[blackhawk_pilot2000]

Originally Posted by Jon D

I am one of those experiencing steering problems in that there is an on-centre vagueness, lack of feedback and the car has a tendency to wander off the straight ahead position if you're paying anything less than full attention, but I wouldn't describe it the way you did in an earlier post.
Since mentioning this to my local Aberdeen dealer, I've excellent service. They test drove the car and agreed with my assessment, also commenting that the dealer principal, a former racing driver, had noticed the same problem on his 535d. They then carried out a full KDS alignment and corrected a few very minor errors, after which I noticed a slight improvement, but the problem was still evident.
Next they loaned me a set of 19" wheels and, once again, I felt a slight difference in that the steering was a little sharper, but the on-centre vagueness remained unchanged.
They have now arranged for the BMW area tech rep to test drive the car, which is scheduled for tomorrow and I will be very interested to hear what he has to say.
Like a few others contributing to this thread, I think the root cause is the switch to EPS and whilst the steering might be improved by going to 20" rims with non-runflat tyres, it's a very expensive leap of faith, if all you end up with is a car that looks good, but one that handles no better.
My hope is that, as the steering is programmable, a software fix will eventually be developed, but I fear that a full solution may only be achieved by a return to hydraulic steering.
What I find very disappointing is that the forthcoming 6 series replacement also has EPS and 'Car and Driver' have already passed similar comments on the steering in their first drive review of the convertible. A great pity for me as I was looking to the coupé as my next car.

I'm with you guys on this. After about two weeks driving the car from last fix effort I find that it does not pull to either side, but rather it is sensitive to road camber and it follows it be it left or right. So I'm more at peace with, yet off center vagueness is what continues to be the problem: ie. It's so darn hard to find the straight and narrow position but once you find it it goesh straight, that is until road camber takes over. The latest fix made the steering harder which I don't mind and in return I feel this makes the wheel remain in it's last fixed position once you are done playing with it to find the straight position.
I define center vagueness as the feel of never being really sure to let go of the wheel entirely without having watch and I put left and right correction. I'm still test driving it as I'm looking for a good way to articulate this to the dealer without running the risk of being seen as a nick picker. So, my wife tells me that my hand should always be on the wheel anyways, but those of you that have this issue know exactly my frustration with that answer.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by blackhawk_pilot2000

I'm with you guys on this. After about two weeks driving the car from last fix effort I find that it does not pull to either side, but rather it is sensitive to road camber and it follows it be it left or right. So I'm more at peace with, yet off center vagueness is what continues to be the problem: ie. It's so darn hard to find the straight and narrow position but once you find it it goesh straight, that is until road camber takes over. The latest fix made the steering harder which I don't mind and in return I feel this makes the wheel remain in it's last fixed position once you are done playing with it to find the straight position.
I define center vagueness as the feel of never being really sure to let go of the wheel entirely without having watch and I put left and right correction. I'm still test driving it as I'm looking for a good way to articulate this to the dealer without running the risk of being seen as a nick picker. So, my wife tells me that my hand should always be on the wheel anyways, but those of you that have this issue know exactly my frustration with that answer.

Yes, it's difficult to find the exact words; the technician at my dealership defined it as constantly having to correct the previous input just to keep it in a straight line.
To me it's the lack of feedback/steering feel that results in the car tending to wander off line if you're not paying full visual attention to the road. Of course, that's exactly what you're supposed to do whilst driving, but you should also be able to make sat-nav inputs, without the car leaving the straight and narrow whilst you're doing so.
I'll let you know what the BMW tech rep has to say.

[northernmonkey]

be interested to see what outcome is Jon. my F11 running on 19" M-Sport wheels shod with the goodyear runflats feels...well...feels completely normal when driving at any speed on any road not noticed any wandering or need to correct it on m-ways.

seems like this issue is affecting cars built before a certain time? surely someone in BMW HQ knows if they've changed anything after a certain build date thats made later cars handle differently?

hope they get it sorted for you

[bimmerfrei]

My car (june build 528i) is in for repair and I got a 523i for a loaner. For some reason the 523i feels like a completely different car. While my 528i feels floaty and un-precise on the road the 523i feels like a rock. The steering in the 523i is so much more "focused" and reacts much faster. The loaner is pretty basic with a manual gear box and no dynamic drive. My own car has the Dynamic Damping Control. This made me think that maybe the extra electronics that come with the Damping Control has something to do with the bad steering.

Both cars have 18" wheels.

BTW, the loaner does drift...

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by bimmerfrei

My car (june build 528i) is in for repair and I got a 523i for a loaner. For some reason the 523i feels like a completely different car. While my 528i feels floaty and un-precise on the road the 523i feels like a rock. The steering in the 523i is so much more "focused" and reacts much faster. The loaner is pretty basic with a manual gear box and no dynamic drive. My own car has the Dynamic Damping Control. This made me think that maybe the extra electronics that come with the Damping Control has something to do with the bad steering.

Both cars have 18" wheels.

BTW, the loaner does drift...

Assuming no difference in build quality, could the difference be due to the steering program on Dynamic drive?
Have you ever had any complaints about steering on your car before this experience with the loaner? I did find the car hard to control at high speed going straight, but that was in normal steering setting, and have not had this feeling since, but now i drive all the time in 'sport' steering.
Maybe, like the feedback from Adaptive drive being "too soft" in comfort/normal, its the software settings on the variable steering program that is responsible for this big difference you experienced. Are you comparing with normal or sport steering setting on your own car?
The default program on the loaner may be better than the 'normal' with Dynamic drive -how about with 'sport'?

[scaredtodeath]

Jon.
You are getting the same treatment i got at the dealer except they loaned you the wheels and tires to try.They brought in the worthless tech who could do nothing because as you said the EPS is junk.We all need different cars so good luck to us.

[bimmerfrei]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Assuming no difference in build quality, could the difference be due to the steering program on Dynamic drive?
Have you ever had any complaints about steering on your car before this experience with the loaner?

I hate the steering in my own car. It's vague, lacks feeling and doesn't feel BMW-ish at all. More like a FWD Japanese minivan from the 80's. The car has been at the dealer three times and they haven't really figured out what to do (except from inflating tires, alignment, rotating struts). Now it's there again and this time I hope they can get it right.

Actually, I was waiting for them to contact me to schedule my next visit and then the car broke down so I had to call them.

I was driving along as usual and all of a sudden the engine started to cough and loose power. I stopped the car and opened the hood. The engine sounded like it was going to brake down any minute. Idrive said something like "Faulty drivetrain, drive carefully." No shit Sherlock - I could have told you that drivetrain was faulty the minute it left the factory.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by northernmonkey

be interested to see what outcome is Jon. my F11 running on 19" M-Sport wheels shod with the goodyear runflats feels...well...feels completely normal when driving at any speed on any road not noticed any wandering or need to correct it on m-ways.

seems like this issue is affecting cars built before a certain time? surely someone in BMW HQ knows if they've changed anything after a certain build date thats made later cars handle differently?

hope they get it sorted for you

I have the same "good handling" no wonder at all at any speeds.
The car is faultless.

[blackhawk_pilot2000]

Originally Posted by scaredtodeath

Jon.
You are getting the same treatment i got at the dealer except they loaned you the wheels and tires to try.They brought in the worthless tech who could do nothing because as you said the EPS is junk.We all need different cars so good luck to us.

1+
I'm to the point of entertaining selling it back to the dealer. That's how frustrating this is to me. The thing is that I'm in love with the looks of the car and hence if I go thru with it I may very well end up getting an xi because of the hydraulic steering. Have yet to hear from anyone with xi to have the same issues as those of us with EPS.
Has anyone consider this? If so what you'll think the potential loss in depreciation would be?

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by bimmerfrei

I hate the steering in my own car. It's vague, lacks feeling and doesn't feel BMW-ish at all. More like a FWD Japanese minivan from the 80's. The car has been at the dealer three times and they haven't really figured out what to do (except from inflating tires, alignment, rotating struts). Now it's there again and this time I hope they can get it right.

Actually, I was waiting for them to contact me to schedule my next visit and then the car broke down so I had to call them.

I was driving along as usual and all of a sudden the engine started to cough and loose power. I stopped the car and opened the hood. The engine sounded like it was going to brake down any minute. Idrive said something like "Faulty drivetrain, drive carefully." No shit Sherlock - I could have told you that drivetrain was faulty the minute it left the factory.

Ouch sorry your troubles are multiplying.. i guess the ESP program is the lesser of your worries now
They should make an Idrive function, "Send message to BMW HQ" -then you could send some expletives their way.. it might save them some angry customers who need to blow off some steam after their car has blown up in some steam

Originally Posted by johnbmw6

I have the same "good handling" no wonder at all at any speeds.
The car is faultless.

You got a good one, be glad

Originally Posted by blackhawk_pilot2000

1+
I'm to the point of entertaining selling it back to the dealer. That's how frustrating this is to me. The thing is that I'm in love with the looks of the car and hence if I go thru with it I may very well end up getting an xi because of the hydraulic steering. Have yet to hear from anyone with xi to have the same issues as those of us with EPS.
Has anyone consider this? If so what you'll think the potential loss in depreciation would be?

I tried the EPS program again on 'normal' it is indeed too limo-like.. in sport its acceptable, but still lacks back-to-center force.. I have a feeling its deliberate, they don't want to make the 5 as sporty as the 3 or other sporty models
btw do you really fly a blackhawk, how's the steering on that bird?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by northernmonkey

be interested to see what outcome is Jon. my F11 running on 19" M-Sport wheels shod with the goodyear runflats feels...well...feels completely normal when driving at any speed on any road not noticed any wandering or need to correct it on m-ways.

Same here, I'm following Jon's experience. I've met BMW's Area Technical Manager (for our region) a couple of times, I won't pass my opinion on his 'skills' at present. Let's see how he responds to Jon's problem.

Seems more than wheel size in this instance.

I'd like to know what a set of non RFTs does (if anything) for this issue. Certainly sorted the 3-series straight line steering issues, with my 330d.

HighlandPete

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by northernmonkey

be interested to see what outcome is Jon. my F11 running on 19" M-Sport wheels shod with the goodyear runflats feels...well...feels completely normal when driving at any speed on any road not noticed any wandering or need to correct it on m-ways.

seems like this issue is affecting cars built before a certain time? surely someone in BMW HQ knows if they've changed anything after a certain build date thats made later cars handle differently?

hope they get it sorted for you

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Same here, I'm following Jon's experience. I've met BMW's Area Technical Manager (for our region) a couple of times, I won't pass my opinion on his 'skills' at present. Let's see how he responds to Jon's problem.

Seems more than wheel size in this instance.

I'd like to know what a set of non RFTs does (if anything) for this issue. Certainly sorted the 3-series straight line steering issues, with my 330d.

HighlandPete

Pete, I don't want to mention names, but I'm sure it would have been the same BMW Area Technical Manager who I saw yesterday and, like you, I will not make any public comment.
Following a test drive he considered the car to be perfectly normal and I have to say that I was not surprised as my dealership service manager had earlier commented that I might end up having to accept the lack of feedback/steering feel as an inherent characteristic of the car. As I have previously mentioned, the senior technician who originally drove my car agreed with my assessment and mentioned the the dealer principal, a former racing driver, felt the same about his 535d. However, he also said the issue was only being commented on by 'keener and more technically minded drivers'. Had I not had an E92 before my F10, I might be perfectly happy with the car - who knows.
Under no circumstances would I describe the car as being dangerous to drive and provided that you're making positive inputs through a series of bends, the car handles remarkably well, especially when you consider its size; it's just the on-centre numbness that I dislike and didn't expect in a BMW. In all other respects it's a wonderful car - I recently did the drive from Inverness to the west coast of Skye, 120 miles of very twisty unlit roads on a very rainy night in a fraction over 2 hrs and felt relaxed and comfortable at all times; were it not for having passengers, I'm sure I could have shaved off 5 or 10 minutes and really enjoyed myself!
Unfortunately, I think the problem is due to EPS and therefore insoluble; however, I wasn't aware of the issue on two fairly lengthy test drives in a 530d, but the demonstrater did not have Adaptive Drive/Variable Damper Control, whereas my car does and I'm now wondering if this could be a contributing factor. Northerenmonkey, does your F11 have AD/VDC? Either way, I'm now very reluctant to spend quite a lot of money on a set of 19 or 20 inch wheels and tyres, which could result in nothing more than a cosmetic upgrade.
I am very keenly awaiting the new 6 series coupé, but I'm disappointed to note that it too will have EPS and 'Car and Driver' have already made negative comments on the steering following their first drive of the convertible. I mentioned this to the the BMW Area Manager yesterday and he said that the convertible will have a softer setting and that the coupé will be more E92 like. We'll see - at least I now know exactly what to look for! I certainly want to like the car and therein lies the danger of losing objectivity on a test drive if I lose focus - hopefully BMW will be listening to some of this feedback and the car might be fine in base M Sport configuration without all the fancy stuff.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by grimlock

btw do you really fly a blackhawk, how's the steering on that bird?

It's one thing to 'drive' a Blackhawk, but quite another to mend it . From someone who knows .

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by Jon D

Pete, I don't want to mention names, but I'm sure it would have been the same BMW Area Technical Manager who I saw yesterday and, like you, I will not make any public comment.
Following a test drive he considered the car to be perfectly normal and I have to say that I was not surprised as my dealership service manager had earlier commented that I might end up having to accept the lack of feedback/steering feel as an inherent characteristic of the car. As I have previously mentioned, the senior technician who originally drove my car agreed with my assessment and mentioned the the dealer principal, a former racing driver, felt the same about his 535d. However, he also said the issue was only being commented on by 'keener and more technically minded drivers'. Had I not had an E92 before my F10, I might be perfectly happy with the car - who knows.
Under no circumstances would I describe the car as being dangerous to drive and provided that you're making positive inputs through a series of bends, the car handles remarkably well, especially when you consider its size; it's just the on-centre numbness that I dislike and didn't expect in a BMW. In all other respects it's a wonderful car - I recently did the drive from Inverness to the west coast of Skye, 120 miles of very twisty unlit roads on a very rainy night in a fraction over 2 hrs and felt relaxed and comfortable at all times; were it not for having passengers, I'm sure I could have shaved off 5 or 10 minutes and really enjoyed myself!
Unfortunately, I think the problem is due to EPS and therefore insoluble; however, I wasn't aware of the issue on two fairly lengthy test drives in a 530d, but the demonstrater did not have Adaptive Drive/Variable Damper Control, whereas my car does and I'm now wondering if this could be a contributing factor. Northerenmonkey, does your F11 have AD/VDC? Either way, I'm now very reluctant to spend quite a lot of money on a set of 19 or 20 inch wheels and tyres, which could result in nothing more than a cosmetic upgrade.
I am very keenly awaiting the new 6 series coupé, but I'm disappointed to note that it too will have EPS and 'Car and Driver' have already made negative comments on the steering following their first drive of the convertible. I mentioned this to the the BMW Area Manager yesterday and he said that the convertible will have a softer setting and that the coupé will be more E92 like. We'll see - at least I now know exactly what to look for! I certainly want to like the car and therein lies the danger of losing objectivity on a test drive if I lose focus - hopefully BMW will be listening to some of this feedback and the car might be fine in base M Sport configuration without all the fancy stuff.

Well Jon my 550i has good steering and this report on the new 6 says the same!! read this;
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carrevi...nvertible.html
Could the cars with the 550i engine have a little more weight which could be a factor?.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by johnbmw6

Well Jon my 550i has good steering and this report on the new 6 says the same!! read this;
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carrevi...nvertible.html
Could the cars with the 550i engine have a little more weight which could be a factor?.

Interesting, but while Auto Express appear to like it, this is what Car and driver have to say about the 650i's steering:
"Unfortunately, the electric steering is a reason to stay away from the sportier modes. As on the new 5-series, the steering is slightly numb on center and feels artificially heavy, but the synthetic feel is less noticeable in Comfort and Normal. You can tinker with the system settings individually, but no combination will charm you."

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by Jon D

Interesting, but while Auto Express appear to like it, this is what Car and driver have to say about the 650i's steering:
"Unfortunately, the electric steering is a reason to stay away from the sportier modes. As on the new 5-series, the steering is slightly numb on center and feels artificially heavy, but the synthetic feel is less noticeable in Comfort and Normal. You can tinker with the system settings individually, but no combination will charm you."

Strange how two reports differ so!.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Jon D

It's one thing to 'drive' a Blackhawk, but quite another to mend it . From someone who knows .

Jon D, these cars should be a piece of cake for you then
from someone who didn't know where the unlock door button was until month 4

my take, changing rims+tires is only going to help if you're getting some specific feedback that is horrendous, most likely with the tires if they aren't suited for the driving surfaces in your area..

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by grimlock

..my take, changing rims+tires is only going to help if you're getting some specific feedback that is horrendous, most likely with the tires if they aren't suited for the driving surfaces in your area..

This is why I'm very interested in the outcome, to see if there is some curruption to the steering, from the tyres. I know from my own experience, (discussed before) that my 3-series steering was corrupted by the RFTs.

Due to varrying road cambers and imperfections, we contend with, the tyres can't flex enough. Energy gets transfered back through the wheel/tyres to the steering. My steering was transformed by changing tyres to non runflats.

At the moment I'm on my winter wheel set, same rim and tyre sizes as the summers, but even with such a small change of tyre specification, there is a slight difference. I'd say there is even less energy transfer, back to the steering wheel. There is no deflection off course on any road surface, drives perfectly straight and true, even better than the summer tyres. Something that couldn't be said for the RFTs, each drive could be a steering experience.

I'll be watching this space.

HighlandPete

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

This is why I'm very interested in the outcome, to see if there is some curruption to the steering, from the tyres. I know from my own experience, (discussed before) that my 3-series steering was corrupted by the RFTs.

Due to varrying road cambers and imperfections, we contend with, the tyres can't flex enough. Energy gets transfered back through the wheel/tyres to the steering. My steering was transformed by changing tyres to non runflats.

As you're undoubtedly aware, this has been a highly contentious issue over on the UK 3 series forum and, whilst I never tried non-funflats on my '08 E92 330d MS, I was more than delighted at the way it handled on the standard 19" Bridgestones. I had never driven a car with such precise and predictable steering; I found it to be perfectly weighted and felt truly in touch with the road at all times. The car felt equally competent and confidence inspiring, whether throwing it through twisty 'B' roads or comfortably cruising on the motorway.
Now here's why I don't get the sidewall flex issue: the E92 with front/rear aspect ratios of 35/30 had substantially narrower sidewalls than my F10 with its 45/40 (both RFT). In other words the F10 tyres have more flex than the E92, which to my way of thinking should give a less direct feel.
Whatever the cause, lack of feel is the effect and I'm becoming increasingly disappointed, not to mention confused.
Like you, I'm very keen to hear what 'uktivo' has to say following the switch to non-runflats.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Which tyres are you guys having trouble with?. I have the Michelin Primacy run flats on the 550i MS and they are very good very low noise and grippy.

[Jon D]

As some followers of this thread will know, I am one of several owners who are less than satisfied with the F10's steering, specifically the numb on-centre feel and lack of road feedback which result in a tendency for the car to wander in the straight-ahead position.
To recap, my Aberdeen dealer's senior technician drove the car and agreed with my findings.
They carried out a full KDS alignment check and corrected a few very minor discrepancies, after which I noticed a slight improvement, but the problem was far from cured.
They then loaned me a set of 19" wheels and again I felt only a marginal difference - certainly not enough to convince me to spend a significant amount of money in replacing my 18" rims and tyres.
The next step was to have the car driven by the regional BMW technical manager, who predictably declared the car to be perfectly normal for an F10. However, he suggested that I might feel a difference if the tyres were filled with nitrogen and stated that this would be done at BMW's expense.
Although initially sceptical, I thought it best to keep an open mind so I had no hesitation in accepting their offer. Additionally, had I declined my dealer could justifiably assume that I was no longer concerned and considered the issue to be closed.
That was 10 days and about 600 miles ago and I’ve spent every mile trying my hardest not to believe that there’s an improvement. To my great surprise there is a noticeable enhancement to the road feel through the steering wheel. OK, it's nowhere near as responsive as my E92 and I can't expect the same handling in such a significantly larger car. However, I now feel far more attuned to where the front wheels are pointing and I'm more aware of any deviation whilst operating the sat-nav etc., which happily results in the car being less prone to wandering in the straight-ahead position.
So there you go - Kwik-Fit charge £1.25 per wheel, not very much for a noticeable improvement.
If anyone else fancies giving it a go, I'd be very interested in your opinions.

[O.S.]

My hydraulic steering 535 xi has no issues and feels solid and planted... Center is dead on. Superb bmw steering. Thats another reason why xdrive versions are supperior. No electric steering bs.

Originally Posted by bm323

My F10 on 18s is with adaptive drive and I don't understand all this vague/numb on center. For over a month, I had my E46 and E90 to compare, and I still have my E90. I have been saying this several times now, I understand if a person says the F10 is not as connected to the road as the E90, but I have no problem with any vagueness/numbness on center and my steering is precise. Likewise, I have no pull to the right/left. I had jerkiness in the beginning when cold start at very slow speeds but not now.

My suggestion is to test drive 2/3 equivalent F10s now, and verify whether the problem is present in the test cars.