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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 BMW 5-Series (F10) Forums General 5-Series Sedan and Wagon (F10 / F11) Forum Just had the battery replaced...and now limp mode...and now engine replacement...
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      12-27-2013, 05:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzbullseye View Post

Did I purchase a CPO lemon in my 550i? I really don't think so, but time will ultimately tell. One thing is for certain, I will not own this vehicle past the 100k CPO warranty.
I'd try and talk them into a long block if you can. As to owning the car off warranty, there are relatively few who can afford to maintain BMWs (especially F10 and larger) off warranty. The repair costs are too high and the cars are much too complex to be reliable as the mileage piles on and too expensive to repair when they break. That is why resale on the larger BMWs is so poor after 4 years. With respect to the OPs car, keep in mind that the working theory is a defective injector torpedo'd an engine with a repair cost of $25,000 plus the $4,000 of diagnostic repairs already done. If a long block is required, the total repair will have cost $35,000 +, which I'm sure is almost more than the value of the car.

There have been several threads about buying vs leasing with the guys who like to "own" saying guys who lease just do so because they can't afford to buy. I like to put my money into stuff that is increasing in value, not the other way around. I'd never own one of these cars for 100,000 miles and at .9% lease rate, I can decide if I want to purchase my car at lease end based on my service experience with the car.

Good luck with your repair and thankfully you have a COP with warranty.
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      12-27-2013, 08:31 PM   #24
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Grover - good point on lease vs. buy. My 335i was originally a lease and I decided to buy it out at the end of the lease. The car was in great shape, and it paid for me to keep it. Resale after 6 years and almost 100k miles is still strong, and ultimately it was a great financial decision as little to nothing went wrong with it - not even really any "minor" repairs to speak of outside of warranty. But I think that was more luck than anything. I see repair bills in the near future (some pinging starting to occur, etc) hence the decision to trade now.

That said, I think the Geico MBI option on my insurance really made me feel much more comfortable with having the car well after warranty. I may end up keeping the 550 after warranty, as well, if things are going well as I plan to have the MBI coverage on it, too.

The other way to look at repair costs after warranty is against the cost of purchasing a new car, too. I'm happy to tolerate a $1,000 or $2,000 a year in maintaining a paid-off car with a few minor repairs here and there... as buying (or leasing) a new one would certainly be more expensive. To me it's about finding that "sweet spot" where the residual value on the current car is still decent and just before REALLY major stuff may start piling up... then it's time to trade-up. I've kept the last two BMWs around 6 - 6.5 years and that worked out well... granted they were 3-series, though, which has a better resale value and much less issues, I believe, than a 5! We'll see!
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      12-27-2013, 11:32 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezmaass View Post
Grover - good point on lease vs. buy. My 335i was originally a lease and I decided to buy it out at the end of the lease. The car was in great shape, and it paid for me to keep it. Resale after 6 years and almost 100k miles is still strong, and ultimately it was a great financial decision as little to nothing went wrong with it - not even really any "minor" repairs to speak of outside of warranty. But I think that was more luck than anything. I see repair bills in the near future (some pinging starting to occur, etc) hence the decision to trade now.

That said, I think the Geico MBI option on my insurance really made me feel much more comfortable with having the car well after warranty. I may end up keeping the 550 after warranty, as well, if things are going well as I plan to have the MBI coverage on it, too.

The other way to look at repair costs after warranty is against the cost of purchasing a new car, too. I'm happy to tolerate a $1,000 or $2,000 a year in maintaining a paid-off car with a few minor repairs here and there... as buying (or leasing) a new one would certainly be more expensive. To me it's about finding that "sweet spot" where the residual value on the current car is still decent and just before REALLY major stuff may start piling up... then it's time to trade-up. I've kept the last two BMWs around 6 - 6.5 years and that worked out well... granted they were 3-series, though, which has a better resale value and much less issues, I believe, than a 5! We'll see!
There seems to be a big difference between 3 series resale and 5 series. I've had good luck reselling a 3 vs a 5 in the past. Probably because the 3 is less expensive to purchase than a 5 and sells in greater volume than a 5 (so more takers on the resale market).

I agree that there is a cost built into the purchase of a new car in place of repair costs on a used car, but I don't think you can predict whether a repair will be "major" or minor as the miles pile up. Take the current case - a leaking injector destroys an engine resulting in a $30,000 repair. For that kind of off warranty repair, I'd be better off making payments on a current model year car.

My current car is my 6th BMW. I've come to the conclusion that these cars (5 series)have poor resale value, have a tendency to cost allot if they break and are just plain expensive to own whether you lease or buy new, buy used. Having said that, I love driving them so I get a new one when the warranty runs out on the old one and I have a fixed expense and don't have any costs, worries or significant down time to worry about.
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      12-29-2013, 10:25 AM   #26
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This makes me crazy scared. I just purchased a '11 550i sDrive Msport roughly a month ago. It has about 43k miles on it now. It was listed as a CPO, but the previous owner had a set of Accelera brand tires and the dealer said that cancelled the CPO, and they did not want to spend the money on a new set of tires. So the car was heavily discounted, and sold with just the remaining original factory warranty. At the time the car was listed at the dealer, the CarFax did state CPO; not sure what is says since then. I haven't had much issues so far.
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      12-29-2013, 11:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hramdon View Post
This makes me crazy scared. I just purchased a '11 550i sDrive Msport roughly a month ago. It has about 43k miles on it now. It was listed as a CPO, but the previous owner had a set of Accelera brand tires and the dealer said that cancelled the CPO, and they did not want to spend the money on a new set of tires. So the car was heavily discounted, and sold with just the remaining original factory warranty. At the time the car was listed at the dealer, the CarFax did state CPO; not sure what is says since then. I haven't had much issues so far.
I'm not sure who makes the decision on CPO designation, BMW NA or the dealership. It's likely a combination, with BMW NA setting the guidelines in which the dealerships must abide to extend the CPO designation. I've heard the switching tires malarkey before from the dealership, and although they say "the car's suspension is tuned for run-flats", there's no way putting a more supple forgiving tire on the vehicle is a bad thing. Ultimately, BMW makes the rules, and can invalidate warranties or deny CPO coverage for whatever they want.

You may or may not have issues in the future, it's impossible to predict. What you can take away from my experience is, that if major mechanical issues befall you, the repair expense can be extreme.

Hopefully good fortune is on your side.
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      12-31-2013, 04:53 PM   #28
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My SA sent me "progress" pictures to ring in the new year...
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      01-02-2014, 04:06 PM   #29
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WOW. Happy New Year? I guess....?

Hope this all works out for you. I would be on that SA like white on rice my friend....
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      01-02-2014, 08:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzbullseye View Post
My SA sent me "progress" pictures to ring in the new year...
While I guess you have no choice, looking at all of those parts, I'd be happier with a crate engine. You have to wonder if they can put Humpty Dumpty together again!
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      01-03-2014, 10:41 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by BMWJester5oS View Post
WOW. Happy New Year? I guess....?

Hope this all works out for you. I would be on that SA like white on rice my friend....
Thanks. My SA and the dealership have been cool about the whole thing. I suppose it could be because this is ultimately a warranty issue, but I've always had good service from Autohaus (can't speak for others). The only issue I've had was related to wheels being lightly scratched during a tire install - and I think I only caught blowback on it because I hadn't actually purchased the tires from the dealership, and by policy they only mount tires they sell, but the SA was doing me a solid and having them mounted while I was in for other service.

It's been a bit of an elongated process to determine the problem and get the repairs done, but in reality, I would expect this with something like a bent rod...there's not really a fault code for "bent rod"...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grover432 View Post
While I guess you have no choice, looking at all of those parts, I'd be happier with a crate engine. You have to wonder if they can put Humpty Dumpty together again!
I'm hoping for the best, but time will ultimately tell. I'm comforted in the fact that I'm at least starting with a brand new short block as a complete unit, and not just having the internals of the engine pieced back together along with a new rod.
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      01-03-2014, 11:28 AM   #32
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Wow... that's a lot of "stuff" all over the floor! It may just be a mental thing for me, but I think I'd get the car back and sell it ASAP. Even if they get humpty back together again, there may still be a difference in it "working" versus "performing." Or maybe I'm just being too cautious about it. Either way, it looks like a big job, and I'm curious to see how it all turns out!
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      01-03-2014, 02:51 PM   #33
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Details from the latest conversation with my SA...apparently the stuck injector and bent rod theory was incorrect. Upon removing the piston and rod, they found no deformation of the rod itself. The SA indicated that the original height measurement they performed was done through the spark plug hole and turned out not to be accurate. What they did find was that all the rings on the piston had rotated so the gaps in the rings were in alignment with each other (normally the gaps should be staggered) - thus allowing the loss of compression. The alignment of the gaps occurred because the cylinder wall was out of round by a small amount (1/2000th I think he said) - evidently the result of a manufacturing defect at the factory.

Ultimately the result is the same, BMW will determine whether to replace with a short or long block. My SA indicated that due to a shortage of head bolts on the North American continent (they can't reuse the old ones because the bolts stretch upon initial tightening), BMW may lean towards replacing with the long block as it includes the bolts in the pre-assembled unit.

I should know their decision early next week...
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      01-03-2014, 09:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzbullseye View Post
Details from the latest conversation with my SA...apparently the stuck injector and bent rod theory was incorrect. Upon removing the piston and rod, they found no deformation of the rod itself. The SA indicated that the original height measurement they performed was done through the spark plug hole and turned out not to be accurate. What they did find was that all the rings on the piston had rotated so the gaps in the rings were in alignment with each other (normally the gaps should be staggered) - thus allowing the loss of compression. The alignment of the gaps occurred because the cylinder wall was out of round by a small amount (1/2000th I think he said) - evidently the result of a manufacturing defect at the factory.

Ultimately the result is the same, BMW will determine whether to replace with a short or long block. My SA indicated that due to a shortage of head bolts on the North American continent (they can't reuse the old ones because the bolts stretch upon initial tightening), BMW may lean towards replacing with the long block as it includes the bolts in the pre-assembled unit.

I should know their decision early next week...
I doubt they'd replace with a long block vs a short block because of scarce bolts in NA. They can be shipped overnight from Germany for $100.00. Of course if they are in short supply in Germany ....

Its hard to know if they have the correct diagnosis now, but given that they are replacing the engine, I guess it doesn't matter. I'm a bit concerned that they couldn't do the initial measurement correctly, makes me wonder what else they can't do right. Good luck though.
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      01-04-2014, 12:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grover432 View Post
I doubt they'd replace with a long block vs a short block because of scarce bolts in NA. They can be shipped overnight from Germany for $100.00. Of course if they are in short supply in Germany ....

Its hard to know if they have the correct diagnosis now, but given that they are replacing the engine, I guess it doesn't matter. I'm a bit concerned that they couldn't do the initial measurement correctly, makes me wonder what else they can't do right. Good luck though.
I'm not sure measuring the height of the piston through the spark plug hole is ever going to be deadly accurate, and I wouldn't see this as an indictment of the mechanic's ability... I suspect there was really no way of knowing for sure what the issue was until they pulled the head and yanked the piston. They were searching for clues prior to that to see if they could avoid full breakdown of the engine.

I guess by nature I'm not quite as suspicious of mechanics as some. I think my description of this saga, twice removed from the mechanics mouth, may lead one to believe the diagnosis path has been one of throwing ideas against the wall to see what sticks. I really think (perhaps wishfully so..) the work done so far, has progressed with a more direct plan of attack than just random measuring, poking, prodding and twisting of wrenches. I have to believe this situation is somewhat unusual in nature...I mean how many engines leave the factory in Germany with one of the cylinders out of round? I wouldn't think many. So, by process of elimination, it took awhile to get to the heart of the problem.

I asked my SA point blank about his confidence level in the mechanic's ability to accurately reassemble all the constituent pieces of the engine not included with the short or long block kits. He indicated that he was very confident. I'd like to believe I received an honest, candid opinion, but I suppose he could be telling me what I want to hear.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and ultimately, time will tell if the repairs to be made will prove successful or not.
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      01-09-2014, 09:21 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzbullseye View Post
I'm not sure measuring the height of the piston through the spark plug hole is ever going to be deadly accurate
Well, if if it isn't possible to accurately measure to diagnose the problem, why bother taking the measurement in the first place.

In any event, I'm sure they'll get your car back together and running just fine.
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      01-09-2014, 09:44 AM   #37
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In 2001, I had the selling dealer replace the short block on my E34 530i (a 3-liter V8 for those who may not remember). It was a struggle from beginning to end. The car was a bit unusual even back then in that it was a 5-speed MT. The dealer's service department lacked the tools to work on it; they borrowed some and broke them, and then got their own -- an engine stand, in particular, since the dual-mass flywheel that goes with the MT was fatter than the one for the AT version and wouldn't fit in the regular stand. In the end, with everything back together, the car would pop out of 2nd and 4th gears under acceleration. Since those two gears are in the same plane in the shift pattern (the one where pulling the shift lever toward the back pushes the forks forward toward the engine) I was convinced that components had gone back together wrong or misaligned. The dealer steadfastly denied this, and the proposed cure was a new transmission.
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      01-09-2014, 10:28 AM   #38
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I keep my cars away from the dealer as much as possible - all cars, all brands, not just BMWs. I refuse any software "update" and I keep my fingers crossed that the "techs" will not touch anything else when they are repairing whatever it is they are repairing under warranty, which is the only time I let them touch my cars.

I know one thing: if there is room for a ****up they sure manage to find it. These guys are guessing most of the time when they declare that this or that is in need of fixing or replacing.

This is not the first time I've known of something super simple like this battery replacement escalating into a multi-thousand dollar repair under warranty. The dealer will never admit that this was their mistake so of course the simple battery replacement and software update they performed initially had nothing to do with all the subsequent check engine lights and serial part replacement activities . . . yeah, right.

BTW, the rings aligning to cause the low compression reading is also a monumental guess and IMO complete BS. A cylinder "out of round" by 1/2000ths?
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      01-09-2014, 06:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1HOT BMR View Post
I keep my cars away from the dealer as much as possible - all cars, all brands, not just BMWs. I refuse any software "update" and I keep my fingers crossed that the "techs" will not touch anything else when they are repairing whatever it is they are repairing under warranty, which is the only time I let them touch my cars.

I know one thing: if there is room for a ****up they sure manage to find it. These guys are guessing most of the time when they declare that this or that is in need of fixing or replacing.

This is not the first time I've known of something super simple like this battery replacement escalating into a multi-thousand dollar repair under warranty. The dealer will never admit that this was their mistake so of course the simple battery replacement and software update they performed initially had nothing to do with all the subsequent check engine lights and serial part replacement activities . . . yeah, right.

BTW, the rings aligning to cause the low compression reading is also a monumental guess and IMO complete BS. A cylinder "out of round" by 1/2000ths?
Your pithy commentary has swayed my opinion...I'm now convinced this is all an elaborate ruse to cover up a battery replacement gone horribly awry. If only I could have been lucky enough to stumble into the one dealership in the universe that actually employs a mechanic with the talent to competently change a battery - wait...that doesn't exist... Damn the devil, DAMN THE DEVIL TO HELL!!!

Anyone else want to join the "dealerships are evil and crooked, and all mechanics are incompetent morons" bandwagon..?

It took awhile, but the anti-dealership crowd finally made an appearance..
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      01-09-2014, 08:11 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
In 2001, I had the selling dealer replace the short block on my E34 530i (a 3-liter V8 for those who may not remember). It was a struggle from beginning to end. The car was a bit unusual even back then in that it was a 5-speed MT. The dealer's service department lacked the tools to work on it; they borrowed some and broke them, and then got their own -- an engine stand, in particular, since the dual-mass flywheel that goes with the MT was fatter than the one for the AT version and wouldn't fit in the regular stand. In the end, with everything back together, the car would pop out of 2nd and 4th gears under acceleration. Since those two gears are in the same plane in the shift pattern (the one where pulling the shift lever toward the back pushes the forks forward toward the engine) I was convinced that components had gone back together wrong or misaligned. The dealer steadfastly denied this, and the proposed cure was a new transmission.
I have to agree with the dealer. The transmission internals aren't touched when a short block is replaced. The bell housing is disconnected from the engine block, clutch flywheel, pressure plate and clutch plate are removed with all that stuff being re attached after the shortblock is swapped. Can't see how the internal operation of the vehicle is affected unless somehow the shift tower wasn't aligned on the top of the transmission when everything went back together, which is unlikely as I'm betting there are alignment pins. Who knows though ...
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      01-09-2014, 11:58 PM   #41
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I have to agree with the dealer. The transmission internals aren't touched when a short block is replaced. The bell housing is disconnected from the engine block, clutch flywheel, pressure plate and clutch plate are removed with all that stuff being re attached after the shortblock is swapped. Can't see how the internal operation of the vehicle is affected unless somehow the shift tower wasn't aligned on the top of the transmission when everything went back together, which is unlikely as I'm betting there are alignment pins. Who knows though ...
Who knows indeed? So much had gone wrong with this job that I had lost confidence, and the misalignment theory seemed adequate to explain the symptoms. Plus, as the dealer, I would much rather sell a transmission than eat one.
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      01-15-2014, 09:57 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by zzzbullseye View Post
My SA sent me "progress" pictures to ring in the new year...
Is the car back together yet??
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      01-15-2014, 10:47 AM   #43
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Is the car back together yet??
I'm waiting as well, hopefully to hear what the real story is to this very strange episode.

I'm not sure I go along with the reasoning surrounding the piston issue.

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      01-16-2014, 08:12 AM   #44
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Quote:
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Is the car back together yet??
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I'm waiting as well, hopefully to hear what the real story is to this very strange episode.

I'm not sure I go along with the reasoning surrounding the piston issue.

HighlandPete

Late last week my SA informed me BMW made the decision to send only the block and new piston heads vice sending complete short or long blocks. I haven't gotten a progress update so far this week, but the predicted completion date for repairs was sometime next week.

Before the howling masses launch into opinionated diatribes about "I would've made them send me a new engine..", or "I woulda told those assholes...blah, blah, blah..." I (and for the most part, the dealership) have no real ability to influence how BMW chooses to resolve the issue via warranty. The dealership can give their opinion, but ultimately, it's up to the discretion of BMW. I would have preferred a complete long block engine replacement, but unfortunately, that's not the route BMW chose to take.

Time will tell whether the repairs are successful or not...
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