[n3985]

[QUOTE=J35 - N52]The very next thing that must be addressed is all the positive camber on the front axle which causes understeer (safety reasons, what happens when lawyers help build cars) and uneven wear on the outer tire.QUOTE]

What...

Are you the OP under a different screen name again?

Camber doesn't wear out tires unless crazy amount, toe does.

Camber plates bring on a whole new level of NVH and is overkill for a street car. It would be easier to install new upper control like below to get more negative camber w/o sacrificing other ride qualities.

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...h/31126779908/

[lsturbointeg]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

I think what holds back the f10 from steering well is the soft suspension and hefty weight rather then the rack itself. it may not be as communicative or eager to turn in as the hydraulic setups in the e60/e90, but it still has a good amount of feel and overall the whole car feels like a decent balance between straight line composure and handling prowess.

like I said, the curb weight is holding back the car, but with coilovers, sway bars, good tires and an LSD this car would handle sweet!

even in stock form, with my floaty base suspension I have lots of fun with my 5 series around the twisty stuff, as long as you are going roughly 80km/h or faster. below that speed, it feels too floaty and unwilling to rotate. absolutely zero feel around slow, tight corners.

exactly. a few upgrades and the car can handle. like i mentioned before, i'm pretty aggressive so when hitting turns i'll hit it pretty hard and i'll push the car past it's limits to actually see what she's capable of. sitting on KW's and wide tires 255 fronts and 295 rears she's planted and i know when i pushing her cause i'm leaning into the turn until i hear her a$$ break loose a bit and it feels awesome! i'm really interested to see how much more of a difference if i add the sway bars. anybody ever look into these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Racing...dWKMC7&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-F-10-525...tZUGnI&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ULTRA-RACING...1YrTln&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-F-10-525...pZQJ3j&vxp=mtr

[Surly73]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

I think what holds back the f10 from steering well is the soft suspension and hefty weight rather then the rack itself. it may not be as communicative or eager to turn in as the hydraulic setups in the e60/e90, but it still has a good amount of feel and overall the whole car feels like a decent balance between straight line composure and handling prowess.

I have hydraulic steering on my F10 - it doesn't fix the "problem".

like I said, the curb weight is holding back the car, but with coilovers, sway bars, good tires and an LSD this car would handle sweet!

I've done bars so far, and that makes a very significant improvement. There's still not a lot of good, useful feedback. The steering ratio is too slow, and there's not enough perception of the road coming back. I do feel stuff in the wheel, but it's usually just a jarring sensation of the RFTs crashing around and not something that really communicates anything going on at the rubber/road interface. I'm planning to go with non-RFT for summer, at least, and that may improve things.

Now, "feel" doesn't affect "lap time" or how aggressively you can turn. But "feel" is definitely part of an engaging driving experience, and a prior hallmark of the BMW brand.

[Bmw doubles]

Originally Posted by Surly73

I have hydraulic steering on my F10 - it doesn't fix the "problem".

I've done bars so far, and that makes a very significant improvement. There's still not a lot of good, useful feedback. The steering ratio is too slow, and there's not enough perception of the road coming back. I do feel stuff in the wheel, but it's usually just a jarring sensation of the RFTs crashing around and not something that really communicates anything going on at the rubber/road interface. I'm planning to go with non-RFT for summer, at least, and that may improve things.

Now, "feel" doesn't affect "lap time" or how aggressively you can turn. But "feel" is definitely part of an engaging driving experience, and a prior hallmark of the BMW brand.

When you say bars do you mean strut tower?

I've done sway rear and front and the rear helped. The front did not maybe a bigger front sway than the M5 would have been better. Like the sway in the comp pack M5.

Lowering the car and adding Koni dramatically changes the handling for the better.

Steering is def slow in responsiveness. Changing to non RFT helps with ride quality, but not turn in. I feeI I may have slowed the turn in by going from 245 to 255 in the front. Wondering if a set of 235's summer tires in the front would fix the slow maneuvering. Also curious if ditching the electronic steering for the hydraulic rack from the xdrive would help with overall feel.

[n3985]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

I was saying that the steering response is inhibited by the soft suspension (which is really dulling steering response and feedback) rather then the rack itself. with coilovers, the steering would feel great and genuinely have feel.

on top of that, I remember when I switched from the horrific goodyear runflats to pilot super sports with low profile rubber, steering response improved. now all that is really needed is coilovers.



he meant sway bars i believe, not the strut brace.

bilstein is a far better option for this vehicle, or any vehicle for that matter then koni.

the front negative camber for these vehicles are relatively mild. if you dialed it up to roughly -1.5 front to match the rears, turn in and overall front axle grip would improve drastically.

changing the steering rack would not do anything unless you have sporty suspension. the steering rack might feel slow witted, but it is actually a very sensitive rack. the problem is the soft suspension which is really dulling response and making it "feel" slow.

changing from run flats to low profile performance tires absolutely makes a difference. more then you would actually expect with overall turn in, response, body roll, etc.

It all depends on what tire width you are putting on what width rim. for example, 245 tires on an 8 inch rim is going to be a little bit too wide and may slightly dull response at low speed.

for a 255 tire, ideally you want a 9 inch rim.

before i forget to mention, BMW OEM rims are EXTREMELY heavy. replacing them with some lightweight 19 inch rims would make a big difference with turn in as long as you have the front camber appropriately tuned for aggressive cornering. with the current setup at roughly -0.5 front, -1.8 rear all this is going to do is induce understeer at the limit. balance it out and the front axle will grip much stronger.

Welcome back OP STR8-6IX

[paul223]

If you have base or m sport, changing the springs and H&R sway bar makes big difference in handling, almost becomes perfect ride. Less than $1000 total cost including labor.

[Bmw doubles]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

I was saying that the steering response is inhibited by the soft suspension (which is really dulling steering response and feedback) rather then the rack itself. with coilovers, the steering would feel great and genuinely have feel.

on top of that, I remember when I switched from the horrific goodyear runflats to pilot super sports with low profile rubber, steering response improved. now all that is really needed is coilovers.

he meant sway bars i believe, not the strut brace.

bilstein is a far better option for this vehicle, or any vehicle for that matter then koni.

the front negative camber for these vehicles are relatively mild. if you dialed it up to roughly -1.5 front to match the rears, turn in and overall front axle grip would improve drastically.

changing the steering rack would not do anything unless you have sporty suspension. the steering rack might feel slow witted, but it is actually a very sensitive rack. the problem is the soft suspension which is really dulling response and making it "feel" slow.

changing from run flats to low profile performance tires absolutely makes a difference. more then you would actually expect with overall turn in, response, body roll, etc.

It all depends on what tire width you are putting on what width rim. for example, 245 tires on an 8 inch rim is going to be a little bit too wide and may slightly dull response at low speed.

for a 255 tire, ideally you want a 9 inch rim.

before i forget to mention, BMW OEM rims are EXTREMELY heavy. replacing them with some lightweight 19 inch rims would make a big difference with turn in as long as you have the front camber appropriately tuned for aggressive cornering. with the current setup at roughly -0.5 front, -1.8 rear all this is going to do is induce understeer at the limit. balance it out and the front axle will grip much stronger.

I've heard blistens are very stiff. With my adjustables I can easily switch between settings and go street to track in minutes. I agree with the lighter rims and going down in diameter. I have 20 super heavy 6 series rims.

[johnhva]

I didn't buy my F10 for its handling. It's my touring car with lots of comforts. It's big and heavy with rather dead steering feel -- the plain old E90 sedan it replaced could handle rings around it. But it's comfy on a long trip without being floaty. A firmed-up M-sport version handles differently but are still too fat and heavy to really throw around, although I'm sure lots of guys here throw their F10s around. For fun driving I have an E46 convertible (and an R1200RT).

[Bmw doubles]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

honestly, I am against 20" for this chassis period. i've tried them before on a 535i - they ride nice, but it's just WAY too much weight on all four corners on an already heavy car. it just neuters any sort of potential that the chassis has. I feel like 19's are optimal for this chassis, but you just have to look for lightweight aftermarket options. if you are ditching the runflats, you dont need such a heavy OEM rim especially for any sort of spirited driving.

we may be talking about different bilsteins, but someone over at bimmerfest could not stop raving about the bilstein b12 kit (b8 sport struts with eibach springs.) I have been told that a good strut to spring pairing will always ride nice regardless. the bilstein b8 struts are stiff, but the eibach springs offer compliance which makes it great for just about any sort of driving except for extremes. anyways, i strongly suggest you read up on this thread and the follow up post. the b12 kit just seems SUPER well tuned to the f10 chassis and I have heard much better the koni or H&R.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=905274

Its all subjective really. I like my eibach / koni adjustables and having the ability to dial hem in for different days. Nice read though thanks

[lsturbointeg]

[Bmw doubles]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

lowering springs on OEM struts is never a good idea. the ride and handling will not be optimized like it would be with a proper strut/spring combo.

Totally agreed, I switch my springs on stock shocks and blew them all out within days.

[lsturbointeg]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

lowering springs on OEM struts is never a good idea. the ride and handling will not be optimized like it would be with a proper strut/spring combo.

or better yet going with coilovers where the engineers combined the best spring rates and shocks per vehicle specs

[Bruno112]

DDC with ACS is it best combination for not losing comfort?
What about Eibach pro-kit,is it same like ACS?

[Bruno112]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

Eibach and ACS are made by the same manufacturer, but they are NOT the same. both are great springs, but people claim that ACS is better overall.

what is DDC?

if you have smooth roads where you live, even the bilstein b8 sport will be comfortable yet handle great. you can also add in sway bars, as it does not affect comfort but gets rid of much of the body roll. take a look at this thread if you are interested. don't forget to read the follow-up review below. this is a wonderful suspension setup.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=905274

I will buy 650i sway bar,Schnitzer doesnt replied on my emails so i cant get offer and price.
DDC is dynamic dumper control (or electronic) so that's why I will not change struts,this is my favorite thing on car.
I live on Balkan so i have mountains on roads
Thanks for ansver

[cdmulders]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

the sway bars will make it handle great.
I think you can upgrade your springs to ACS for even better handling, but I am not sure if this will interfere with your DDC.

I can confirm that ACS springs will not interfere with Dynamic Damper Control (DDC) nor Active Roll Stabilization (ARS). All three are on my F10.

[Bruno112]

600 dollar is offer in EU for ACS springs.How much you pay?

[cdmulders]

Originally Posted by Bruno112

600 dollar is offer in EU for ACS springs.How much you pay?

I paid about 500 Euro for the springs and another 300 Euro for installation. My total price (before wheel alignment) was therefore about 800 Euro.

[cdmulders]

Originally Posted by Get Inline

What is your thoughts/opinion on the ACS spring compared to stock?

Here is a cut&paste from something I posted on the Wheels & Suspension group:

BLUF (Bottom line up front): ACS springs and the dynamic suspension work very well together.

I have the dynamic handling package with both the dynamic damping (shocks) and the active role stabilization (sway bars). My 535xi handled quite well without the ACS springs and cornering was relatively flat for this heavy car. I'm not trying to compare it to a 3 series or something else lighter, mind you, but it was not bad. You could still feel the weight with the mild but predictable understeer.

Now, with the ACS springs, handling is more responsive, and the car is even more composed on tight corners. I would not say that the ACS springs transformed the ride, but they certainly improved the handling. On a mildly negative side, the ride is a little harsher, as expected. While the ACS springs do transmit more of what both the roads and wheels are doing to the rest of the car (which I suppose is the entire point of sport suspension), I can now feel more bumps and and I can also feel some mild wheel damage that I experienced on some hideous potholes a few months ago.

And now, here's a gratuitous picture. In case you are curious, the wheels are from Kelleners, Munich-style, 19".

[Pierre Louis]

I like the handling of my "standard suspension" 535d which BTW came with better wheels and tires than the lower priced and lesser equipped (not by much) 528i.

My sport package 335d handled excellently on the track, but was mostly annoying as a daily driver. I would consider the "luxury" suspension W211 E320 CDI as my standard for this. I'll see how the 535d does as part of the complementary track weekend and let y'all know.

PL

[Sumptuous Hummus]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

I like the handling of my "standard suspension" 535d which BTW came with better wheels and tires than the lower priced and lesser equipped (not by much) 528i.

My sport package 335d handled excellently on the track, but was mostly annoying as a daily driver. I would consider the "luxury" suspension W211 E320 CDI as my standard for this. I'll see how the 535d does as part of the complementary track weekend and let y'all know.

PL

how was the 335d annoying as a daily driver?

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by Sumptuous Hummus

how was the 335d annoying as a daily driver?

Well, it was more of a sports car and less a daily driver. I drove it over 100,000 miles.

The 6 speed automatic was nothing like a manual transmission.

The tires were a bit over-sized on the staggered summer tire equipped sports package - great on the track, touchy and darty on the road - especially with Michelin PSS's. The tires wore out very quickly and the wheels were fragile, even though they were probably better than other e90 wheels for strength.

The wheel alignment was very touchy and took a bit of effort to get it right. e90's have an odd suspension geometry that would turn the front wheels strongly while braking at a light with an uneven pavement. The double wishbone (A arm) front suspension on the 535d is much better than the McPherson struts on the e90 as is the rear multi-link.

The vaunted hydraulic steering was too stiff and sluggish, IMO.

It was a bit too tight for space for my growing physique - a poor job IMO since I've had smaller cars (Porsches - not the new ones, and an e30 318is) that fit better.

The fuel economy wasn't up to diesel standards. My heavier 535d that is just as fast gets 5 mpg better.

North American 335d's had trouble with the DEF tanks - which BMW finally agreed to fix under a special extended warranty. By then that and other problems with the relatively new emission system brought resale NA 335d's prices pretty far down for a diesel BMW.

But it was a car that I enjoyed driving much of the time when I wasn't tired. A lot like my Carrera 3.2 w/sport suspension was.

Cheers.

PL

[Sumptuous Hummus]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Well, it was more of a sports car and less a daily driver. I drove it over 100,000 miles.

The 6 speed automatic was nothing like a manual transmission.

The tires were a bit over-sized on the staggered summer tire equipped sports package - great on the track, touchy and darty on the road - especially with Michelin PSS's. The tires wore out very quickly and the wheels were fragile, even though they were probably better than other e90 wheels for strength.

The wheel alignment was very touchy and took a bit of effort to get it right. e90's have an odd suspension geometry that would turn the front wheels strongly while braking at a light with an uneven pavement. The double wishbone (A arm) front suspension on the 535d is much better than the McPherson struts on the e90 as is the rear multi-link.

The vaunted hydraulic steering was too stiff and sluggish, IMO.

It was a bit too tight for space for my growing physique - a poor job IMO since I've had smaller cars (Porsches - not the new ones, and an e30 318is) that fit better.

The fuel economy wasn't up to diesel standards. My heavier 535d that is just as fast gets 5 mpg better.

North American 335d's had trouble with the DEF tanks - which BMW finally agreed to fix under a special extended warranty. By then that and other problems with the relatively new emission system brought resale NA 335d's prices pretty far down for a diesel BMW.

But it was a car that I enjoyed driving much of the time when I wasn't tired. A lot like my Carrera 3.2 w/sport suspension was.

Cheers.

PL

I found the e90 to be a really good mix between comfort and performance and don't really see anything wrong with it on the street personally. Could've been because of low profile tires that it was not comfortable?

The steering is heavy, but I much prefer that over the light steering you see in most cars.

The PSS's are not a dedicated track tire, more like high performance steet. I find them to be a lovely tire, quiet, smooth responsive with very good grip. Treadwear doesn't seem great and they are pricey though.

The 8 speed definitely makes up for the extra weight of the f10 and makes the car faster and more fuel efficient. It's a great transmission.

I've only driven the e90 with a manual, but the auto transmission in it is a good unit.