[bm323]

Originally Posted by akhter

... its clear that even if 8sp transmission has any kind of roll stabilization--its next to useless.

Can you pls clarify?

[alex_c]

Originally Posted by akhter

Another point. I have driven BMWs with active roll stabilization (last gen 7 series) and without (in Sport+ mode in F10) and its clear that even if 8sp transmission has any kind of roll stabilization--its next to useless.

I won't argue with that because it may very well be the case. I'm not saying that the basic setting is the bees knees, only that it exists. Granted, for some it may be not enough, that's why you also have the option to go full ZDH, but for others, a little more sportier setting may be more than enough.

I drove the plain vanilla vehicle, the 2TB setting and the full ZDH. For my type of driving, the 2TB provided much more fun than the no-settings version. In the US, I can't see myself in a situation where I (again, I) would need the full ZDH. I've driven many times on the Autobahn and the Autostrada (personally, like it more than the Bahn) at well over 130 MPH... and I would love to have ZDH in those cases.

But I guess in the end it is YOU who should test, feel and decide for yourself which options to get. Just know which options are available and test them. I've read my fair share of postings saying that even the full ZDH is as wobbly as a lexus on stilts, and others that the basic suspension is firm and sporty, so YMMV.

In any case, I think that the new F10 is a phenomenal vehicle. It is the first one I was actually willing to wait 2 months to get EXACTLY what I wanted, and can't count the minutes fast enough until I get mine delivered on 8/12 at the PDC.

Finally, I don't want to pontificate on what is right or wrong. I simply went by whats in writting on official BMW published documents and my own first-hand experience with the different setups. What I'm sure to do is do a real scientific test of both settings with an accelerometer and other stuff to get to the bottom of the feel-vs-real chassis setup.

Cheers!

[bm323]

Originally Posted by alex_c

But I guess in the end it is YOU who should test, feel and decide for yourself which options to get. Just know which options are available and test them. I've read my fair share of postings saying that even the full ZDH is as wobbly as a lexus on stilts, and others that the basic suspension is firm and sporty, so YMMV.
Cheers!

+1 if the buyer feels that the option tested is the right drive for him/her, that's the right option.

It's good to know about the different options so that one can ask for and test them. Otherwise, mistakes may well happen.

[akhter]

Originally Posted by bm323

Can you pls clarify?

I drove a last gen 7 with active roll stabilization. The car felt large and heavy but there very little lean/roll when turning.

I also drove an F1 750il with IAS and active roll stabilization and this car felt light and nimble and quick I am guessing because they are all much more improved and integrated.

I also drove a stripper (no IAS or adaptive drive) 523i with 8sp Sport in Sport+ mode. The car drove like a large version of my 335i with Active Steering and was exactly what I expected in terms of handling--reminded me of a e60 525i with active steering. There was a bit more roll than the 335i (well its bigger and heavier), and it didn't have that physics defying lean control as in the other two 7s I have driven.

[akhter]

Another small point:

My 528i ordersheet mentions every basic option like power steering, DBC, CBC, DSC, even electronic parking and cruise control, but there is zero mention of any active roll and I am certain if any such feature existed, the dealer would have put it down.

[alex_c]

Originally Posted by akhter

Another small point:

My 528i ordersheet mentions every basic option like power steering, DBC, CBC, DSC, even electronic parking and cruise control, but there is zero mention of any active roll and I am certain if any such feature existed, the dealer would have put it down.

Did you order 2TB or ZDH or none?

[akhter]

Originally Posted by alex_c

Did you order 2TB or ZDH or none?

8sp Sport only. No adaptive drive.

[raleedy]

Originally Posted by alex_c

Here's a question: If all 2TB adds is transmission software and paddle shifters, then WHY THE HECK does BMW spend the money to install a useless switch? You could simply move the lever to the left and enable S mode on the transmission, just like you do on the regular automatic transmission.

Also, the iDrive software is extremely complex, and as most of todays high-end vehicle electronic control software, it is DIRECTLY related and dependent on the existing HARDWARE. It would be absolutely stupid to have options showing up on iDrive that are not present in hardware. Today's software is hardware-aware, which means that if something is not present, the options are not shown. Have you tried to dial a phone number when your phone has not been paired with bluetooth or connected to the phone-adapter? No? Well, you can't because it recognizes there is no phone. Have you tried switching from FM to Satellite when you don't have Satellite radio? It is not shown at all. Does it mean that there are millions of software versions out there for every single configuration of vehicles? No. The software is hardware aware and enables and disables menus and options accordingly.

Do you think that something as CRITICAL for stability control calculations such as the type of chasis controls present would be left to chance??? If iDrive says that you can enable or disable Chasis Enhancements, is BECAUSE THEY ARE PRESENT. It would be RIDICULOUS that the software engineers would leave an option present that they could have disabled from even being shown with a single line of code. The limits on traction control and stability control are diferent when you have active dampers, or active stabilizers, etc., so the ECU knows EXACTLY what's present in the car. So, if the vehicle knows -according to you- that there is no chasis enhancements, WHY EVEN DISPLAY THE OPTION???

By the way, the EXCACT wording on the full vehicle brochure picked up 3 weeks ago in Munich says:

"Dynamic Driving Control allows the driver to select Normal or Sports mode at the push of a button. Comfort Mode in conjunction with Adaptive Drive or Dynamic Damping Control."

Can it be any more clear? It DOES NOT say: Fake dynamic driving control with only Normal and Sports mode. Only for decorative purposes... The only real dynamic driving control comes with Adaptive Drive or Dynamic Damping Control"

Sorry. Bold face and caps don't enhance your arguments. You may well be convinced that the suspension choices marketed as ZDH are present in cars not so equipped. I accept that you are. I'm not.

[gorban]

I support Alex_c. The marketing material from BMW clearly states that you get Driving Dynamic Control with 2TB and that it affects transmission, steering, accelerator response AND that it TIGHTENS the chassi.

How on earth can you tighten the chassi without playing with the suspension? It does not give you active roll stabilizers but the schock absorbers must be firmed up.

[akhter]

Again check the option list.

Dynamic Drive is not the same as Dynamic Drive Control (switch only)

If you see the chart--528i can have dynamic drive control & dynamic damping control but no adaptive drive. This is because adaptive drive clearly states that it is a combination of dynamic drive + dynamic damping control.

There is no such thing as chassis firming up without active suspension/stabilization. its a meaningless statement.

[HighlandPete]

From BMW's own mouth, (discussion between my dealer principal and BMW technical while I was sitting waiting for the answer), there is no active roll control without the full Dynamic Drive option.

I have a document that the guy emailed to the dealer, which clearly shows the DDC controller is fitted with different option packages, the controller is needed to support the 2TB option, the toggle functions being configured in the i-Drive menu. I was assured the 'chassis' part of the menu does not mean there is active roll control, (or any damping control) Adjustable suspension only comes when you specify 2VA, which also of course gives the comfort toggle, as VDC is part of the 2VA package.

If you have a model with only VDC fitted, you get DDC with the comfort toggle, but in sport there is still no active roll control, as it requires the expensive stabiliser hardware to be fitted. As I said earlier, about £1,200 of the 2VA (£2,220) package in the UK.

HighlandPete

[kjando]

I am now more convinced that the 2TB option only adds the paddle shifter such that you can shift manually. The only advantage is that you can shift manually with your hands still on the steering wheel rather than reaching for the shift lever on the console and moving it to the left to place it in the manual mode. For $500, it's unlikely that 2TB modifies the suspension. For that, you have to purchase the ZDH option, which provides the dynamic damping and the active roll stabilization.

Perhaps the ZSP option, which is required for the 2TB option, provides the toggle that allows you to select a normal or more aggressive shift point profile for the transmission. This is speculation on my part based since the description of the ZSP option does not mention this. In addition, the description of the ZSP option does not mention any change suspension parameters or shock absorber setting changes. All you get with the ZSP option, according to the description are: (1) sports leather steering wheel, (2) 19" alloy wheels and tires, (3) multi-contour seats, (4) shadowline exterior trim and (5) Increased top speed limiter. There is no mention of a suspension or shock absorber damping change with the ZSP option. It would seem to me that BMW would have mentioned this if they were included in the ZSP package.

We need someone in this forum to ask BMWNA to provide a detailed explanation of what is included in the 2TB and ZSP options to end all of the speculation including mine on this forum. No uncertainly with the ZDH option, however. It's clear that ZDH includes the adjustable shocks and the active roll stabilization.

[HighlandPete]

I wish all BMW markets used the same coding, here in the UK we have the Dynamic Package ZGF (US ZSP?) Is virtually the same as the description by kjando...

All you get with the ZSP option, according to the description are: (1) sports leather steering wheel, (2) 19" alloy wheels and tires, (3) multi-contour seats, (4) shadowline exterior trim and (5) Increased top speed limiter.

Ours in the UK is:
19" wheels, 332 style
Anthracite headlining
Exterior trim, high-gloss shadowline
Sport leather steering wheel, (no paddles)
Sport seats

Total cost £2,820 (sterling)

So nothing at all to do with suspension enhancement.

This Dynamic 'package' does not have any of the features which comes with 2TB, which is simply the sport autobox, including DDC, 'paddle' control with i-Drive configurations for throttle, steering and transmission response, switched in use, by the DDC toggle.

2TB is one of the best value options in the UK, as you get the 'sport' autobox software, paddles and DCC all for £110 (sterling)

The configurations with 2TB, do make it possible to have a much tighter feeling car when you toggle to sport setting. The steering feel is so much better (IMO) and makes the car a much tighter car on the road.

HighlandPete

[bimmernic]

Given the number of permutations available for the F10, one wishes that there was better coordination between the marketing and other departments.

I just took delivery of my 523 with the 255, 2TB and 704 (M-Sport Suspension) options. When my rims were being upgraded, I had a look at the wheel well and, in particular, the dampers. There were no leads/wires attached to the dampers, which would have been a pre-requisite for any dynamic damping function. Otherwise, the sensor information cannot be transmitted to the ECU.

Selecting SPORT mode does have an impact upon the shift speed (faster) and shift points (higher), accelerator response (snappier) and steering weight (heavier). I have not have sufficient time with the car to get a sense of whether there is less body roll in SPORT mode. Without Adaptive Drive, there would not be real time, ACTIVE, adjustments to the stiffness of the anti-roll bars. However, in theory, it may be possible that the 2TB may provide 2 PASSIVE anti-roll bar settings; Normal = standard stiffness and Sport = firmer.

Regardless, the 2TB option does appear to enhance the steering weight and feel. Even in Normal mode, the 2TB steering feels so much better than the standard steering, which felt artificial. The standard steering felt light and overboosted (like a game console) and very vague around the centre position.

[alex_c]

Originally Posted by bimmernic

Without Adaptive Drive, there would not be real time, ACTIVE, adjustments to the stiffness of the anti-roll bars. However, in theory, it may be possible that the 2TB may provide 2 PASSIVE anti-roll bar settings; Normal = standard stiffness and Sport = firmer.

That is exactly what I have been saying from the first post on this thread. I never said that you get adjustable dampers with 2TB, only with ZDH. Also, the Active Roll stabilization is only available with ZDH, period. Adaptive Drive (changes to dampers and anti-roll stabilization on-the-fly) is only available with ZDH. I hope that it is clear enough now.

With 2TB you get the changes is steering, throtle, transmission, and 2 STATIC changes in chassis via the stabilizers. Not active stabilizers, but passive, with only SOFT/FIRM type of adjustment. Not on-the-fly, not variable, nor Dynamic. Just soft or firmer.

By the way, in the US the 2TB is $500, so I don't know if there are any differences in what is included in 2TB in the US vs UK, specially considering that every other option and the vehicles themselves are considerably less expensive in the US.

[akhter]

Originally Posted by alex_c

That is exactly what I have been saying from the first post on this thread. I never said that you get adjustable dampers with 2TB, only with ZDH. Also, the Active Roll stabilization is only available with ZDH, period. Adaptive Drive (changes to dampers and anti-roll stabilization on-the-fly) is only available with ZDH. I hope that it is clear enough now.

Its far from clear.

How do you change the stiffness setting on passive rollbars on the fly with a button?

Its simply not possible.

[bm323]

Will be interesting to hear from anyone who has the toggle button but not adaptive drive or dynamic damping, switch into sport mode and check whether any difference with the iDrive ticking the chassis and then unticking it.

ps Lars doesn't think that there is any change in the suspension in sport mode
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=405658 but Robin Hood thinks there is in the same thread

[pharding]

On my 550 in Europe I changed the Adaptive Drive settings on the fly. It changed immediately. You can instantly feel the change although the changes are relatively subtle on the suspension between each increment. However there is an enormous difference between Comfort and Sport+

[HighlandPete]

Active, passive or what?

There are no active components in the suspension, without opting for the active stabilisers and/or adjustable dampers. Why do we conclude there is another 'active' suspension system in the standard car once DDC is added?

I thought we had it clear DDC allows for throttle, steering and transmission configurations. NOT suspension settings.

As it happens I was out in my nephew's Mini Cooper this afternoon and it has a sport button to tighten the steering and throttle response. My nephew assures me it is a different car to drive with the sport button pressed, the steering feel completely transforms the whole car's dynamics, he says it is like driving a different car. But as a passenger there is no difference in feel to how the car sits, you can just tell the steering is more precise and responsive.

This is what I found in the 535i with 2TB fitted, the 'sport' steering weighting makes for a different feel to the car, it is more precise in positioning the car and feels as if it has much more poise on the road, particularly on the twisty stuff.

My dealer principal tried the 'chassis' settings within i-Drive and he was not concinced that it did anything to the car's chassis, whereas the normal to sport toggle, does change the car quite dramatically.

BTW, I did question whether there are any other features in the car which could be changing with the settings, BMW confirmed there are no other electronic bits, bushes, etc., which are active.

Personally I can't see BMW having any hidden/secret technology, which they are giving away for peanuts, we would be hearing about it from the roof tops, as the best thing since sliced bread.

HighlandPete

[alex_c]

Pete, I have to agree that IF the active stabilizers are not present with 2TB, then there will be no suspension adjustment at all. What I don't know for a fact is if they are present or not. I thought they were based on the documentation, but you may in fact be right and not have the active stabilizers as part of the 2TB.

On the other hand, I think that your "passenger test" is a great idea, that way you will be able to really feel the changes in suspension -if any, or none- and not be fooled by the steering changes that only the driver can feel.

Again, I'm not trying to argue for nothing, I'm really trying to get to the bottom of this for good.

Finally, I read your other posts and quite possibly as you mention, what BMW may be referring to as "chassis" may only be steering and throtle response.

Cheers.

[bm323]

On a separate note, the 2TB toggle switch alone (without adaptive drive and variable damping) in sport mode I believe will increase fuel consumption.

Pharding I believe complained about high fuel consumption when both chassis and drivetrain on his with adaptive drive are ticked. With adaptive drive or variable damping, I'm guessing that the positive steering feel and sharpness can be present without higher revving/higher fuel consumption (because the iDrive can tick the chassis and untick the drivetrain).

Pls correct me if I'm mistaken

[alex_c]

I'm 4 days from finding out on my own!!! on Thursday I'm taking delivery of my 535 at the PDC...