[BMWrules7]

Sorry, I typed Mr. Grimlock in me iPhone and the in line spell checker changed it to Mr. Trimming!

See, nothing is immune from software intervention!

Originally Posted by BMWrules7

Excellent research and conclusions Mr. Trimming!

[schen]

I do agree with your point of view wrt the debounce feature which is a common way of protection in digital/analog controlled system. I think beemer qualify to be a digital/analog system.

Originally Posted by BMWrules7

Sure. You only believe things that BMW says.

Why would BMW disclose to anyone that their cars have a built in latency on the accelerator as a means to improve safety?

BMW will never admit it. Unless, of course they get sued for a runaway gas pedal accident. If they ever had such a lawsuit and they did not settle then you might find some juicy testimony in the record.

But, you want us all to believe that there is zero latency attributable to safety. BMW would be insane not to have specific algorithms to ensure the driver's inputs on the gas pedal are consistent with the driver's intent.

In this beautiful and most litigious USA, I can say with absolute certainty that any fly by wire throttle system will have logic to prevent accidents from malfunctions and mistakes.

You think BMW is going to avoid putting such safety logic in their cars because they want to please only you?

A faster processor and a better gas pedal ain't going reduce the latency. The latency is based upon human factors and this will always require a 100 ( or whatever) or more millisecond delay. It gives you the chance to change your mind. And, as such it is safer in most cases. Not all cases, but see my post about airbus above for a better understanding.

Just like the brake force system designed to apply full brake pressure when you only tap the brakes at the right time is based on human factors too. For some reason people don't slam the brakes when they should. And this system compensates beautifully doesn't it?

And so does the delay in the throttle. If BMW took away the delay you would have all kinds of people blaming the fly by wire throttle as "too sensitive" and "dangerous."

Most people don't complain about the delay. But BMW is not going to tell anyone about this feature unless they get sued from a related accident.

Finally, just because BMW won't say what I am saying does not make my point false. You don't have to believe me. Nevertheless, lack of BMW's blessing does not somehow invalidate my points that the latency is an intentional safety feature of the throttle system.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by BMWrules7

Sorry, I typed Mr. Grimlock in me iPhone and the in line spell checker changed it to Mr. Trimming!

See, nothing is immune from software intervention!

If we can't get our iphones to do what we want, what's the chance we can get our Starship Enterprise to obey? Zilch.
Everytime that annoying jerk surfaces, or even the thought of having our lightening quick reflexes further dulled by the safety lag, we can think of how Bmw has our backs, and what a wonderful world we live in.

[yogi799]

OK, this thread has become a bunch of garbage. Can we pls get mr BMWrules7 to hold off on the comments for a while. We get your "point" about safety. Thanks for your input (no sarcasm there).

This problem seems very worrisome, especially as I am getting ready to shell out $62.3k plus tax on a base 535 myself...

I have test driven one two weeks ago and did not notice a problem. That, however, was my first time test-driving this gorgeous car, so I admit I may have been blown away by its power and quality of ride, to not notice the hesitation.... Second test-drive, however, has revealed the very problem we're discussing here. I was dumbfounded as I wanted to accelerate smoothly (half way floored gas pedal) from about 35mph to notice that bothersome delay and the sudden surge as the car shifted down one or two gears. I did not like how it felt, assuming 300 f/lbs of torque would just pull me forward, however, I have attributed the delay to the time required for the tranny to downshift. I did, however, wonder why it would need to do that given so much power (torque) at hand. I simply blamed too many gears in the transmission! Was I wrong? I don't know... because the salesman then told me to try the manual sport mode and the hesitation promptly went away! I put it in the 5th or so at 45mpg, floored it and the turbos and huge torque responded immediately! So where is the truth?? Maybe it's not so much of a delay we are observing here, but the result of too many gears in the transmission??? I still question why on earth have they made that many! So maybe that is the culprit? If the car attempts to save gas and shifts into 6th or 7th gear at 45-50mph, then sudden half-flooring will not produce desired acceleration until the car reduces to 3rd or 4th, which DOES require some time... Wrong?

Whatcha think? For me, I am in for another test drive tomorrow.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by yogi799

OK, this thread has become a bunch of garbage. Can we pls get mr BMWrules7 to hold off on the comments for a while. We get your "point" about safety. Thanks for your input (no sarcasm there).

This problem seems very worrisome, especially as I am getting ready to shell out $62.3k plus tax on a base 535 myself...

I have test driven one two weeks ago and did not notice a problem. That, however, was my first time test-driving this gorgeous car, so I admit I may have been blown away by its power and quality of ride, to not notice the hesitation.... Second test-drive, however, has revealed the very problem we're discussing here. I was dumbfounded as I wanted to accelerate smoothly (half way floored gas pedal) from about 35mph to notice that bothersome delay and the sudden surge as the car shifted down one or two gears. I did not like how it felt, assuming 300 f/lbs of torque would just pull me forward, however, I have attributed the delay to the time required for the tranny to downshift. I did, however, wonder why it would need to do that given so much power (torque) at hand. I simply blamed too many gears in the transmission! Was I wrong? I don't know... because the salesman then told me to try the manual sport mode and the hesitation promptly went away! I put it in the 5th or so at 45mpg, floored it and the turbos and huge torque responded immediately! So where is the truth?? Maybe it's not so much of a delay we are observing here, but the result of too many gears in the transmission??? I still question why on earth have they made that many! So maybe that is the culprit? If the car attempts to save gas and shifts into 6th or 7th gear at 45-50mph, then sudden half-flooring will not produce desired acceleration until the car reduces to 3rd or 4th, which DOES require some time... Wrong?

Whatcha think? For me, I am in for another test drive tomorrow.

You are not describing the delay that we are discussing. The delay / hesitation issue is ONLY present when pulling away from a stop.

What you are describing is the car's normal operation. The car, when in D mode, will adapt to your driving style. It will upshift quite early normally, it is not unreasonable to be in 8th gear at 50 MPH if your adaptation is "not aggressive". Putting the car in sport mode, as you noted, makes things much more aggressive.

My solution, get the Sport Auto Transmission so you can pre-emptively downshift a couple of gears using the paddles. THe car will also learn your behavior and if you push on it, it will respond.

(By the way, there is only one turbo).

[BMWrules7]

Gee Mr. Yogi Bear,

I see, your blah blah blah is much more interesting, informative and entertaining than my blah blah blah.

Last time I looked this was a free country buddy.

I don't post on every thread, but this thread interests me for many reasons that aren't important to you.


I am focused on the latency that exists when you increase the throttle from idle. That is all.

This was the essence of our discussion for the most part.

You don't have to read my posts, but I am not sure you have any authority to stifle my posts.

Plus, if you believe this thread is garbage, why are you continuing to post?

Finally, it sounds to me like you only want to hear from people that see your point of view. There have been some good challenges to my argument that the throttle delay is a safety feature. Why don't you want me to respond? Are you afraid of slowly discovering your arguments are futile and can't survive the test?

Originally Posted by yogi799

OK, this thread has become a bunch of garbage. Can we pls get mr BMWrules7 to hold off on the comments for a while. We get your "point" about safety. Thanks for your input (no sarcasm there).

This problem seems very worrisome, especially as I am getting ready to shell out $62.3k plus tax on a base 535 myself...

I have test driven one two weeks ago and did not notice a problem. That, however, was my first time test-driving this gorgeous car, so I admit I may have been blown away by its power and quality of ride, to not notice the hesitation.... Second test-drive, however, has revealed the very problem we're discussing here. I was dumbfounded as I wanted to accelerate smoothly (half way floored gas pedal) from about 35mph to notice that bothersome delay and the sudden surge as the car shifted down one or two gears. I did not like how it felt, assuming 300 f/lbs of torque would just pull me forward, however, I have attributed the delay to the time required for the tranny to downshift. I did, however, wonder why it would need to do that given so much power (torque) at hand. I simply blamed too many gears in the transmission! Was I wrong? I don't know... because the salesman then told me to try the manual sport mode and the hesitation promptly went away! I put it in the 5th or so at 45mpg, floored it and the turbos and huge torque responded immediately! So where is the truth?? Maybe it's not so much of a delay we are observing here, but the result of too many gears in the transmission??? I still question why on earth have they made that many! So maybe that is the culprit? If the car attempts to save gas and shifts into 6th or 7th gear at 45-50mph, then sudden half-flooring will not produce desired acceleration until the car reduces to 3rd or 4th, which DOES require some time... Wrong?

Whatcha think? For me, I am in for another test drive tomorrow.

[grimlock]

It's easy to call 'garbage' what you do not understand, which, evidently appears to be alot

[yogi799]

BMWrules7,

My friend... I did not call your comments 'garbage' but the following few posts which veered off topic talking about iPhones, starships and other unrelated things and also some arguments heating up prior to that.

I have also read the entire thread and have noticed that you've stated your opinion (fact?) multiple times, hence I've recommended not to repeat them again, and perhaps allow others to bring about another point of view, facts, experiences, etc. Hence I have shared mine for the first time in this thread. It is a free forum, of course, so if you feel like repeating the same point about safety, you have all the right to do so, of course! Just wonder if it makes any sense. That was all I was trying to say. I apologize if you felt offended. That was not my intention.

And I do not have an opinion on this... frankly, it'd be pointless if I did. Facts are what matters, not my opinon - so as I've said, I am going in for another test-drive tomorrow and will try to observe the behaviour NeedsDecaf has rightfully corrected me on. I may have noticed a bit of that as well, but since I was a bit confused on the issue, I will watch it during the test drive and share my experiences as soon as I'm back.

[DuneMan]

I'm starting to notice slightly different symptoms from different drivers. Even though we're all talking about hesitation, delay, jerking.

So, let me explain my symptoms:

- Delay in responding to throttle from stop in all modes (normal, sport, sport+)

- Jerk after responding in all modes (the jerk is stronger in sport, sport +)

- Hesitation when trying to accelerate from low speeds (10-20 mi/hr) in all modes (makes it risky when entering a round about)

- Hesitation when trying to accelerate from normal speeds (40-50mi/hr) in Normal mode only (makes it risky when trying to change lanes to pass other cars)

[yogi799]

Would your 'hesitation' issues be a result of time needed to down-shift the gear (per my initial observations)? Could that be considered normal under any circumstances?

[DuneMan]

Originally Posted by yogi799

Would your 'hesitation' issues be a result of time needed to down-shift the gear (per my initial observations)? Could that be considered normal under any circumstances?

- Yes.
- No way!

[sunnyUK]

I have a 520d - standard auto - it does appear to change up to the highest gear possible -driving at 30mph it sounds laboured ( ~ 1200rpm) - reluctance to change down enough gears and a little lag until the power comes in makes it harder to enter a roundabout and move off quickly. Once the car is in its max torque band then its great for charging about. Puting the car into DS mode does make it better as seems to keeps it in the power band Probably all designed to keep emissions and wheelspin low and mpg up!

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by yogi799

BMWrules7,

My friend... I did not call your comments 'garbage' but the following few posts which veered off topic talking about iPhones, starships and other unrelated things and also some arguments heating up prior to that.

I have also read the entire thread and have noticed that you've stated your opinion (fact?) multiple times, hence I've recommended not to repeat them again, and perhaps allow others to bring about another point of view, facts, experiences, etc. Hence I have shared mine for the first time in this thread. It is a free forum, of course, so if you feel like repeating the same point about safety, you have all the right to do so, of course! Just wonder if it makes any sense. That was all I was trying to say. I apologize if you felt offended. That was not my intention.

And I do not have an opinion on this... frankly, it'd be pointless if I did. Facts are what matters, not my opinon - so as I've said, I am going in for another test-drive tomorrow and will try to observe the behaviour NeedsDecaf has rightfully corrected me on. I may have noticed a bit of that as well, but since I was a bit confused on the issue, I will watch it during the test drive and share my experiences as soon as I'm back.

Who is to judge what opinions are worthy to be fact?
Since you have already stated you are confused (that's a good start) should you be determining the fact-worthiness of our opinions?
Basic mistake in reaching objective truth - irrecognition of one's own contradiction.

[Touring]

Tip-in, jerk, hesitation. Reminds me of my ex. She was not operating as designed in the end.

[grimlock]

Was waiting for that, Touring

[ghueser]

Whether or not this is considered technically a safety delay, I do agree that there is one on the F10, and was one on my prior E39...but not as pronounced. That being said, I would hope you all realize that there is at least one aftermarket BMW supplier out there that makes an electronic harness specifically made to delete this delay. I have not looked yet, but would imagine they are working on an F10 solution as well, if not already having it.

All the other so called issues are primarily related to the tweaks that BMW needs to make for better intregration of the 8 speed tranny... to the car. In other words, not to worry about making the great Gas mileage we get........although doubtful. For me, I reset the software when it gets jumpy on me.

[yogi799]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Who is to judge what opinions are worthy to be fact?
Since you have already stated you are confused (that's a good start) should you be determining the fact-worthiness of our opinions?
Basic mistake in reaching objective truth - irrecognition of one's own contradiction.

Wow, you're sooo brilliant... I have not judged anyone's opinion. I have only stated that one opinion has been repeated plenty of times already, learn how to read, moron, before wasting any more of my time.

[yogi799]

I have test driven a brand new 535i today (49km on the clock), and the tip-in was not that terrible. It was perhaps that split second you all have described (.5s?), but definitely not worth returning a car back to the dealership. :-) Perhaps anyones's is worse than that, I don't know. This one did not feel that bad at all from the stop.

[BMWrules7]

I am not sure I follow you here. My responses were triggered by attacks on my conclusions. I believe I used a mixture of facts and examples in my responses.

Next, you say that your opinion is not important as you feel that facts are the key issue.

Well, conclusions are what separate man from animals. Facts are dry, boring, indelible and incredibly important.

Yet, it is ones conclusions that are drawn on a set of facts that leads to an inventive step.

Here, we pretty much agree on the facts. There is a considerable delay when you step on the gas pedal before the engine responds in kind. That is a fact.

Now, the reason for this delay cannot be explained factually since none of us have access to the confidential crucial engineering specifications of BMW vehicles.

So, we are left with speculation. When one links the facts to what they know or learned professionally then we have an expert opinion.

All of us on this board are experts in one area or another. When we give our opinion based on what we know as fact and what our training tells us we are left with conclusions.

It is these conclusions that people share on this board that make it fun and enjoyable to participate.

Sometimes certain issues resonate with specific members, so we tend to post more responses within a thread. But, these responses do not in any way prevent others from participating. So I am not sure why you are so angry that I have responded to the challenges thrown at me.

Nevertheless, I would refrain from directly calling someone else a "moron." There are plenty of ways to express your contempt without resorting to kindergarten tactics.

Again, you already labeled this thread as "garbage," right? So why do you continue to post?

Originally Posted by yogi799

Wow, you're sooo brilliant... I have not judged anyone's opinion. I have only stated that one opinion has been repeated plenty of times already, learn how to read, moron, before wasting any more of my time.

[ghueser]

Originally Posted by yogi799

I have test driven a brand new 535i today (49km on the clock), and the tip-in was not that terrible. It was perhaps that split second you all have described (.5s?), but definitely not worth returning a car back to the dealership. :-) Perhaps anyones's is worse than that, I don't know. This one did not feel that bad at all from the stop.

They all feel better brand new, but after some accumulation of miles the Transmission and Engine Management software "learns" and usually results with most of the issues we are discussing in this thread.

[yogi799]

Originally Posted by ghueser

They all feel better brand new, but after some accumulation of miles the Transmission and Engine Management software "learns" and usually results with most of the issues we are discussing in this thread.

Oh, that's worrisome... Well, if that's the case and the delay grows, surely that's something that'll get addresses by the engineers.... I can't see how a second on longer would be acceptable (by anyone, even those who have designed that car). Thank God this is all software and is a matter of a correction if/when it's finally recognized as an issue by the company.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ghueser

They all feel better brand new, but after some accumulation of miles the Transmission and Engine Management software "learns" and usually results with most of the issues we are discussing in this thread.

This is where my questioning (due to my engineering background) comes in. Some don't get issues even after mileage. Others get the issues back again, even after software reloads, upgrades, or the dealer 'magic wand'. Others have BMW technicians driving the cars who can't replicate the issues in the same way.

For me, if it is simply the built in delays, be they designed in for safety, or just how the system must work to make electro-mechanical decisions, why does it deteriorate? Is the degeneration accelerated by the driver's style, as some users don't ever get issues?

Driving in sport mode changes the parameters as many note, does the sport programming also degrade over time? (Not read any comment on this changing). Surely this should do so as well, as this also is adaptive, from my understanding, be it to different parameters.

Why do the responses deteriorate, or flake in D mode? If you run is DS for a time does the response in D go back to the same bad ways immediately, or do you get a period of sharper responses, then again over time it becomes more hesitant, etc.?

Something is still not adding up for me, regarding this degeneration over time.

HighlandPete