[clarence]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

BMW "bread & butter" N54 engine, which had the most application of all engines (1-series, 3-series, 5-series, 7-series and X6) was rated as one of the least reliable engine in the history of BMW.
GREAT performance engine nevertheless!

Bread & butter for BMW is not the N54, N54 is considered as upper range.
BMW's real bread & butter is the N47 diesel, then come the N52/3 & N57.

[Sedoy]

I partially agree with you, also those younger guys drive BMW or Audi harder than typically older MB owner. Still I think BMW can improve two things: reliability and weight. As far as reliability, people in US are really concern about it, because prices for premium cars (MB, BMW Audi etc) are cheaper than rest of the world (even Germany), so general public have access to premium cars and they don’t like to spend any money for dealer visits. Hello Lexus owners...

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

MB indeed has improved but there manufacturing is behind both Audi and BMW. A very good example is that BMW and Audi both offer 12year rust warranty while MB offer only 4years and additional 4 more years if you have your car serviced by MB dealer religiously. The 4 additional years is goodwill which means you only will get it if someone tells you about it. The reason is MB still don't double galvanize the body parts of there cars.
http://www.mercedes-benz.ca/content/.../warranty.html

This provides a small glimpse into MB inferior product. A lot of the times you won't here about it or show up on reliability reports is because many of the MB owners are older and very wealthy so the SA's position the problem as a wear and tear and the customer doesn't even think that the part shouldn't have failed and then just pay for it since for them it is just pennies. While most BMW and Audi owners are younger and while well off still don't have the same disposable income on average so when it comes to costly repairs will question it a little more.
Since 2000 just when MB released whole new generation of cars is when everything went downhill. It might be better currently but IMO the reason is because BMW and Audi is pushing harder with the performance front and also in the technology front so of course reliability will be questioned but that is better than MB just using older tech to become more reliable.

[clarence]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

Since 2000 just when MB released whole new generation of cars is when everything went downhill.

They actually started going downhill from the W210 (1995) onwards, & the descent was very steep. The W211 started a slow ascent, so if anything the mid-90's was much worse than the 00's.

[clarence]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Still I think BMW can improve two things: reliability and weight.

BMW was the 1st to reduce weight, then comes MB & Audi. The Japanese are way behind the curve in this respect.

[clarence]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

As far as reliability, people in US are really concern about it, because prices for premium cars (MB, BMW Audi etc) are cheaper than rest of the world (even Germany), so general public have access to premium cars and they don’t like to spend any money for dealer visits. Hello Lexus owners...

Also due to the cheap leasing deals. In other words, a lot of the buyers can afford to buy but cannot afford to run.

[jlgwu]

Originally Posted by clarence

They actually started going downhill from the W210 (1995) onwards, & the descent was very steep. The W211 started a slow ascent, so if anything the mid-90's was much worse than the 00's.

My own ownserhip experiences sure back this up. Had a 2001 E320 4matic back in 2002/03 and it's the worst car I have owned....no question. It was literally in the shop every month for some electical issue or another. However, what took the cake was a steering column failure. Lucky I was in a parking lot trying to park the car vs. on the freeway. The steering column spun freely (like a windmill).

MB towed the car and had it for a month. They never came out and told me what happened but I was able to question a SA and he said something about locking washers/nuts were missing on the steering column so things basically fell apart. I didn't know too much back then so gave me some free service credits, I just kept quiet. The failure could have had nasty results if I was on the freeway.

Then, just before the warranty was over, the main engine seals started leaking. Another month in the shop waiting for parts from Germany.

That did it, I got rid of it (I feel sorry for the next owner) and bought a BMW. Other than small things here and there, it's been great. Had an E39, also bought an E60 and finally traded the E39 for an F10.

In addition to all the trouble, my old MB drove like a boat. Love my BMW's which have been very good generally.

[Sedoy]

Originally Posted by clarence

BMW was the 1st to reduce weight, then comes MB & Audi. The Japanese are way behind the curve in this respect.

Really? I have different information:

7-series vs. A8
2008 750Li RWD - 4553
2008 Audi A8L Quattro - 4409

2012 750Li xDrive – 4861
2012 Audi A8L Quattro – 4453

5-series vs. A6
2008 BMW 535xi – 3946
2008 A6 3.0 TFSI Quattro – 4123

2012 A6 3.0 TFSI Quattro - 4175
2012 BMW 535i xDrive – 4233

Looks like Audi is improving and BMW really not. Also, japanese are not that bad either - 2011 Lexus LS460L AWD - 4696.

[grimlock]

The weight depends on the model, but the models sometimes cannot be directly compared, because sometimes they undergo growth spurts (e60 to f10), and sometimes they regress in weight (examples pls!). But then there is nothing to really compare if we can't compare 'equivalent' models..
Sometimes they come in underweight, and sometimes they are bloated (f10!).. but there is a reason, like they are significantly larger track, so perhaps the question is why is the 5 series growing in size, rather than why is it so heavy (=because it has grown in size)..

[Sedoy]

Well according to your logic we can’t compare anything. Of course generally every new generation will be slightly larger vs. previous: wheel base for 2009 Audi A6 was 111.9” vs. 114.6” for 2012 A6 but Audi still manages to keep the same weight.

Originally Posted by grimlock

The weight depends on the model, but the models sometimes cannot be directly compared, because sometimes they undergo growth spurts (e60 to f10), and sometimes they regress in weight (examples pls!). But then there is nothing to really compare if we can't compare 'equivalent' models..
Sometimes they come in underweight, and sometimes they are bloated (f10!).. but there is a reason, like they are significantly larger track, so perhaps the question is why is the 5 series growing in size, rather than why is it so heavy (=because it has grown in size)..

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by grimlock

The weight depends on the model, but the models sometimes cannot be directly compared, because sometimes they undergo growth spurts (e60 to f10), and sometimes they regress in weight (examples pls!). But then there is nothing to really compare if we can't compare 'equivalent' models..
Sometimes they come in underweight, and sometimes they are bloated (f10!).. but there is a reason, like they are significantly larger track, so perhaps the question is why is the 5 series growing in size, rather than why is it so heavy (=because it has grown in size)..

I'm wondering why the F10 535i is like 300lbs heavier than the E60 535i, but the F10 528 is only 100lbs or so heavier than the E60 528.

Example of a car regressing in weight. The 2005-9 Subaru Legacy did actually go down in weight vs the previous generation, while actually getting a tad roomier. It was a design focus to keep weight off the car. The new 2010+ one is bloat city though.

My old Nissan Maxima (Cefiro), a 4th generation car (95-99), was about 100 lbs ligther than the 3rd generation car it replaced. Had to do with using an aluminum engine block vs iron for the previous car, and they did also strip out some sound insulation. Overall it was a less refined car than the one it replace too, but it was lighter.

Cars getting lighter are generally the exception and not the rule though, because yes newer generation cars do tend to get a little bit bigger with each generation as the average size of people grows. What's happened in the U.S. is that now we have some of the micro / A-class cars coming here now. Cars like the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus, and Mazda3 have all gotten to be large enough "small" cars that they've now brought the sub-compact cars here. Saw my first "Mazda2" today, and didn't even know one was offered. The Focus used to be the smallest car in Ford's lineup in the U.S., but now the Fiesta is back.

The F30 3-series replacement might just be big enough that my wife and I could go for that instead in a few years rather than an F10, since the 5-series has gotten so big. The E90 was just a tad small for us to use as a daily driver / kid hauler. Oh, best example... the 3-series has gotten so big that now they've brought the 1-series to the U.S. as another sub-compact.

Why don't they just keep the 3-series "small", the 5-series mid-sized, and the 7-series large like they used to be, rather than making the 3-series so big that it's now a mid-sized, the 5-series a large car, and the 7-series a land yacht?

[clarence]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Really? I have different information:

7-series vs. A8
2008 750Li RWD - 4553
2008 Audi A8L Quattro - 4409

2012 750Li xDrive – 4861
2012 Audi A8L Quattro – 4453

5-series vs. A6
2008 BMW 535xi – 3946
2008 A6 3.0 TFSI Quattro – 4123

2012 A6 3.0 TFSI Quattro - 4175
2012 BMW 535i xDrive – 4233

Looks like Audi is improving and BMW really not. Also, japanese are not that bad either - 2011 Lexus LS460L AWD - 4696.

Can't really compare 7er & A8 cos A8 has ASF since 1994 & 7er has conventional steel body. Should compare 7er & S-class instead. The figures I got for LS460L is 2,065-2,095kgs & the 750Li at 2,055kgs.
BMW started the weight saving trend in 2003 w/ the E60, Audi then follows up with the 4F A6 in 2004.

[clarence]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

I'm wondering why the F10 535i is like 300lbs heavier than the E60 535i, but the F10 528 is only 100lbs or so heavier than the E60 528.

I think it's safe to assume the F10 body-in-white is heavier than the E60, hence the general gain in weight.
E60 was a real lightweight for it's class when launched, i.e. the 530i came in way under 1,600kgs when using EU measurement (incl 90% fuel, 68kg driver & 7kg luggage).

[clarence]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

wheel base for 2009 Audi A6 was 111.9” vs. 114.6” for 2012 A6 but Audi still manages to keep the same weight.

That's cos Audi (also VW) has gone on a major weight saving programme since 2008/2009, they made a S5 prototype that weighed abt 1,300kgs when using the lightest materials available vs reasonable costs. The new A6 used a design which is similar to the E60, but for some reason BMW has reverted back to a more conventional design for the F10.
BMW was the one who started the weight loss trend in the early 00's (they were the 1st to use a marketing name for a package of efficiency enhancing features) but they've dropped the ball recently.

[Sedoy]

Amen, that's what I was trying to say, BMW needs to improve weight and realibility.

Originally Posted by clarence

That's cos Audi (also VW) has gone on a major weight saving programme since 2008/2009, they made a S5 prototype that weighed abt 1,300kgs when using the lightest materials available vs reasonable costs. The new A6 used a design which is similar to the E60, but for some reason BMW has reverted back to a more conventional design for the F10.
BMW was the one who started the weight loss trend in the early 00's (they were the 1st to use a marketing name for a package of efficiency enhancing features) but they've dropped the ball recently.

[clarence]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

Cars getting lighter are generally the exception and not the rule though, because yes newer generation cars do tend to get a little bit bigger with each generation as the average size of people grows.

Not only that, manufacturers are adding content & putting in more safety features as time goes by - this means more weight. Weight is considered as saved when a new generation weights only xkgs more than previous generation, when the previous generation weighs (x+y)kgs if fitted with the same stuff.

[clarence]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Amen, that's what I was trying to say, BMW needs to improve weight and realibility.

They were the 1st to improve on the weight front. As for reliability, it's fine for the lower-end of the range in Europe. In fact for some reason most problems are suffered by US customers, esp the serious ones.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by clarence

They were the 1st to improve on the weight front. As for reliability, it's fine for the lower-end of the range in Europe. In fact for some reason most problems are suffered by US customers, esp the serious ones.

Back when I was seriously considering purchasing an E60, I took real careful notes about what people were complaining about on the forums and then compared it with the detailed data I found in Consumer Reports, and realized that 90% of the issues people were complaining about were related to optional features that you can get the car without. The "core" E60 without all of the gadgetry and doo-dads was and still probably is about as reliable as your typical Japanese family sedans (Camry, Accord, etc), which also aren't typically loaded to the max with techno gadgetry.

[clarence]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

realized that 90% of the issues people were complaining about were related to optional features that you can get the car without.

That's why they scored highly in reliability surveys in Europe as
standard spec there is relatively basic.