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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 BMW 5-Series (F10) Forums General 5-Series Sedan and Wagon (F10 / F11) Forum Autocar slags F10 ride without VDC
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      05-19-2010, 01:23 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE135i View Post
Erasmus, what do you think of the performance of the 528i with auto?
I have driven the F10 530d and 535i both auto but no 528i yet.

So I would like to know more about what you think about the engine.

Whar do you think of the throttle response torque etc of the 528i. Does the car feel fast, ok or a bit heavy and slow? If you compare with the E60 please mention which engine/model of the E60 you compare with.

Thank you in advance
Man, man, this car revs like nothing I have ever experienced before, The sports mode (automatic gear box) will easily starts at 6.000 rpm if you floor it faster than you can blink. For a 3.0l engine given the weight of the car, it is fast (6.6 0 - 100km/h, top speed 250km/h / 155mph).
The sound is just .... AAAAAHHHH !!!!... I've just been revving the engine more, because I've passed the magic line of 2000 km And I absolutely love it. Never again a diesel (well, never say never of course). The throttle response is excellent, no diesel turbo lag or whatsoever. When you think about it, it is there. In other words, when you step on the pedal, it respons at the instance. There is a HUGE difference with my former 525 diesel (E61) - chipped tuned to 210pk / 500NM.
The car feels fast not heavy at all. When you order a 535i or a 550i you will be catapulted. The 528i can be economical too. 100km/h 6,5l/100km (no problemo). But it is the sound that is the most satisfactionable. Defintely more worthwile than the diesel engine, and (!) no turbo lag of course.
Very, very fast cornering however needs an addition (sports suspension or the elec. adds). Today I was together with a 530d (E60) in a corner with 140km/h, so ... no problem there, but in that kind of (ridiculous ) situations, you will need to 'feel' the car more than the former model. It is a car for the executives. But, may we have some fun too ??? There's a lot a driving fun with this car I can tell you.


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      05-19-2010, 02:15 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
Better buy a Citroen C6 in the first place then.
Thank you for the horrid flashback with the C6 reference ...

Last month I was stuck in Athens with the wife and kids due to the Volcanic Cloud Ash Attack. After 8 days of vacationing the 3 extra days in Athens was not too welcome but when the 3rd day came we had an opportunity to fly into Vienna on the only flight (mainly because I cornered Aegean Air to pay for my hotel every night), but to stay on topic ... the C6 ....

After a 1 hour train ride and a 2.5 or so hour flight we landed in Vienna and went to the Hertz rental desk to pick up my luxury class rental to drive from Vienna to Frankfurt. The rental manager assured me I would be driving 1st class in a C6 and all the EU presidents drive around in this. I am a hardy traveler but I was pretty worn out and just asked for the keys. We left at 8pm and arrived at 4am, 8 hours middle of the night drive, kids and wife asleep and just me and the road, mono v mono and I can tell you with 100% surety ....

I would rather walk out my door every morning and get a swift kick in me arse then drive that sled again.
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      05-21-2010, 10:31 PM   #201
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I test drove a 535i today without option 2VA adaptive drive, with 18 inch on generally smooth curvy roads. There was body roll but within acceptable (to me) tolerance for usual daily driving and turning A very well built and impressive looking car. The sports automatic transmission is a must have especially when taking into account its costs

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      05-22-2010, 08:16 AM   #202
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M-sport suspension etc...

Thanks Erasmus for the info about your experience with the performance of the 528i.

Regarding the suspension discussion here, My local dealership have a 530d with 704 M-sport suspension, 2VH integral active steering and 19 inch W-332 setup. No 2VA Adaptive drive or 223 Dynamic Damper. The M-sport suspension cannot be ordered on cars with 2VA or 223.

I have have driven this car and i felt both comfort, handling and performance of the car was great. In my opinion both steering feel and comfort and handling of the F10 530d felt much better than the E60 535d with Active steering, M-sportsuspension and 19 inch wheels.

Since the 704 M-sport suspension is most likely to be included in the future M-psort package for the F10 and the M-sportpackage most likely will be include 19-inch wheels and possibly 20-inch wheels. This would mean that a setup with 19-inch or 20-inch wheels with M-sport suspension would have been tested and optimized by BMW. In other words the best setup with 704 M-sport suspension should be 19 or 20 inch wheels.

Regarding the look of the F10 I would prefer the M-sport suspension since it also lowers a the car about 10mm which in my eyes appear to actually be visible when comparing an F10 with and without the lower M-psort suspension at the dealership. The wheel gap looked significantly smaller.

Or does the 223 Dynamic Damper include the possibility to adjust the ride height of the suspension?
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      05-23-2010, 02:30 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE135i View Post
Or does the 223 Dynamic Damper include the possibility to adjust the ride height of the suspension?
Options 223 and 2VA do not.
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      06-12-2010, 01:09 PM   #204
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sorry but what is vdc
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      06-12-2010, 02:57 PM   #205
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VDC stands for Variable Dampening Control if I'm not mistaken.
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      06-14-2010, 06:29 AM   #206
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More from Autocar on the F11...

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/...ouring/250457/

BMW 520d Touring
Test date 11 June 2010 Price as tested £30,380

Boot space is a healthy 560 litres, and opens up to 1670 litres
What is it?
This is the fourth-generation 5-series Touring, some 19 years on from the original E34-series model was launched. 650,000 of the breed have been built so far.

Like the saloon, the 5-series Touring is based on the same architecture as the 7-series. This gives it one of the longest wheelbases in this class and more legroom than the outgoing model.

What’s it like?
It’s arguably rather better looking the saloon. The Touring only shares its front half (from the B-pillar forwards) with the saloon but the long, slightly sloping, roofline and hatchback rear seems to do a better job of balancing out the 5’s flat bonnet and bluff, upright, nose.

BMW’s engineers say they went to great lengths to improve the Touring’s luggage and load-lugging utility, ensuring the car isn’t just a lifestyle estate.

Despite the falling roofline, the load height is pretty impressive as is the width of the tailgate opening. The hinges and counterweight mechanisms for the tailgate have been compressed into the roof panel, which results in a completely uncluttered loading aperture.

The boot space is a very healthy 560 litres - enough, as BMW demonstrated, to swallow a washing machine. The capacity will extend to 1670 litres with the rear seats down.

BMW has put plenty of detail work in here, too. The rear seat is now split 40:20:40 (and advance on the standard 60:40 split, which usually finds the widest part of the seat on the wrong side for right hand drive cars).

The sprung-loaded seatsbacks can be dropped by pulling a flap in the side of the loadbay. They also lie almost flat when down and the seat back angle can be adjusted when they are erect.

Like the first 5-series Touring, the new model has a flip-open rear screen set within the tailgate. This handy touch is augmented by luggage cover that be slid – while still extended, up and along the inside of the D-pillars, making loading shopping through the rear window rather easier.

This 520d manual is the entry-level model in the UK. For the £30,380 on-the-road price it is pretty handsomely specced. Rear air suspension and self-levelling is standard, as is stop-start, leather upholstery, cruise control, parking radar front and rear, upmarket audio and Bluetooth.

On most levels, this is a beautifully engineered and realized car, which, in entry-level form, really feels worth the money. The engine is obviously diesel when pressing on, but it’s otherwise perfectly class competitive and, and thanks to the extensive armory of Efficient Dynamics kit, remarkably frugal.

The only area for nit-picking is with the chassis tuning. According to one senior BMW engineer, the philosophy when tuning the 5-series chassis was to err towards driver comfort: the average 5-series driver is around 50 years old. Truth is, it shows.

Our German test car also had 18in wheels and Dynamic Damper Control. DDC allows the driver to select ‘comfort’, ‘normal’, ‘sport’ and ‘sport plus’ modes.

Most UK drivers will not opt for the DDC, but according to a BMW engineer who worked on the new 5-series, the standard UK chassis equates to somewhere between ‘normal’ and ‘sport’.

However, only in Sport mode did the car feel decently alive and keen on changing direction reasonably quickly. Overall it was swift enough (especially considering the promised economy), stable, confidence inspiring and thoroughly premium-feeling.

Should I buy one?
As agreeable as this 5 Touring was, it was not particularly sporting – more briskly competent. It’s also clear that at softer settings, the 5’s dampers deliver a demonstrably poorer ride on poor surfaces, something that affects the UK particularly.

BMW’s engineers are so concerned with the feedback, that they are set to conduct UK road tests very shortly in order to tweak the 5-series’ standard chassis settings before sales begin in September.


If they can put the final spark back into this car, it will be a remarkably complete machine.

Hilton Holloway
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      06-14-2010, 06:32 AM   #207
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Similar info from evo magazine also...

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...0d_review.html

BMW 530d review
Rating: 2.5 Stars

The ultimate executive saloon? Henry Catchpole reports on the new BMW 5-Series

Text: Henry Catchpole / Photos: Henry Catchpole/BMWApril 2010

What is it?

New 2010 BMW 5-Series with a fast and frugal six-cylinder diesel. 0-62mph is dispatched in just 6.3sec and yet it will do 45.6mpg on the combined cycle. It costs £37,100.

Technical highlights?

This car has the new optional eight-speed automatic gearbox (priced at £1495 without paddles, £1605 with). This auto ‘box combined with BMW’s Efficient Dynamics package achieves a phenomenal CO2 rating of 160g/km.

What’s it like to drive?

The engine is as fantastic as you would expect. BMW has long produced brilliant diesel powerplants (a 330d was the first diesel ever to make it into an eCoty contest) and it pulls as smoothly and cleanly as ever.

The chassis is less impressive, however. This particular car has the basic 5 Series set up with standard passive dampers and unfortunately it feels like the compromise that it is. Grip is good and you can get a decently relaxed flow going down a smooth road, but over bumps there is a thumpiness and wallow that certainly doesn’t smack of ‘The Ultimate Driving Machine’. The speed-sensitive steering doesn’t have any feel either, which exacerbates the feeling of piloting a very big car (which it is) with slightly hard-to-place extremities. As Ollie said ‘it feels and behaves more like a 7-Series’.

It would seem that you need to spec the optional £965 adaptive dampers, and possibly add an extra £1255 for the adaptive anti-roll bars too, to make the 5-Series drive as you would wish.

How does it compare?

At £37,100 for a completey un-optioned 530d SE the BMW is sitting squarely in Jaguar XF territory. For £37,730 you could have a 271bhp XF Diesel S. You can see how it fared against the last generation 5 Series here. And unfortunately for BMW the Jaguar is the more desirable, quicker, more dynamic and more pleasurable car. The only place the BMW wins is on economy and CO2 output.

Anything else I need to know?

The map for the satellite navigation is very cool – a 3D topographical display appears as you zoom out.
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      06-14-2010, 03:23 PM   #208
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So here we go again, with the latest comments on less than ideal basic setups for the UK.

It is why I'm waiting for production F11 tourings to be on the road, then test the suspension setups. After being 'bitten' by the poor 3-series suspensions, I'm not getting caught again. I still think the core problem is hiding poor RFT behaviour, so everything is a poor compromise. E39 cars could do it all, and no real compromises. We seem to have gone backwards and BMW are scared to lose their key customers, due to tyres. But a poor suspension compromise does not win customers either, certainly not my money, and I'm supposedly a typical 5-series customer.

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      06-14-2010, 04:05 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
So here we go again, with the latest comments on less than ideal basic setups for the UK.

It is why I'm waiting for production F11 tourings to be on the road, then test the suspension setups. After being 'bitten' by the poor 3-series suspensions, I'm not getting caught again. I still think the core problem is hiding poor RFT behaviour, so everything is a poor compromise. E39 cars could do it all, and no real compromises. We seem to have gone backwards and BMW are scared to lose their key customers, due to tyres. But a poor suspension compromise does not win customers either, certainly not my money, and I'm supposedly a typical 5-series customer.

HighlandPete
Same here. Seems the standard set-up is not tuned for RFTs (17" non-RFT are the base fitment in many EU countries) and this is catching-out BMW UK, who insist on the RFT option. Combined with the UK's twisty camber changing roads and mixed road surfaces, many are saying the same thing - the F10 standard set-up is wrong wrong wrong! The only current way out is to opt for VDC but the car sits very high and looks ... wrong. I'm also waiting but to try the M-Sport set-up before parting with any money. I've wasted a lot of money trying different tyres on my E90. Yet again Autocar hint at BMW tuning the set-up for the UK - this says wait until the next production stage for BMW - March 2011 looks good from here provided test drives this autumn satisfy me. I'm also a typical 5 buyer, and lifetime BMW driver, but I may have to look elsewhere if not satisfied with the F10 - handling/ride/steering is everything in the UK - like a mid-life refreshed XF? Come on BMW get it sorted the UK is not a small market for you.
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      06-14-2010, 04:20 PM   #210
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BTW - clearly UK testing has not been fully done or the test drivers did not understand the UK needs. Best to sit on your money and wait.

I also wonder if the same team that worked on the early E46s has also worked on the F10? The early E46s were dreadful, compared with E36s, on UK roads - there were "wandering" issues with front bushing.
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      06-15-2010, 05:12 AM   #211
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I don't fully understand why BMW can't get it right first time these days, needed the suspension mods to the E60 at facelift time, also the E90/1 cars had damper revisions which improved the suspension.

I don't believe they really understand UK road construction. I'm aware the E90 3-series cars were tested over here, they came north as far as Inverness I understand. My dealer in Perth was aware of them using the A9, but I asked if they left the A9 and used some of the more taxing roads in the north west Highlands. They didn't believe so. If that is correct, then they didn't really even get on the complex roads some of us use. The A9 is a typical 'good' trunkroad, (in most places). It is once off that kind of surface that cars really get interesting, as to whether they work welll, or are a bunch of compomises that result in a dynamic mess. The E39 was very good indeed, across a broad spread of roads.

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      06-15-2010, 05:42 AM   #212
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Lets hope they fully tested the M-Sport set-up in the UK. Would make some sence as most 5s are M-Sport here. Again will have to drive and check before ordering.
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      06-15-2010, 05:56 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I don't fully understand why BMW can't get it right first time these days, needed the suspension mods to the E60 at facelift time, also the E90/1 cars had damper revisions which improved the suspension.

I don't believe they really understand UK road construction. I'm aware the E90 3-series cars were tested over here, they came north as far as Inverness I understand. My dealer in Perth was aware of them using the A9, but I asked if they left the A9 and used some of the more taxing roads in the north west Highlands. They didn't believe so. If that is correct, then they didn't really even get on the complex roads some of us use. The A9 is a typical 'good' trunkroad, (in most places). It is once off that kind of surface that cars really get interesting, as to whether they work welll, or are a bunch of compomises that result in a dynamic mess. The E39 was very good indeed, across a broad spread of roads.

HighlandPete
Same here Pete. Seems BMW "throw the car out" and then tweak for UK market/roads later - Autocar are on to them this time! I've seen similar repeating patterns with software issues e.g., RDS and radio tuner sensitivity set-up. It all spells wait and sit on your money - its the only way to get their attention.

BTW - BMW UK is the 3rd largest market fro BMW! Third is not top of the list, so this may explain the UK specific issues we easily find in early deliveries - back to waiting. Guiney pigs - not with my money BMW been there before with you.
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      06-15-2010, 06:09 AM   #214
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Well, autocar can keep on dreaming with their nonsense:

I've been driving my 535i on 704 Sportssuspension an 19"RFT's(GoodYear Excellence) for a week now with about 250kms on countryside roads like in the UK.(I know those roads, here in the northern part of NL dito, potholes/bumps/holes/lost tarmac from the winter before...)

And the chassis/wheel/tyrecombo is great.

No harsh ride at all, au contraire, it sometimes feels even more like a boat than I want.... I 'd like it a bit tougher. Maybe I'll switch to sportier shocks/springs if Schnitzer/Eibach/Koni/Hartge comes up with some for the F10....

Cheers
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      06-15-2010, 06:31 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
Well, autocar can keep on dreaming with their nonsense:

I've been driving my 535i on 704 Sportssuspension an 19"RFT's(GoodYear Excellence) for a week now with about 250kms on countryside roads like in the UK.(I know those roads, here in the northern part of NL dito, potholes/bumps/holes/lost tarmac from the winter before...)

And the chassis/wheel/tyrecombo is great.

No harsh ride at all, au contraire, it sometimes feels even more like a boat than I want.... I 'd like it a bit tougher. Maybe I'll switch to sportier shocks/springs if Schnitzer/Eibach/Koni/Hartge comes up with some for the F10....

Cheers
Robin
Great feedback.

BTW - Both Autocar and Evo have not tried option 704, as this is not available in the UK, they have issues with the standard set-up combined with RFTs!


WIsh I could try option 704 today but the UK must wait for the full M-SPort package in the autum.
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      06-16-2010, 05:06 AM   #216
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Carl... Did you notice Autocar's Hilton Holloway's comment in the blog?


Quote:
I wonder how much the chassis tuning of the new 5-series was influenced by complaints about the last model? I presume they had early run-flat tyres?

There's no doubt the new 5-series has been backed off quite a way from the old model. In Germany, the DCC-equipped car I drove had to be positively steered away from the straight-ahead when in 'Normal' mode.

We're not pleading for M-settings on the base model, just a BMW that has a bit more life and is keen to change direction.

I've spent the last couple of days on the Lancashire backroads with the Autocar 5GT and that car steers into bends with more enthusiasm than the 5-series. The ride in the 'normal' setting of the DCC is a shambles, though.

In 'Sport' the GT actually rides quite well, without feeling at all harsh. Normal is poor and Comfort completely uncontrolled. No wonder the 5-series chief engineer is on his way to the UK....
I'm not surprised to read this, once we get onto the typical roads many of us drive. Poor suspension tuning for the UK, as we have said, not a new problem for BMW. We are still guinea pigs, IMO, I clearly sense more test drives are necessary, on roads I drive.

It is so strange, but there is something about UK roads that have baffled many car makers. Even VW had issues until they head hunted Ford suspension engineers to sort the Golf platform. Rover suspension engineers were some of the best for getting it right, shame the cars were not the right image. But they could set up a car to work well in the UK, sport suspensions as well as comfort setups.

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      06-16-2010, 06:37 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Carl... Did you notice Autocar's Hilton Holloway's comment in the blog?




I'm not surprised to read this, once we get onto the typical roads many of us drive. Poor suspension tuning for the UK, as we have said, not a new problem for BMW. We are still guinea pigs, IMO, I clearly sense more test drives are necessary, on roads I drive.

It is so strange, but there is something about UK roads that have baffled many car makers. Even VW had issues until they head hunted Ford suspension engineers to sort the Golf platform. Rover suspension engineers were some of the best for getting it right, shame the cars were not the right image. But they could set up a car to work well in the UK, sport suspensions as well as comfort setups.

HighlandPete
Yeah, completely agree Pete.

I do not think VDC is the answer, unless you want endless software upgrades as with early I-Drive, it would be a nightmare! God help the 5GT customers. I vote for BMW getting the non-VDC correct and ideally M-Sport for the UK.

BTW the Jaguar guys get non-VDC cars spot on (as did Rover) for our mixed roads but even the XF with VDC is knobbly (again avoid). As you say the E39 was perfect and so was the E36 IMO. It has been said many many times, "tune a car for the UK and it will work in any market". Seems BMW are obsessed with VDC and post delivery software tweaks. Best avoided for now!

I also recall a Dutch chassis tuner, who defect from BMW to Audi a while back (~10 years) and since then we've had issues - so it not just RFT issues I think, as the early E46 was also wrong! Must Google him.

Vauxhall/Opel had chassis issues too until Lotus tuned their cars for UK roads. Honda also.

Seems BMW have softened things to suite their largest market, America, as there have been major issues with over firm ride due to RFTs. Looks like they have tuned too far to comfort to hid RFT issues? Sometime you cannot avoid the laws of physics! I'm hoping M-Sport will be spot on for the UK but we are denied option 704 for some reason (marketing plays?).
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      06-16-2010, 06:51 AM   #218
carl_d
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Just read Autocar, paper version, of F11 test. And yet again they say BMW will tune the chassis for the UK. That's twice now, as this has been the F10 also.

I email BMW UK, in April to ask when these changes where due, and got this reply "We have not yet received information on any revised/fixed suspension for non-VDC cars and the M-Sport availability is also yet to be confirmed." The key point here is they do not deny what Autocar said in April - that changes are coming. BTW - its clear M-Sport is now on its way!

There is clearly a very big issue with the F10/F11 on UK roads and also the 5GT. The F01 also got poor reviews. This is not looking good for BMW in the UK. Sit on your money and wait - a mid life updated XF is the fall back.
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      06-16-2010, 03:01 PM   #219
HighlandPete
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I forgot to mention Jaguar and their XF, on simple but well sorted suspension.

When I drove the XF back at launch in February 2008, I had this to say...

Quote:
The drive in the XF diesel, on 17" wheels was good, just felt the steering was too light for my taste. Very accurate, but light. Did get the car off the A9 and onto some country lanes, very competent and poised but steering was still too light, would like a bit more weighting like a 5-series BMW. Strange thing the ride was very similar to my 3-series on normal tyres and the Koni FSD dampers. A bit uncanny really, as I thought it would be somehow 'smoother', certainly different. Can't see any RFT car matching the way it gets rid of the small bumps and road imperfections. Suspension certainly absorbs the road, not amplify the road faults as do RFTs.
I like the current ride in my 3-series, on non run-flats and Koni FSDs, as it is totally predictable, compliant and a fluid drive, with a sporty edge. Much more 'mature' than any standard E9* 3-series I've driven. So has raised the bar, as far as I'm concerned, (where any decent BMW should be). I don't expect any new 5-series to be less in any aspect of dynamics, steering, ride quality, or handling.

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