|
|
|
2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 Tip-in, jerk, hesitation, operating as designed? |
|
Post Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
05-09-2011, 03:09 AM | #23 | |
Private First Class
10
Rep 131
Posts |
Quote:
Oh, also this seems to just be on the 535i, definitely not the 550, and I'm not sure about the other models.
__________________
Dinan Stage 3 | High Capacity Oil Cooler | High Performance Intercooler | Carbon Fiber Cold Air Intake | Carbon Fiber Strut Tower Brace | Rear Sway Bar | KW V1's | 18" Forgestar F14's
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 03:32 AM | #24 | |
Major
32
Rep 1,134
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
2014 550i M-sport
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 04:21 AM | #25 |
Lieutenant General
6659
Rep 15,858
Posts |
Are the issues really the car and software, or are the driver’s also making things worse?
I know some folks don’t drive steady enough, confuse the electronics. I’ve observed this with drivers in some of the latest autos. It is as if the box has gone crazy, fighting for gears, in the wrong gears and generally driving very ‘notchy’. But get at the helm myself and the gearbox is fine. Does what I want without hesitation, or being in the wrong gear. This answers at least part of some issues. Now after saying that, and also the comments in this thread that it could be partly involving the torque converter, I give the example of a VW DSG setup, so a dual clutch configuration and no ‘slush’ coupling. We run two VW DSG setups in the family. A VW Caravelle 180PS TDi with the 7-speed DSG box and a VW Kombi/Transporter, again with the 180PS TDi and 7-speed DSG. Now these two setups are completely different in characteristic and response. Even when running similar loads, so it is not a weight/performance issue. The Caravelle will hesitate, fight for the right gear and lurch forward. My sister finds it very unnerving at junctions. The Transporter on the other hand, is near on perfect, never any issues at junctions, no hesitation and always in the right gear for what you want to do. So the same combination, same driver, totally different characteristics. The dealer is going to investigate what may be the cause. Is it the hardware? The software? Or just one of those things when tolerances stack up well, or are at the limits and the results are different in use? I personally don’t believe BMW have designed in hesitation, ‘cause and effect’ certainly is involved. How much a driver assists this ‘hesitation’ is where I’d like to see some evidence established. BTW, I've driven three F10 auto examples, two 530d and a 335i, none displayed any strange auto characteristics, no hesitation. HighlandPete |
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 06:14 AM | #26 | ||
Lieutenant Colonel
306
Rep 1,684
Posts |
The safety delay exists on the 750.
Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 07:14 AM | #28 | ||
Major General
6359
Rep 6,569
Posts |
Quote:
Oh, for the record, I’m an engineer and have run dozens of measured experiments in my life in the lab. I’ve also conducted experiments in the field, on motor vehicles. Have you? Quote:
And when you say that “most people don’t complain about the delay”, how do you explain the article above written by Edmunds Inside Line? Or the countless other mentions in other magazines? Yes, Virginia, there is a delay. But it should NOT be there. Moreover, it is NOT there when the transmission is put into Sport mode. I tried this out again this morning and found that, again, the issue went away. Now, I do believe you that the programming of the drive by wire does have some manipulation to it. I am sure that there is smoothing of the initial input programmed into the logic. Of course you would want to not have a direct relationship at initial tip in. However, I would suggest that either you have never experienced the laaag….SLAM that others here have experienced or you have pulled the wool over your eyes for some reason. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 08:10 AM | #29 |
New Member
4
Rep 27
Posts |
Rules....the idea that the delay is also found on the 750 does not make me feel better. Bottomline, this is (was) to be the "Ultimate Driving Machine." And, frankly, my last BMW may have well been. If I find out this is a safety issue designed in the car, I will never return to this brand.
I understand that my tollerance for this issue may be less than others......I guess I was expecting better from a company that is known for pleasurable driving. I find it hard to believe that this is a matter of the F10 owner learning to drive the car. That IS BS...... I have two problems here. 1. If BMW is working on a solution or can offer advice to me as an owner as to how to drive the car to solve the problem, fine, I can wait/learn. 2. Without such advice, I am left deciding if I can live with the car or not. I earlier decided to trade and lick my wounds. That was fine until my dealership offered a full $16K less than I paid for the car 7 months ago! As it stands, I wish you luck when you decide to trade cars. With articles like Edmunds being published, we are all going to have a problem down the road when the "safety issue" on the F10 becomes common knowledge. |
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 08:24 AM | #30 | |
Private First Class
34
Rep 144
Posts |
Quote:
well put. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 08:38 AM | #31 | |||
Lieutenant Colonel
306
Rep 1,684
Posts |
Look, I did not mean to insult you.
The more you try to dispel my argument the more you keep making my argument for me. I have not changed my position, but it sure seems like you have. The delay is in all late model BMW vehicles. This is a safety delay. BMW concedes the delay is normal. I have presented evidence to show that other safety related features take human factors into consideration. I don't care that if you buy my argument. The funny thing is that everything you said supports my argument. You keep asking BMW to fix something that's not broken. Like it or not it's a feature. The delay is intentional. BMW may reduce the delay on m series cars for competitive reasons, I don't know. Look, if you really want BMW to get rid of or reduce the safety delay then you should create a metric called "pedal response" that measures this specific latency. Next, get all of the car companies to cooperate and reveal their metrics. Then you might effectuate a change in design. But, you could build data on your own without cooperation. This problem is similar in a small way to the speeds published for laser printers. Some manufacturers would make performance claims about their laser printers. For example, some would claim 50 pages per minute. But, the first page out was really slow. Once the printer got going then it would hit its rated speed. Some people only printed a page or two on these fast printers but had to wait until the fuser heated up and this took a lot longer for the first page out. The industry responded by creating a metric called "first page out". This soon resulted in laser printers that would immediately print the first page. And life was good. The same goes for BMW. Create a metric that is used to compare vehicles across the board regarding the initial pedal latency and I am sure BMW will finally address this issue once and for all. But, for now the safety delay stands. Since you claim to be an engineer, I suggest you direct your energy into solving the problem rather than trashing my posts. Quote:
|
|||
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 08:42 AM | #32 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
306
Rep 1,684
Posts |
D, these are awesome cars. It is a small price to pay for such awesome engineering. You will adjust to it. It can be annoying once in a while, but that is not often.
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 09:00 AM | #33 | |
Major General
6359
Rep 6,569
Posts |
Quote:
There is no such delay in the two 2011 328i's that I put approximately 500 miles on as loaners. Also, when my car went in to have all of the transmission adaptive parameters re-set, the car was much smoother for the first week. It has since returned to being very abrupt on takeoff. Something tells me you haven't experienced what others have. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 09:18 AM | #34 | |
Occasionally frequent poster
2994
Rep 2,742
Posts |
False. Have you driven every single late model BMW vehicle in every transmission configuration? If not, then listen to the people who have driven at least two different cars and have discrete data rather than opinions based on a guess.
Quote:
Your initial premise is wrong, and regardless of how much you type and try to defend your hypothesis, you'll never convince anyone who recognizes the fact that you are simply incorrect. A hypothesis based upon a falsehood is not going to sway many people.
__________________
Current inventory:
F22 & G05 Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing w/3 pedals Past: E24,E28(3),E34,E36,E37,E38(2),E39(4),E46,E89,E92 (obviously),F01,F06,F10,F30,F87,G12,G30(2),G82(2) |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 09:23 AM | #35 | ||
Lieutenant Colonel
306
Rep 1,684
Posts |
Sniff. You can't handle the truth that your bimmer isn't giving you all the performance it possibly could.
Thank goodness for that as the safety delay protects us losers from the likes of people like you on the road. Now, this was humor meant in good fun so please don't take this personally and flip out. Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 10:46 AM | #36 |
Private First Class
2
Rep 100
Posts |
Well, I just hope my 528i doesn't exhibit this behavior when I finally get it. I didn't notice any problem with either the 528i or the 535xi when I test drove them. If it's as bad as it sounds, you'd think I would have noticed as I was looking for issues with throttle and steering.
__________________
2017 540ix Dark Graphite Metallic/Ivory/Black Dakota
Previous 2014 535ix Imperial Blue/Oyster, Comfort Seats 2011 528i Cashmere Silver/Black Dakota 2001 530i Sport (deceased) |
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 11:10 AM | #37 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
306
Rep 1,684
Posts |
It is not that bad. Enjoy your new car!
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 12:09 PM | #39 |
Lieutenant Colonel
306
Rep 1,684
Posts |
I see your point. I can see how the safety delay might drive an experienced car enthusiast freaking
nuts. I do drink the BMW cool aide. At the same time I have no problem highlighting a deficiency such as the delay. Any well engineered product is the result of a series of compromises. BMW is no exception. For the general driver, like me, the safety delay is not too bothersome. So, I would hate for somebody else to avoid BMW because of this feature. But, I have put well over 600,000 miles on late model bimmers during the past 15 years. This is probably a lot less than many on this board. But, I don't think I qualify as a newbie. Maybe I am just too stupid to understand all of these complex concepts. Nonetheless, I lived through the transition to fly by wire accelerator during this time and this safety delay has been present since day 1. Again, you are correct in that I can be a walking advertisement for BMW. But, the beauty of these boards is that smart guys like you can smell people like me a mile away! |
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 12:21 PM | #40 |
Private First Class
34
Rep 144
Posts |
My car is now at the shop for the 4th time in just 8 months - to fix this jerking and hesitation... My dealer acknowledges it as an issue that needs to be fixed. There's a PuMA case open for it. So far no one at BMW said it was normal behavior.
I have a 320 loaner now, and the throttle is very smooth, and reacts as expected. Just like all previous loaners. |
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 01:01 PM | #41 |
Colonel
716
Rep 2,003
Posts |
I too enjoy reading alternative viewpoints, as critics always have a point..
btw, after some 'testing' in my car today, a few pts: 1.its very hard to test in sandals, with coffee in the car (note to self..) 2. it did feel 'unnatural', but being subjective, it requires a side-by-side comparison, with the contested point highlighted 3. i could make myself annoyed by whatever perceivable or imagined lag there is 4. but i quickly reverted to being pleased immensely with the car, as i normally am 5. programmed safety lag, if present can easily overlooked, adjusted to.. 6.side-by-side comparison would easily answer this question (but it does not bother me, so its for others to solve..thank you for reading) |
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 01:07 PM | #42 |
Major General
6359
Rep 6,569
Posts |
Then you have not experienced what others have.
Given you do not even have an F10 with the 8 speed auto, I am not surprised. It IS that bad. And to your point that a "non-enthusiast" would not tolerate it, my wife (who did not even tell me that her car was shaking so badly at 70 mph as to physically set a water bottle moving) finds it more bothersome than I do. |
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 01:16 PM | #43 |
Colonel
716
Rep 2,003
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-09-2011, 01:24 PM | #44 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
306
Rep 1,684
Posts |
Excellent research and conclusions Mr. Trimming!
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|