[Spitfire007]

Is there a way to tell which suspension a car has when perusing cars.com or another site without plugging in each VIN on a decoder site?

Most tell me to get an F10 with adaptive suspension but I can't seem to find any.
Or they say to get a RWD M Sport for the "704" suspension...

Thanks.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Spitfire007

Is there a way to tell which suspension a car has when perusing cars.com or another site without plugging in each VIN on a decoder site?

Most tell me to get an F10 with adaptive suspension but I can't seem to find any.
Or they say to get a RWD M Sport for the "704" suspension...

Thanks.

Pretty sure you'll need to decode the VIN just to be sure. The listing may say M Sport and not have the M Sport 704 suspension.

[Spitfire007]

This is what I mean. Car looks like and Msport. Has M badges all over the place and look correct.... it why the eff is it so hard to figure this out?

[bake]

Originally Posted by Spitfire007

This is what I mean. Car looks like and Msport. Has M badges all over the place and look correct.... it why the eff is it so hard to figure this out?

Because at first BMW included the 704 suspension in the M Sport package and then midway through the F10 cycle pulled it from the M Sport package and made it a standalone option. So there is no way to visually tell if a car has it or not without checking the VIN.

[wcr3d]

If you don't know BMW that well even the m sport can be forged.
I guess one way to help is to eliminate the x drives.
Other than that, its the vin decoders.

[thakid22]

Originally Posted by Spitfire007

Is there a way to tell which suspension a car has when perusing cars.com or another site without plugging in each VIN on a decoder site?

Most tell me to get an F10 with adaptive suspension but I can't seem to find any.
Or they say to get a RWD M Sport for the "704" suspension...

Thanks.

I just bought my LCI F10 535i M-Sport...
Like you, I heard that VDC/Adaptive drive/Dynamic Drive are a must have.

Yes, that is the forum consensus. But VDC is not the holy grail of stock BMW suspension tuning that the forum members will have you believe. I've been meaning to come back here and really give a detailed review/comparison of all the LCI suspension configurations.

So many have tried to review these suspensions but fell short, seemingly not really knowing enough about suspensions, vehicle dynamics, and handling to really do the topic justice. In addition, there are plenty of rumors/lies/assumptions/misconceptions floating around too.


I will come back and chronicle the different suspensions for everyone.
But here's what you need to know...

LCI standard suspension has good resistance to brake dive/squat, has good body control on the road (there's not much bouncing going on) and deals with bumps admirably. The main downside is a bit of body roll during hard cornering. This body roll is not out of character for a luxury car. In my experience, base suspension is nice and taut, rarely feeling too loose.

LCI M-Sport 704 improves on the base suspension by curtailing body roll a bit better. Nose dive while braking is reduced, as is squat on acceleration. Small bumps in the road are a bit more noticeable, but the larger bumps feel about the same. 704 can also bounce vertically a smidge more (front/rear) over some medium to large road imperfections. On smoother roads it does indeed feel more composed than the base suspension.

And now our beloved VDC/ARS/Dynamic Drive Adaptive suspension...
Oh boy, where do I start??? First, let me say that ARS (the active sway bars) are not tuned as tightly as you may remember in the E60 5 Series. Here in the F10, ARS allows the body more than a good bit of initial body roll. In Comfort or Comfort + mode, you may never know that ARS is there. The body leans quite freely for a few degrees and then ARS catches it and diminishes any further lean. Very unBMW like. There are literally SUVs out there with better initial roll characteristics. Every time you turn the wheel, the body will lean to one side. At 5mph, 10, 20, 75, 90... The body roll is always there and ALWAYS inappropriate. Fortunately, SPort and Sport +, restrain the body roll much better. However, there is still a bit of initial body roll present when you turn the wheel. Again, this is present at all speeds, but most prevalent from 20+ mph in the sportier driving modes. On the E60, the best part of ARS was that the body ALWAYS seemed to stay just about level, no matter how little/much/hard/or fast you turned. This uncanny ability to stay level with the road is lost in the F10 with ARS. What's more is in the Comfort modes, the VDC\ARS suspensions lean MORE than the base suspension or the 704 (at least initially). The Sport and Sport+ modes seem to approximate the base and 704 suspensions as far as initial body roll is concerned. Know this about F10 ARS, it allows a moment (few degrees) of relatively sloppy body roll before the ARS starts preventing further roll. Moving on... There is another kink in the Adaptive Suspensions armor... Brake Dive! Omg, the brake dive is hideous! This applies to all of the suspension modes, but doubly to comfort, comfort +, and even sport and sport plus have to much brake dive. Again, there are SUVs out there that come to a more composed stop. This behavior lends a heavy, loose, imprecise feel to the last 3 or 4 inches of every stop, as the front suspension dips down, rises back up, and settles back down (much like you'd experience in an old 90's Lumina or Taurus). Yuck. That being said, the dive never feels particularly egregious at speed. Stab the brake pedal at speeds above 30mph, and while the nose dips quite a bit, you don't really sense it. However, once the vehicle comes to a stop, the front suspension continues to oscillate a few times.
The ARS/VDC suspension is not without its charms though. Driving around it is very obvious that the computer reads what happens at the front wheels and then manipulates the rear shocks in accordance to provide a smoother experience. In Sport mode (and Sport +) the rear body of the car seems to levitate above the ground with indifference to dips, holes, and crests that you would expect to make it bounce a bit vertically back there. Still, the front suspension remains to soft, so it bobs slightly over bad surfaces, a slap in the face considering how solid the rear is. Comfort + mode bobs front and rear. Comfort mode has a bit of bounce at the rear. On flat, good surfaces you may never notice some of these traits, but a bad road (at even 10mph) will have the car bouncing in the front and rear and swaying side to side too. For the most part, Sport and Sport + fix all of the excess body motion, but the comfort modes are truly disgraceful on bad roads (as pertains to body control). Comfort + is a gem though, when it comes to smoothing out impact harshness. Switching to Comfort + is like carpeting the road, very smooth. Comfort is smooth too. I use Sport mode mostly, because it is smooth too,but with better body control. Sport + is for fun/good roads.

With any F10 beware of medium to large sharp edged imperfections at speed. I've seen more than one magazine review reference the tendency for those types of bumps to send high frequency shudders/thwacks/sounds through the chassis... Boy were they right. Remember the "pothole explosions" from the E90? (Google it) They are back in the F10. With the VDC you don't really feel them, but the sound, omg. I mention this because it sounds worst to my ears on the VDC cars. I suspect the super soft VDC coil springs and contribute somehow. Again, every F10 I've driven does this to some degree. But larger wheels, runflats, summer tires, and VDC seem to exacerbate this phenomenon. Hopefully the G-series 5 is better in this regard.


VDC is NOT the sporting suspension option. A shame too. Look at the hardware BMW bestowed upon the adaptive suspension... ARS. Electronically controlled shocks. And individual control of Compression and Rebound at each shock! Geez, great hardware neutered by tuning for the masses. On the upside, if you are part of the masses who doesn't place a premium on body control, precision, and dynamics VDC will serve you just fine. The ride softness is superb and most people will love it endlessly, whilst never being annoyed by the shortcomings programmed into the VDC.

I specifically held out to drive a VDC equipped car. Based on the forum consensus, I didn't want one without it. After driving it, I can say this. When it is smooth, it is very smooth. But VDC does come at the expense of body control. Which is crazy because a car can have excellent body control and still ride smoothly. My ideal car rides flat whenever possible. Braking/turning/acceleration/road surface shouldn't make the body lean/bounce/dive/squat. That's body control. That's where the VDC falls short. It is obvious BMW tuned VDC to improve softness not body control. Base suspension would have been fine for me. 704 would have been better. 704 + ARS would be ideal. But that's not available here. Don't pass up on a car that you want because it doesn't have VDC. VDC is not that big of a deal. I bought the VDC car anyway because I'll swap the suspension later and it had every other option I wanted.

Now the real superstar of the F10 handling options is the Active Steering/4wheel steering.
I'll tell you why. The F10 has a relatively slow steering ration. You have to turn the steering wheel a lot for a given amount of turn of the wheels. This makes the car feel big, heavy, ponderous, and imprecise in the city. If you get rid of the run flats, the steering will get even less responsive. Active steering endows the F10 with crisp, responsive steering worthy of a BMW. Its well worth the money (if you care about such things), but you'll need Irish luck, a unicorn, and endless patience to locate an vehicle with it and your other options.


I hope this helps someone. And if you want to know more about the F10 suspensions let me know. I've tried them all (LCI).

[Spitfire007]

^^^^^THANK YOU!!!

[bimmer_335]

Originally Posted by thakid22

I specifically held out to drive a VDC equipped car. Based on the forum consensus, I didn't want one without it. After driving it, I can say this. When it is smooth, it is very smooth. But VDC does come at the expense of body control. Which is crazy because a car can have excellent body control and still ride smoothly. My ideal car rides flat whenever possible. Braking/turning/acceleration/road surface shouldn't make the body lean/bounce/dive/squat. That's body control. That's where the VDC falls short. It is obvious BMW tuned VDC to improve softness not body control. Base suspension would have been fine for me. 704 would have been better. 704 + ARS would be ideal. But that's not available here. Don't pass up on a car that you want because it doesn't have VDC. VDC is not that big of a deal. I bought the VDC car anyway because I'll swap the suspension later and it had every other option I wanted.

I had MSport with Dynamic dampers. It almost felt unnatural at times and response was not linear. Hence my new car comes with standard MSport which is linear and predictable.

If you're looking at F10... I'd suggest get the standard Msport which will offer you linear predictable handing. I got dynamic dampers as had to accommodate my growing family and wanted extra comfort at times, which it provided. However switching to sport/sport + I was always disappointed as it felt artificial with always present body roll... and F10s weight has a lot to do with that as well.

[thakid22]

Originally Posted by Spitfire007

^^^^^THANK YOU!!!

Anytime. I am just sharing what I would have liked to know when I started to research which suspension I would choose for my F10. I hope this helps you and many others in the future.

[thakid22]

Originally Posted by bimmer_335

I had MSport with Dynamic dampers. It almost felt unnatural at times and response was not linear. Hence my new car comes with standard MSport which is linear and predictable.

If you're looking at F10... I'd suggest get the standard Msport which will offer you linear predictable handing. I got dynamic dampers as had to accommodate my growing family and wanted extra comfort at times, which it provided. However switching to sport/sport + I was always disappointed as it felt artificial with always present body roll... and F10s weight has a lot to do with that as well.

Yes, I know the unnatural feel that you speak of. I've been tossing around a few ideas for a replacement suspension... I am leaning heavily toward 704 stock springs and Bilstein HD B6 shocks. Maybe even B4 Bilsteins with 704 springs.

Another FYI about VDC. BMW requires a laser alignment of the front VDC struts and their mounts anytime the struts are removed/replaced. This is separate from a wheel alignment.
Many, if not most, non BMW shops will not have the tool to do this laser alignment on the struts. To boot, BMW charges nearly $2200 in labor to replace the shocks and struts. This does not include the cost of the VDC struts themselves which cost another $2400.

Past BMW experience show the shocks lasting 75 to 100kmiles before being bad enough for replacement. I suspect these Adaptive shocks will have a similar life span. This means there is a very big repair bill down the line for anyone who plans to keep the car into high mileage and let Bmw replace the shocks when they are worn.

VDC simply isn't worth it (in my opinion). Its only on my car because the car happened to have everything else I wanted option-wise.

I need to drive a 6 Grand Coupe, hopefully BMW chose better tuning there.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by thakid22

So many have tried to review these suspensions but fell short, seemingly not really knowing enough about suspensions, vehicle dynamics, and handling to really do the topic justice. In addition, there are plenty of rumors/lies/assumptions/misconceptions floating around too.

I hope this helps someone. And if you want to know more about the F10 suspensions let me know. I've tried them all (LCI).

Your detailed summary of VDC is interesting, but does not match my experience of testing and living with an F11 with Adaptive Drive for over 5-years. From my perspective, you describe something completely different. I'd hate AD if mine behaved as you describe.

Enlighten me (and other posters on the subject) how other users opinions are falling short, you indicate others do not really know enough about suspensions.

I'm listening...

[bimmer_335]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Your detailed summary of VDC is interesting, but does not match my experience of testing and living with an F11 with Adaptive Drive for over 5-years. From my perspective, you describe something completely different. I'd hate AD if mine behaved as you describe.

Enlighten me (and other posters on the subject) how other users opinions are falling short, you indicate others do not really know enough about suspensions.

I'm listening...

Personal taste has a lot to do with how we see things and this is no different. I personally prefer standard passive MSport over active suspension for reasons stated previously but that's just me.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by bimmer_335

Personal taste has a lot to do with how we see things and this is no different. I personally prefer standard passive MSport over active suspension for reasons stated previously but that's just me.

I totally understand some users preferring a passive suspension system, predictability being one key factor why we may prefer it.

I recommend users try the different suspensions, before choosing which they find suits their needs.

How I see it, we must understand each has its place and is designed to satisfy different requirements. I find Adaptive Drive gives me the right set of compromises, the best working envelope, particularly for the roads I regularly drive. M-sport is too compromised as the surfaces deteriorate. Ride quality falls apart and the suspension becomes far too busy.

Adaptive starts out as a comfort biased system, firms up where necessary. I value that approach and do not find any downsides for my driving.

I appreciate not everyone wants the comfort bias in a BMW suspension. I don't find the basic passive system is good enough, too much float and lack of body control. AD sorts that out, adds refinement and has the modes to suit my driving moods.

[thakid22]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Your detailed summary of VDC is interesting, but does not match my experience of testing and living with an F11 with Adaptive Drive for over 5-years. From my perspective, you describe something completely different. I'd hate AD if mine behaved as you describe.

Enlighten me (and other posters on the subject) how other users opinions are falling short, you indicate others do not really know enough about suspensions.

I'm listening...

Don't let that statement yank your chain. I am very familiar with your posts about the 3, and more recently, the 5 series suspension setups. You do a quite fine job of articulating the workings, feel, and performance of these suspensions. In addition, I thoroughly enjoyed some of your past discussions regarding runflat tires. So do understand, with no doubt, you were not included when I mentioned those that did not seem to be able to adequately have a discussion about such.

Now that's out of the way... What part of my Adaptive Drive assessment differs from your experience? Be mindful, I have only driven LCI USA-spec F10 models.
If I recall correctly, you reside in another country. Maybe there are some tuning variations out there. Perhaps the F11 is different still... Have air suspension too? Does Adaptive Drive include the variable dampers on your car?

My intent is not to bash Adaptive Drive/VDC... It is an awesome system that produces admirable ride quality (most of the time). However, I stand by my statement that brake dive, body control, roll control (initial, not the total amount) seem less tightly restrained than both the standard and 704 suspensions. Again, I'm referring to LCI US spec models.

Mind you, all of this is relative. I'm just comparing one F10 suspension to another. None of these handle like a race car, none of the ride like crap either. But there is definitely nuance in the way each suspension behaves.

Personal preference will account for a lot in how you perceive each package. So too will, what you are used to/expect. But I suspect you know this.

But yes, tell me more about how your experience differs from mine... Now you've got me interested in what you guys get over there across the pond. A part # search suggests that the hardware is the same if I recall correctly. But with ARS and VDC, BMW could have easily spec'd different calibrations in those respective control modules.

My F10 has VDC and ARS. It is very nice, but a sporty setup it is not. It loves steady state cornering though... What suspension options do you have?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by thakid22

My F10 has VDC and ARS. It is very nice, but a sporty setup it is not. It loves steady state cornering though... What suspension options do you have?

My car is a 2011 535i M-sport wagon. Suspension; Adaptive Drive (2VA), comprises of VDC (223) + ARS (229). Sport auto gearbox (2TB). 18" summer run-flats, ContiSportContact 3; 17" winter run-flats, Dunlop Winter Sport 3D.

So I'm running what BMW say is the optimised setup for AD on 18" run-flats, for summer use, deliberately chosen to get what I see is the best from the chassis. I've obviously got the air self-levelling suspension, which does make a difference, compared to the 535i sedan with AD that I first tested.

I personally find the middle base setting, ('normal' in my model) is where the suspension works best for typical driving. As you know we are starting with a 'moderate' spring rate, so damping is best matched around the mid setting. That leaves ARS in the less sporty setting as well.

I don't have any issues with delay in ARS controlling roll, it is much better controlled than an F11 wagon with base suspension, also running 18" wheels. The base suspension does not compare for roll control. There is a chasm between the two different chassis, for roll control.

As you know of my 3-series history, my F11 is almost as agile though the bends on my local roads as the E91. I'm amazed such a heavy and soft bellied car can do so well. Sometimes I'm surprised at what speeds I'm running as the chassis is so composed and sure footed in Sport mode. No brake dive to speak about, VDC helps reduce dive, compared to the standard passive suspension.

I love the fact the chassis is so sorted and has a neutral balance at moderate speeds (I'm running a square wheel setup, so no understeer bias from wider rear wheels), and as you press on, ARS dials in a little understeer by design.

Air suspension helps as self-levelling air springs are variable rate, according to load. Composure is excellent, 'fidgeting' in an empty wagon is minimal, again far better than a sedan with steel springs at the rear.

My driving roads are all over the place, so AD is the best compromise. Passive M-Sport (704) is too much, I can't be apologising to passengers that the suspension can't cope with rough roads. Had enough of that in my E39 with M-Tech suspension. Great in hard driving, but not suited to lower speeds, particularly on poor road surfaces.

I don't see or feel the negatives you put forward in your comments, seems foreign to me, as if there could be something wrong.

[DLerner]

Can a pre-LCI ('11 535 RWD) be retrofitted with the 704 suspension?

[thakid22]

Originally Posted by DLerner

Can a pre-LCI ('11 535 RWD) be retrofitted with the 704 suspension?

It sure can. You need 704 springs, 704 shocks, and 704 bump stops front/rear.
If your car is equipped with VDC, you will also need a VDC cancellation kit (about $400) or to code out/delete VDC (though this may cause issues with future updates of the vehicle software ast the dealer).

[DLerner]

Originally Posted by thakid22

It sure can. You need 704 springs, 704 shocks, and 704 bump stops front/rear.
If your car is equipped with VDC, you will also need a VDC cancellation kit (about $400) or to code out/delete VDC (though this may cause issues with future updates of the vehicle software ast the dealer).

Cool. I've had this car for 6 years and would like a crisper suspension without moving too far from what BMW had intended.

[Spitfire007]

So how is the ride with a 2014 Msport?
Decent?
Jumpy?
My e90 is a little rough...

[thakid22]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

My car is a 2011 535i M-sport wagon. Suspension; Adaptive Drive (2VA), comprises of VDC (223) + ARS (229). Sport auto gearbox (2TB). 18" summer run-flats, ContiSportContact 3; 17" winter run-flats, Dunlop Winter Sport 3D.

So I'm running what BMW say is the optimised setup for AD on 18" run-flats, for summer use, deliberately chosen to get what I see is the best from the chassis. I've obviously got the air self-levelling suspension, which does make a difference, compared to the 535i sedan with AD that I first tested.

I personally find the middle base setting, ('normal' in my model) is where the suspension works best for typical driving. As you know we are starting with a 'moderate' spring rate, so damping is best matched around the mid setting. That leaves ARS in the less sporty setting as well.

I don't have any issues with delay in ARS controlling roll, it is much better controlled than an F11 wagon with base suspension, also running 18" wheels. The base suspension does not compare for roll control. There is a chasm between the two different chassis, for roll control.

As you know of my 3-series history, my F11 is almost as agile though the bends on my local roads as the E91. I'm amazed such a heavy and soft bellied car can do so well. Sometimes I'm surprised at what speeds I'm running as the chassis is so composed and sure footed in Sport mode. No brake dive to speak about, VDC helps reduce dive, compared to the standard passive suspension.

I love the fact the chassis is so sorted and has a neutral balance at moderate speeds (I'm running a square wheel setup, so no understeer bias from wider rear wheels), and as you press on, ARS dials in a little understeer by design.

Air suspension helps as self-levelling air springs are variable rate, according to load. Composure is excellent, 'fidgeting' in an empty wagon is minimal, again far better than a sedan with steel springs at the rear.

My driving roads are all over the place, so AD is the best compromise. Passive M-Sport (704) is too much, I can't be apologising to passengers that the suspension can't cope with rough roads. Had enough of that in my E39 with M-Tech suspension. Great in hard driving, but not suited to lower speeds, particularly on poor road surfaces.

I don't see or feel the negatives you put forward in your comments, seems foreign to me, as if there could be something wrong.

I doubt anything was wrong with the VDC models I drove. Multiple VDC equipped F10s all exhibited the same behavior. However, your statement about the lack of brake drive caused me to do a little further research. Because the LCI VDC F10s I drove all had it. A bit too much of it, if you ask me. Sure enough, I found several reviews/tests mentioning the F10s resistance to brake dive. Edmund's went so far as to comment that their F10 had noticeably great rebound damping during their brake tests.

Hmm. Wtf? I pulled some footage of various F1x vehicles performing 60 to 0 tests. Sure enough, all of them looked quite stable with minimal dive present. I went back to looking at part #s and found that the VDC models used the same springs/shocks throughout the entire F1x production run (except a few early 2011 models). So why the difference if brake dive behavior? I initially thought Euro modeled got different shocks/springs. No. Its the same. I surmise any difference is in the programming of the VDC modules control over the shocks. What's more is, I think the programming varied between LCI and Pre-LCI rather than country of sale. I have yet to find a LCI VDC in person, in tests, in reviews, or user accounts, that suggest they have the better dive characteristics of your pre-lci.

I did find a brake test of an Alpina B6 GC, that dived just like the LCI F10 VDC models do. That same review stated Alpina firmed the springs and reprogrammed the VDC for that model. I'm still looking for a test of an LCI out of curiosity. I may setup my Camera and record a brake test to see what mine actually looks like, in comparison to the videos of the Pre-lci models, because brake dive does not always "look" like it "feels".

Anyway, all of this is leading to something. BMW reportedly made changes to the LCI model suspension for 2014. If this included the VDC suspension, the changes are in that module because the hard parts are the same. This may present an opportunity to load earlier/later software for different dynamics. I fancy the idea of giving the programming your pre-Lci has a try because I believe you when you speak of its merits. I am new to F series coding, but I wouldn't be surprised to see configurable values for ARS, VDC, and EPS. Those modules are never mentioned on the coding forums, but certainly can be coded too. Coding Servotronic in my last E60 was almost life changing. It allowed me to set the steering effort from 0mph to the speed limiter any way I liked. Very nice indeed.