the problem more, or less, of an issue. So it looked as if the tyres were a major part of the problem. Different tyres, with less sidewall stiffness, problem completely solved, road quality made no difference, neither did temperature variations.

Conclusion, the RFT has much tighter working parameters, therefore in my day to day driving the steering becomes more easily corrupted. Softer tyres the working parameters are widened, my problem solved.

Back to the F10/11, BMW have changed a lot of the design features, including moving across to EPS. I can't see BMW knowing there is a particular weakness, even with so many changes in one model, as each step of the development must have gone through 'toll gates' and been approved. It is why I suggest it could be a production issue, or a tolerance issue, but not necessarily from just one part of the whole. So we could have a set of alignment figures which work perfectly with all tyre types, and sizes, but not if the steering assembly is to a certain build stack. An adjustment to the alignment could mask a steering issue, in most day to day conditions.

If there was an easy software fix, all cars could have it and the issue over. But if there is something 'mechanical' which doesn't allow a software fix, on all cars, that starts getting more complex to fix. Swapping a steering rack may solve some customers issues, but will it solve all? Only if BMW and ZF know what the exact issue is they are correcting, by fitting a new assembly.

Easy for BMW guys to just say any variation is normal, even if some cars are perfect in all conditions.

HighlandPete

[John1111]

I have driven my new 535xi a little over 100 miles and do not like the steering. First I don't like the "sports leather steering wheel" that came with the Sport Package. I find it very smooth and slippery and therefore not easy to grip. Does anyone else feel this way about this wheel? Just curious. I had gotten the "sports leather steering wheel" with my 2008 535xi and that wheel was far superior to this one.

Also I find that when I make left or right turn, after I make the turn the wheel does not come back to center and I actually have to turn the wheel back to get the car going straight again -- i.e. when I make a left turn, after the turn I have to physically turn the wheel right to get the car to go straight again. I've never experienced this in any car and certainly not in my 2008 535. Has any one else experienced this problem or do you even think it's a problem? I would appreciate any feedback.

[jondoc72]

the same happends to my wife's 2009 x5
on the highway the steering is laser sharp with no corrections at all, like riding on reels, even at speeds above 100mph
but when turning left or rigth the steering wheel does not come back to center at slow speeds

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by John1111

I have driven my new 535xi a little over 100 miles and do not like the steering. First I don't like the "sports leather steering wheel" that came with the Sport Package. I find it very smooth and slippery and therefore not easy to grip. Does anyone else feel this way about this wheel? Just curious. I had gotten the "sports leather steering wheel" with my 2008 535xi and that wheel was far superior to this one.

Also I find that when I make left or right turn, after I make the turn the wheel does not come back to center and I actually have to turn the wheel back to get the car going straight again -- i.e. when I make a left turn, after the turn I have to physically turn the wheel right to get the car to go straight again. I've never experienced this in any car and certainly not in my 2008 535. Has any one else experienced this problem or do you even think it's a problem? I would appreciate any feedback.

Problem.

My steering is plenty messed up, but it does self-center after a turn.

[radarguy]

Mine (hydraulic PS) doesn't self center on the first turn of the day out of my driveway. Or at least it does not center very rapidly. After that it's fine.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by E61

I noticed today that my car's steering wheel, after a right hand bend, will return back to centre if I let go of the wheel where as it will not fully return to centre after a left hand bend. You don't really notice it unless looking for it, I only noticed it today because I hit a pot hole with the passenger side front wheel whilst turning right at low speed and was therefore checking for any issues / damage so became sensitive to the steering. The car does not pull but if you travel down a straight road and tug the steering to the right a few degrees and then let go it will return to centre BUT if you tug it to the left and let go it will return only slightly and stay heading left, if you then manually centre it it will remain in a straight line. Steering force seem equal left to right. Any one else noticed this?
Maybe this is the evidence of the pull that some speak of in that early UK cars seemed to pull to the left so the EPS software update compensates for this and trys to return the wheel to centre but doesn't quite manage it, almost like software fighting mechanical forces? My car is an November 2010 build.

The car will have a very slight tendency to follow the road camber, but it shouldn't be to the extent that you're aware of compensating for it.
If the pothole encounter was significant and if you feel that it made a difference to the cars handling, you might have disturbed the alignment. Very subjective and difficult to assess, I know, but if you're in doubt, I'd recommend an alignment check.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

...I'll illustrate with my current car 3-series, fitted with OEM run-flat tyres. My steering was to say the least, unpredictable. Some days good, other days it felt loose and wandered about.

Now on good roads there was more consistency, poor roads the problem was more frequent. Different ambient temperatures also made the problem more, or less, of an issue. So it looked as if the tyres were a major part of the problem. Different tyres, with less sidewall stiffness, problem completely solved, road quality made no difference, neither did temperature variations.

Conclusion, the RFT has much tighter working parameters, therefore in my day to day driving the steering becomes more easily corrupted. Softer tyres the working parameters are widened, my problem solved....

Very interesting what you say about good and bad days - I thought I was beginning to lose the plot when I noticed this in my F10. I've been driving cars for 50 years and, whilst I don't claim to be an expert, I have a reasonable sense of feel behind the wheel and I couldn't understand why or how the car would behave so differently, but I also found it difficult not to trust in my own judgement.
I've been acutely aware of this good day/bad day inconsistency for some time and, as we know, the tyre issue has been discussed at great length in other threads. Your comment about the effects of ambient temperature might explain why I noticed a slight, but definite, improvement after my tyres were filled with nitrogen.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

...Back to the F10/11, BMW have changed a lot of the design features, including moving across to EPS....

If there was an easy software fix, all cars could have it and the issue over. But if there is something 'mechanical' which doesn't allow a software fix, on all cars, that starts getting more complex to fix. Swapping a steering rack may solve some customers issues, but will it solve all? Only if BMW and ZF know what the exact issue is they are correcting, by fitting a new assembly....

Along with an alignment check, a dealer loaned set of larger wheels and recent EPS software upgrade, my F10 remains the same and, following a recent 300 mile test drive in an F12, I think the issue may be due to the switch from hydraulic to electric assist steering. The following is an extract of my email to the dealer:

"As I have repeatedly said: for such a big car the F10 handles remarkably well in negotiating a series of bends with the suspension set in 'sport' or 'sport+' and provided that a positive cornering force is being applied to the wheel, the car is very responsive and a pleasure to drive. However, in a straight-ahead cruise the steering still seems too light, lacks feedback and feels somewhat vague and unresponsive with the wheel on-centre, which results in constant corrective inputs being required in order to maintain a steady heading. This is evident in all suspension modes, but more noticeable with 'normal' or 'comfort' selected. The secondary effect of this is that the car has a tendency to wander off-line if you pay anything more than a fleeting glance to the sat-nav or idrive menu.
Like many other F10 owners, I share the view that this is an unwelcome side effect of the steering now being electric motor assisted as opposed to hydraulic and my recent drive in the F12 further qualifies this opinion. Certainly the 640i's steering was significantly quicker, doubtless due to different rack gearing, and combined with the stiffer suspension it resulted in very responsive and impressive handling through the corners. However the straight-ahead steering characteristics were very much like my F10, albeit to a lesser degree, and this has been commented on in some early motoring press reviews. This hasn't necessarily caused me to discount the F12 as my next car, but I sincerely hope that BMW will take heed of all feedback and devise a permanent solution, which I feel will only be achieved by reverting to hydraulically assisted steering as per the 'M' cars. In other words, unlikely to happen in this fuel efficiency driven age, but I hope they may find a way of regaining the traditional BMW feel whilst maintaining their eco-friendly credentials. Of course I realise this is all conjecture on my part but it would appear that this alteration in steering characteristics is coincident with the design change."

I have faith in my dealer and I'm sure they've done all they can. For what it's worth I'll relay my comments to BMW UK and remain hopeful, that if enough of us do likewise, a solution might eventually be found.

[HighlandPete]

Regarding the day to day differences in my 330d, on RFTs... I may have mentioned this before, but I had the car jacked up a couple of times myself, to look for the loose part. Even had my garage check it out as well, when in for a service. In the end I was even suspecting the steering rack or hydraulic valving was at fault. I could get a very loose feel, mid centre.

Since removing the RFTs, no issues at all, perfect steering. Because I had the RFT shod wheel set, I could fit them back on... same issues again. But the temperature issue seemed to be the trigger, both my wife and I had the same experience, my wife didn't like it at all, when the car was loose and unpredictable. We both found it was worse around 12 - 14 degrees C, but not restricted to that ambient temperature range.

The fact it is hydraulic assisted steering, and was like it early in the car's life, keeps my mind open to the EPS systems still being corrupted (at least partially) by RFTs.

HighlandPete

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

The fact it is hydraulic assisted steering, and was like it early in the car's life, keeps my mind open to the EPS systems still being corrupted (at least partially) by RFTs.

HighlandPete

I found that switching to non-RFT's did not help my steering issues. It did improve feel, though.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I found that switching to non-RFT's did not help my steering issues. It did improve feel, though.

Interesting, I can't remember your exact issues (though have read your posts), not doubting there are issues in the steering itself, that is clear, from the many examples.

A problem I sense with EPS there are so many ways the system can be tuned. I was driving a Peugeot 3008 the other day and the self centre feeling was so pronounced, it was as if the steering was on elastic bands, tugging you back to mid position. The other extreme I suppose, to a vague mid position and wander.

HighlandPete

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I was driving a Peugeot 3008 the other day and the self centre feeling was so pronounced, it was as if the steering was on elastic bands, tugging you back to mid position. The other extreme I suppose, to a vague mid position and wander.

HighlandPete

I found the same thing on a friends 2003 e46 325ci .. i had been driving a r170 and found it totally new and weird. Felt like a horse and buggy vs. a video game go kart.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Interesting, I can't remember your exact issues (though have read your posts), not doubting there are issues in the steering itself, that is clear, from the many examples.

A problem I sense with EPS there are so many ways the system can be tuned. I was driving a Peugeot 3008 the other day and the self centre feeling was so pronounced, it was as if the steering was on elastic bands, tugging you back to mid position. The other extreme I suppose, to a vague mid position and wander.

HighlandPete

I agree. I do not think that EPS has been fully worked out yet....

[Shake n Bake]

Originally Posted by jensputzier

With my F10 when you make a small correction to one side, the steering kind of sticks and the car continues to go into the direction of the correction, even when you take the hands off the wheel.

Isn't this desireable though? The vast majority of roads are always going to have a slight camber one way or the other for drainage. What you describe above allows you to adjust for that and then the car stays straight.

You couldn't build in a slight offset to account for it as I would imagine the camber is subtley different from road to road, perhaps lane to lane.

I think is working as designed and is just great. You set the wheel and it knows this is "straight" on this current road. No need for constant adjustments

[BimmerGuyFL]

Originally Posted by Shake n Bake

Isn't this desireable though? The vast majority of roads are always going to have a slight camber one way or the other for drainage. What you describe above allows you to adjust for that and then the car stays straight.

You couldn't build in a slight offset to account for it as I would imagine the camber is subtley different from road to road, perhaps lane to lane.

I think is working as designed and is just great. You set the wheel and it knows this is "straight" on this current road. No need for constant adjustments

I AGREE 100%!