[r3amir]

Originally Posted by bm323

On a separate note, the 2TB toggle switch alone (without adaptive drive and variable damping) in sport mode I believe will increase fuel consumption.

Pharding I believe complained about high fuel consumption when both chassis and drivetrain on his with adaptive drive are ticked. With adaptive drive or variable damping, I'm guessing that the positive steering feel and sharpness can be present without higher revving/higher fuel consumption (because the iDrive can tick the chassis and untick the drivetrain).

Pls correct me if I'm mistaken

With 2TB, there is option of changing transmission, or/and chassis. So if only chassis is changed, there is a tighter steering with same fuel consumption. It is great

[bm323]

Originally Posted by r3amir

With 2TB, there is option of changing transmission, or/and chassis. So if only chassis is changed, there is a tighter steering with same fuel consumption. It is great

hi, just to confirm that you are referring to an f10 with the toggle button and 2VA adaptive drive/223 dynamic damping?

[HighlandPete]

It's a nice thought to hope the active stabiliser system is already fitted and waiting for advanced software at the full option cost, but the actual hardware is a complex bit of engineeering, so that's where the option cost is.

On the consumption issue, the sport transmission setting does lock out 8th gear, so obvious it will be using more fuel, both in holding gears to higher rpm and the lack of the most relaxed cruising.

When I had my test drive I didn't think to change the configuration in i-Drive to see the differences with the autobox. So also interested to know the differences to the 'box behaviour, in sport, with different transmission configurations.

HighlandPete

[r3amir]

Originally Posted by bm323

hi, just to confirm that you are referring to an f10 with the toggle button and 2VA adaptive drive/223 dynamic damping?

I am referring to sports auto transmission on F10 but no adaptive drive or dynamic damping. I have 535i with sports package and sports auto transmission, but no dynamic handling package.

[bimmernic]

Originally Posted by r3amir

With 2TB, there is option of changing transmission, or/and chassis. So if only chassis is changed, there is a tighter steering with same fuel consumption. It is great

Interesting indeed. Have not had a chance to experiment with the various settings yet. Was thinking that if I could (a) have the tighter steering and (b) better accelerator response with (c) normal transmission, that would be great. Will try that tomorrow. Thanks for the tip.

[mkaresh]

I had not realized that the 2TB option included the ability to modify the steering. Good to know. My information on the suspension agrees with most here, though: to alter the suspension you need the DHP.

I drove a 550i with DHP last week. I could notice differences in handling among the settings, though not huge differences, but hardly any difference in ride quality. I specifically sought out an awful stretch of pavement, and the car seemed to handle the worst bits the same, and fairly well, in every setting.

[dkerr]

After reading 3 pages of posts I think I'm still confused.

I intended to buy a 2011 535i xDrive. I am specifying Dynamic Handling (ZDH) and sports package (ZSP). Now I am trying to decide whether to also specify the sport automatic transmission (2TB) for another $500.

If the only difference between standard Steptronic and Sport is the steering column paddles then I am not sure I will bother, as 99% of the time I will leave it in automatic mode. But if the Sport transmission has different programming than the standard then maybe I should. Even the standard transmission has a sport mode (nudge the shifter to the left)?

All the discussion in this thread seams to be comparing ZDH or 2TB, but as I have decided on ZDH, my question is what more will I get by adding 2TB as well.

Anyone know?

DAK

[mkaresh]

Unless you might use the paddles, I wouldn't spend the $500. This is quite expensive for paddles, and you'd be paying twice for some of the functionality.

You will still be able to engage a sport transmission mode by shifting the lever to the left, which in my experience yields shift points you'll only want when driving the car aggressively. But you'll also be able to manually shift the transmission using the lever.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by dkerr

If the only difference between standard Steptronic and Sport is the steering column paddles then I am not sure I will bother, as 99% of the time I will leave it in automatic mode. But if the Sport transmission has different programming than the standard then maybe I should. Even the standard transmission has a sport mode (nudge the shifter to the left)?

All the discussion in this thread seams to be comparing ZDH or 2TB, but as I have decided on ZDH, my question is what more will I get by adding 2TB as well.

Anyone know?

DAK

The 2TB is one of the best valued option. With the 2TB toggle switch (sport etc), the steering is stiffened is and more precise.

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by bm323

The 2TB is one of the best valued option. With the 2TB toggle switch (sport etc), the steering is stiffened is and more precise.

The switch is included in ZDH, which he said he is ordering. He'll get this switch even without 2TB.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

The switch is included in ZDH, which he said he is ordering. He'll get this switch even without 2TB.

With the ZDH, the switch can control the transmission and drivetrain. With 2TB, there is the added firmer and sharper steering. This is my understanding

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

Unless you might use the paddles, I wouldn't spend the $500. This is quite expensive for paddles, and you'd be paying twice for some of the functionality.

You will still be able to engage a sport transmission mode by shifting the lever to the left, which in my experience yields shift points you'll only want when driving the car aggressively. But you'll also be able to manually shift the transmission using the lever.

As I understand it, the sport box option is not just about the different stick and paddle shifters. BMW have also modified the software for faster changes, (not the same as using the standard auto in sport with different shift points), but a more eager box all round in sport mode.

I can't find any specific technical reference to this for the F10, but certainly the case with the box in the E60/1.

The brochure does say for 2TB, "shorter shift times" which is what was also stated in the brochure for the E60. It is really the difference between "different shift points" in typical auto sport modes and "faster shift times" in the sport box, which seems to set the boxes apart.

HighlandPete

[bimmernic]

With the 2TB set to Normal mode, the steering weight and feel appears to be better than the standard steering as well, in that there is more "meat" to the steering, even if light by E60 standards, and it feels less overboosted and artificial.

Also, the D/S mode (moving the gearshift lever to left) in Normal mode is rather different from the Sport mode.

# 2TB in Sport mode

With the 2TB in Sport mode (a) the accelerator pedal is heavier, with more effort required to depress the pedal; (b) the accelerator is more sensitive, in that less pedal travel is required to achieve a certain engine speed; and (c) the throttle lag experienced in Normal mode is reduced and the engine speed climbs faster.

The steering also becomes heavier and more direct. Plus, the transmission shift speed and points are faster and higher, respectively. Whether both are the same with the standard transmission in D/S mode as well, I have no idea.

# Standard transmission in D/S mode (on the basis that this is the equivalent of the 2TB in Normal + D/S mode)

There is no change in the weight, feel or response of the steering and accelerator pedal, even if the car feels snappier due to transmission shift points being higher as the lower gears are held for a longer time before changing up. So, even if the transmission is more sporty, the steering and pedal feel is, for lack of a better description, normal with less of an "as one" feel with the 2TB in Sport mode.

# Steering paddles

I used to take the view that the steering paddles, while nice to have and aesthetically pleasing, would be somewhat redundant.

However, I have had the occasion to use them for overtaking manoeuvres recently and now appreciate them more. Since the transmission tends to change up to, and maintain, the higher gears to reduce the engine speed for better fuel economy, a click or two on the left/(-) paddle helps to get the engine into the power band faster than to floor the accelerator to trigger the kick down response. While it is possible to achieve manual override by moving the gearshift lever to the left, (a) the paddles are at your finger tips, allowing both hands to be kept on the steering wheel instead of taking one hand off the steering wheel to move the gearshift lever; and (b) there are less steps involved with the paddles; with one step/click for a shift instead of two when moving (i) the gearshift to the left; and (ii) then up/down for a shift.

[akhter]

Originally Posted by bimmernic

# Steering paddles

I used to take the view that the steering paddles, while nice to have and aesthetically pleasing, would be somewhat redundant.

However, I have had the occasion to use them for overtaking manoeuvres recently and now appreciate them more. Since the transmission tends to change up to, and maintain, the higher gears to reduce the engine speed for better fuel economy, a click or two on the left/(-) paddle helps to get the engine into the power band faster than to floor the accelerator to trigger the kick down response. While it is possible to achieve manual override by moving the gearshift lever to the left, (a) the paddles are at your finger tips, allowing both hands to be kept on the steering wheel instead of taking one hand off the steering wheel to move the gearshift lever; and (b) there are less steps involved with the paddles; with one step/click for a shift instead of two when moving (i) the gearshift to the left; and (ii) then up/down for a shift.

My F10 isn't here yet, but my last car was a 335i AT w/paddles and I loved the paddles.

I would say 70% of the time I drove in manual mode with paddles. The reason is, with only a couple of clicks (like a PC mouse double-click, in less than a second) I could perfectly increase the acceleration to the precise rate I wanted. Had gone to kick-down instead, the revs would reach much higher (& louder) and I would get much higher acceleration than I often wanted. For me a double-click was for regular passing around town and kick-down was more for freeway passing.

For example, when doing about doing 40mph, the car would be in M5 while cruising and 2 clicks and I am on M3@3000rpm for passing. If I am in auto and I went the kickdown route instead, I'd drop from M5 to M2 and doing closer to 4500rpm. While the latter is more exciting, in a 335i, frequent kickdown around town is a receipe for tickets or accidents. Before people jump in and say all this is much easier accomplished in an MT, I agree, but my wife needed AT and I quite enjoyed my AT as well once I got fully used to manual mode w/paddles.

The feeling/effect of down-shifting is much more like how MT drivers drive (I can drive stick), than kickdown which on the 335i is quite brutal (in a good way).

[alex_c]

HighlandPete and all: I stand corrected!

2TB DOES NOT have any suspension adjustments by itself at all. The way BMW uses the term "CHASIS" refers to SUSPENSION, STABILIZERS AND STEERING COLUMN. With 2TB by itself, when you select to change the CHASIS, only the Steering Column feel changes to a heavier setup. If you also have Adaptive Drive, then it enables the firmer program for the stabilizers and dampers.

What made this whole thing more complicated unnecessarily, is the fact that BMW puts a picture of all the elements of the CHASIS on the display, even when it is only ONE element the one that is going to be adjusted.

I will be making the necessary adjustments to the first post of this thread to correctly reflect this and people can avoid having to read 3 pages for the final conclusion.

What is also a fact, is that the Sports Auto Transmission included in 2TB, is much faster at shifting, and has a more agressive setup vs the standard auto transmission.

Between the steering, the paddles and the fantastic transmission for $500, it is well worth its price.

[bm323]

Thanks alex_c, for your much helpful and concise information. Good reference point for potential buyers

[bimmernic]

Originally Posted by akhter

My F10 isn't here yet, but my last car was a 335i AT w/paddles and I loved the paddles.

I would say 70% of the time I drove in manual mode with paddles. The reason is, with only a couple of clicks (like a PC mouse double-click, in less than a second) I could perfectly increase the acceleration to the precise rate I wanted. Had gone to kick-down instead, the revs would reach much higher (& louder) and I would get much higher acceleration than I often wanted. For me a double-click was for regular passing around town and kick-down was more for freeway passing.

For example, when doing about doing 40mph, the car would be in M5 while cruising and 2 clicks and I am on M3@3000rpm for passing. If I am in auto and I went the kickdown route instead, I'd drop from M5 to M2 and doing closer to 4500rpm. While the latter is more exciting, in a 335i, frequent kickdown around town is a receipe for tickets or accidents. Before people jump in and say all this is much easier accomplished in an MT, I agree, but my wife needed AT and I quite enjoyed my AT as well once I got fully used to manual mode w/paddles.

The feeling/effect of down-shifting is much more like how MT drivers drive (I can drive stick), than kickdown which on the 335i is quite brutal (in a good way).

Now that you have mentioned it, this is precisely why I prefer the paddles. The kickdown can be quite unpredictable in its response (lag) and intensity (too low a gear/too high an engine speed) at times. With the paddles, if you are still a gear too high after the initial click, another click would do the trick.

[bm323]

hi alex_c, may need to take into account the following to make post #1 complete

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

My understanding... First point if you have DDC (even with a manual transmission) then you can adjust steering and throttle without requiring 2TB. VDC being an option which gives this feature, plus the adjustment and comfort setting on the suspension.

Second point, DDC does allow throttle and steering, whatever option with it. See BMW description of DDC.

Third point, no suspension adjustment without at least VDC. So 2TB alone, gives us DDC, but only allows steering, throttle and transmission configurations.





If we read the definition of DDC carefully, (from both pages of the brochure) it supports all the other descriptions by BMW.

HighlandPete

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthre...=415160&page=2 as taken from http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthre...=420018&page=2

[TuRbO-FaNaTiC]

oh man, i screwed up i didnt get the sport transmission on my 535i sports pck, i ordered about 3 weeks ago car will b here in 4-5 weeks says my dealer , does anyone know if they could add that last i have heard a day ago the body had just been painted

[akhter]

Originally Posted by TuRbO-FaNaTiC

oh man, i screwed up i didnt get the sport transmission on my 535i sports pck, i ordered about 3 weeks ago car will b here in 4-5 weeks says my dealer , does anyone know if they could add that last i have heard a day ago the body had just been painted

i don't think u can change anything once car has entered production. still worth trying...

[blackberrycubed]

so are we absolutely sure the 2TB option plus sport package does not tighten the struts on the 535i when the spot+ option is chosen? (this is when dynamic handling is not installed)

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by blackberrycubed

so are we absolutely sure the 2TB option plus sport package does not tighten the struts on the 535i when the spot+ option is chosen? (this is when dynamic handling is not installed)

Being picky, sport + is not changing anything more than sport. Sport+ (in addition to current configured sport settings) is only knocking out part of the DSC programme.

For the car to have any variation in the strut damping settings you must buy (at minumum) the Adjustable Damping package and have the additional 'comfort' setting on the toggle switch.

No technical evidence whatsoever to believe that options like 2TB alter the damping. The car will feel different with setting to sport, but it isn't the damping that is changed. Confirmed by BMW UK.


Peter