[slingxshot]

BMW are great cars but the thought of never going to a gas station ever again, instant torque, etc

I read that BMW is not planning for a fully electric till 2019?

So I will seriously consider Tesla 3 around 2017 time frame when my lease is ending. Hopefully it will be available by then. The only way I won't buy if it is hideous, but I highly doubt it will be.

Anyone had similar thoughts?

[ezmaass]

No. Unless it was going to be a toy, I wouldn't be comfortable buying a fully electric car at this point - at least not for my lifestyle. I need to actually drive my car places, sometimes on lengthy business trips. "Range Anxiety" is what they call the new ailment for Tesla drivers, which keeps them from just living life and going where they want. You'll notice that a fair number of Tesla owners have multiple other gasoline powered cars in their garages, and used Teslas are selling with far fewer than the average miles driven on them. There's a reason behind it.

If you're trolling around town, and you rarely, if ever, need to drive anywhere of any significant distance, then I'm sure you can make it work. But the reality is that there are some big problems still for fully electric cars:

1. Range - Tesla has respectable distance, but not respectable enough for most Americans to feel comfortable. Imagine getting stuck in terrible holiday traffic just going end-to-end on the island (happens to me often when visiting family there) and fearing you won't make it - can't just pull over at any gas station.

2. Charging Time - even with Tesla's superchargers, time is just too long. As density of electrics goes up, charging stations won't be able to keep up. If the average charging time was 10x longer than filling up for gas, you'd need 10x the number of gas stations to meet the current demand if we were all to drive electric cars some day. Likewise, it assume you've got nothing but time on your hands to pull over on I-95 on the way up to Boston at a supercharger and hang out for an hour or so.

3. Environment - ironically, many proponents of electrics claim it's to save the planet from fossil fuel burning. Meanwhile, the batteries in these cars are completely toxic, and there's no truly safe way to dispose of them without them leaking into our soil and drinking water.

Aside from the "generic" problems with electrics, the Model S is a complete disappointment... don't know what better we can expect from a smaller sibling yet. This a $100k car (when decently loaded) that failed to come with memory seats, lighted vanity mirrors, and other basic functions that your low-end Kia might have.

Meanwhile, the "look at me" gigantic touchscreen in the middle of the car, while impressive in functionality, is a huge eyesore that blinds the driver at night. Try planting an iPad (or something even larger, in fact) in your center console and driving with it for a length of time at night - ugh. No less, I think they forgot to talk to someone with User Experience skills. The damn thing has no buttons, and nearly EVERYTHING in the car is controlled through it. So, you want to adjust the temperature in the car while you're flying down the driveway? Good luck doing that by just reaching out and grabbing a knob or pressing a button that you can feel - you're going to take your eyes off the road and use fine motor skills to make sure you're touching the right part of the screen for nearly everything. Safety hazard perhaps?

Look, I'm glad Tesla is great American company, and Musk is an impressive guy with great intentions. But I think their cars are science experiments that are better suited for people who truly don't drive much, very far, or have other options to do so. I also think they really need to work on the basics - these cars are expensive, commanding a premium, but they're nowhere near the quality of what you get from comparable luxury makers in the price range.

Additionally, it's going to be a while (maybe a LONG while) before range anxiety isn't a problem - and that means breakthroughs in battery technology, charging times, and build-out of LOTS of infrastructure. For all we know, electric cars may be the betamax of automobiles - there's still plenty of R&D going towards technologies like fuel cells, which are clean, no toxic battery, compatible with existing infrastructure with little retrofitting, same with combustion engines, etc. It's very early to tell, and there's lots of gambling going on.

So, buy an electric car for the novelty because that's about all it's good for at the moment. There's no true practicality yet - you can't make a TCO case (they're more expensive even after gasoline costs), they're intrusive on your life (requiring you to install chargers in your garage for ideal charging time, finding charging stations while out, etc), toxic for the environment, etc, etc, etc.

[martin mustang]

Good luck in 5 years when your battery need changing, just like the rechargeable batteries on your phone, your journey will shrink to accommodate the low capacity your battery will be able to handle! With hybrid you still have the option to go back to good old petrol!
Oh yes let me add this, I believe electric cars and the environment argument are simply the biggest scam on earth today!

[AP]

My view is that Electric is a niche area. I can see it has its place but I personally see as an interim step with Hydrogen fuel cells as being the longer term future.

For electric you need to charge up and the issue is where you can charge the car (and the time it takes). the infrastructure that would need to be set up would just be too expensive. Not everybody has their own garage or drive. Many people may have to park on the road and it would be too expensive to put charging points at everywhere.

Hydrogen Fuel cells however would work in a similar way to petrol today, you go to a filling station and after a couple of minutes, you are filled up.
You'd use the car in exactly the same way as you do a petrol one today, running low, got a filling station.
Obviously that infrastructure needs to be set up but I really see that's really the workable solution going forward.

Just my opinion, not saying electric is bad, just has its limitations and I feel the car industry would be better placed to invest in hydrogen instead.

Not sure where BMW are these days with Hydrogen fuel cells, I know they had some prototype 7 series some time back, not sure where they are with that now.

[The Beast]

Agree with both points, not sold on electric and just transfers the carbon production from the car to a powerstation especially in the UK as we don't have many nuclear/sustainable options. However there have been recent developments in battery technology which will vastly increase capacity and decrease charge times. So I'm not totally discounting electric cars but I wouldn't have one until the technology improves considerably.

Hydrogen sounds great in principle, however the fuel is very combustible and it would be very expensive creating a supply network. Need to find a way of localising production imo to make hydrogen a viable option.

[slingxshot]

All of you guys are kind of wrong on this. I follow Tesla a lot of closer than the general public, plus I follow Tesla owners and what they say.

1. Couple of points I want to clear up. A Tesla owner I follow on youtube, he drove 50,000K miles and he said he lost only some 2% of charge.

2. Elon Musk said his battery range is about 500,000 miles and that will degrade it to only 80% charge.

3. On Tesla web site, they say 98% of populated areas will be covered by super chargers in 2015.

4. Tesla is slowly rolling out swappable battery super charger stations. This is done under two minutes, you come to a stop, a platform from the bottom takes out the old battery and swaps in a new one. This is not free, I think 80$ or so but if you are in a hurry, this is faster than filling up a gas tank.

5. Every Tesla owner loves the gigantic screen. No one is complaining about having no buttons.

6. Also I want to make a huge point about Traffic but the 1st poster made a huge mistake because he is still in that "gas" car thinking. First the car has regenerative breaking that will keep the battery charging when you go and stop traffic. Second point this is an electric motor, it doesn't need to be Idling... when you make a stop you are at 0RPM.

7. From what I heard. When you set the NAV in the Tesla, it will try to plot the route along super charger stations. And if you are not, then what I hear if the car knows that it will not make it to destination without a charge, it will suggest the closest super charger station. Also from what I read its very difficult to kill the battery, the car will go through several warnings levels, battery saving modes until it completely dies.

[Axxlrod]

You need to keep researching. So of those points just aren't true, like #4. That is just an idea that Tesla has. Just because they did it once to prove it can be done, doesn't mean they will roll it out.

I don't have a Tesla, but my father does. P85+ model. I drive it quite often. Even put a dedicated 40amp charging plug in my garage for it.

It does drive quite nice. It's the quickest car I've ever driven... and I've driven some hot cars.

But he does get "range anxiety". Whenever he goes on a road trip, he has to plan it out thoroughly. At if he stays in a hotel, he has to call ahead and inquire about charging points if a supercharger is not located nearby.

He almost ran out of charge once. Made it to the hawthorne supercharger with less than 2 miles of charge remaining. After that, my mother insisted they take her lexus when they travel out of town from then on.

So, its a great commuter car, but def not a great road trip car.

[SonicEndeavor]

Originally Posted by slingxshot

BMW are great cars but the thought of never going to a gas station ever again, instant torque, etc

I read that BMW is not planning for a fully electric till 2019?

So I will seriously consider Tesla 3 around 2017 time frame when my lease is ending. Hopefully it will be available by then. The only way I won't buy if it is hideous, but I highly doubt it will be.

Anyone had similar thoughts?

The i3 is already here. You have the option of buying a purely electric version or adding the optional range extender gas engine.

[SonicEndeavor]

Originally Posted by ezmaass

3. Environment - ironically, many proponents of electrics claim it's to save the planet from fossil fuel burning. Meanwhile, the batteries in these cars are completely toxic, and there's no truly safe way to dispose of them without them leaking into our soil and drinking water.

Sounds like something right out of the oil industry climate deniers handbook.
It's completely untrue. The batteries are 98% recyclable and it takes FAR less energy and creates FAR less CO2 to create and use a battery pack than an associated internal combustion engine that subsequently dumps literally tons of CO2 (6 tons per 15,000 miles for a 550i) into the environment on an ongoing basis.

[Noggie]

Norway is electric car Mecca.
There are no import tax, no road tax, no toll road fee, free ferries, and you can drive in the bus lane, and there is "free fuel everywhere"

The tax break, or lack of tax means you get a car with super saloon performance at a fraction of the price. I.e a third of an M5.
As a result they are everywhere.

All good then....... Well.......

I have been in the P85 top version..... It is fast, very fast, to about 70mph, then the grunt runs out, but that's fine for daily use.
Range is good, more than enough to cover 90% of my usage.

Will I buy one, not a chance........
On the outside it looks good. Very nice design.

On the inside, I'll be honest, it sucks.
The interior design is on par with a Hyundai, with a huge ugly iPad in the middle to control everything, and the build quality of a europeean Ford without any storage room. Not even a center console!!!!!
To be honest, the inside of the car completely turned me off the whole car.
The seats are crap, no side support what so ever, and as adjustable as in my old E30.
Tesla has brought out new seats this year, so they are improving though.

Then they launched the new 4wd version and Norway went nuts.
From an average of less than 20 used cars for sale it jumped to 160 cars in a week.
Everyone wants the new car, and the prices are plummeting at the moment.

So no, I will drive around in my BMW and despite its flaws, enjoy a car with a build and material quality far far superior to what Tesla can offer, and I can live with my car not being as quick to 60mph.

[slingxshot]

Originally Posted by Axxlrod

You need to keep researching. So of those points just aren't true, like #4. That is just an idea that Tesla has. Just because they did it once to prove it can be done, doesn't mean they will roll it out.

I don't have a Tesla, but my father does. P85+ model. I drive it quite often. Even put a dedicated 40amp charging plug in my garage for it.

It does drive quite nice. It's the quickest car I've ever driven... and I've driven some hot cars.

But he does get "range anxiety". Whenever he goes on a road trip, he has to plan it out thoroughly. At if he stays in a hotel, he has to call ahead and inquire about charging points if a supercharger is not located nearby.

He almost ran out of charge once. Made it to the hawthorne supercharger with less than 2 miles of charge remaining. After that, my mother insisted they take her lexus when they travel out of town from then on.

So, its a great commuter car, but def not a great road trip car.

I follow Every musk interview. in a recent interview he said he just started installing them.

[ezmaass]

Originally Posted by slingxshot

All of you guys are kind of wrong on this. I follow Tesla a lot of closer than the general public, plus I follow Tesla owners and what they say.

1. Couple of points I want to clear up. A Tesla owner I follow on youtube, he drove 50,000K miles and he said he lost only some 2% of charge.

2. Elon Musk said his battery range is about 500,000 miles and that will degrade it to only 80% charge.

3. On Tesla web site, they say 98% of populated areas will be covered by super chargers in 2015.

4. Tesla is slowly rolling out swappable battery super charger stations. This is done under two minutes, you come to a stop, a platform from the bottom takes out the old battery and swaps in a new one. This is not free, I think 80$ or so but if you are in a hurry, this is faster than filling up a gas tank.

5. Every Tesla owner loves the gigantic screen. No one is complaining about having no buttons.

6. Also I want to make a huge point about Traffic but the 1st poster made a huge mistake because he is still in that "gas" car thinking. First the car has regenerative breaking that will keep the battery charging when you go and stop traffic. Second point this is an electric motor, it doesn't need to be Idling... when you make a stop you are at 0RPM.

7. From what I heard. When you set the NAV in the Tesla, it will try to plot the route along super charger stations. And if you are not, then what I hear if the car knows that it will not make it to destination without a charge, it will suggest the closest super charger station. Also from what I read its very difficult to kill the battery, the car will go through several warnings levels, battery saving modes until it completely dies.

1 & 2 - Find me a Tesla with 500k miles on it, and we'll see. I have no doubt Tesla is sourcing some great battery technology, but to be honest, this doesn't sound remotely possible. Never the less, it won't matter - the rest of the car won't last long enough for rack up 500k miles.

3. You need to ask what it means to have "coverage." Elon's definition, at least when I've heard him speak about it in the past, has been the ability to get from station to station - such as their original goal to get across country. The fact is, you're not going to travel from station to station. You're going to be traveling in all sorts of different directions as you drive. So, what ultimately matters is DENSITY of charging stations. While there are more places to charge an electric car in metro areas, they're still very few and far between. Travel outside of those areas, and you're SOL. That's fine if you buy a Tesla for commuting and have a petrol car for other trips.

4. I've seen the stock holder conference where Elon demonstrated the battery swapping technology. Great idea, but still ridiculously stupid. Take a look at how large the battery packs are on those cars. MASSIVE. It's the entire underside. Now take a look at how many cars go through a single gas station in a 24 hour period. You'd need a giant warehouse-sized facility under ground to deal with that kind of volume. So where are we building these football sized stations?

Better yet, which independent companies would be willing to build stations that are unique to Tesla technology? An electric filling station can fill any brand car. But one that swaps batteries? Well, that's going to be proprietary.

And even if we wanted to forgive those above points, what about ownership of the battery? This is arguably one of the most expensive parts of the car... and you wouldn't maintain ownership of it. What if you swapped your battery at filling station and got one that was damaged by someone else?

The issues with this are, in my opinion, even more difficult to overcome than just working on quicker charge times and higher capacity batteries.

5. The large center screen may be cool, and I honestly believe you're right about all Tesla OWNERS loving it... after all, they bought the car, didn't they? That fact still doesn't make it a great (or safe) idea. That's like saying all purple VW beetle owners love purple VW beetles, and therefore they must be great.

6. Regenerative braking isn't magical. Regenerative braking is simply a way to recoup SOME of the energy already expended in making the car go in the first place. I don't see how this is an argument countering the fact that these cars have limited range. And sitting at 0 RPM doesn't mean anything if you hope to keep heat, air conditioning, or other luxuries running while in bumper to bumper traffic.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against finding better ways to do things. I'm in technology as a profession. But I'm not convinced that THIS technology is ready for prime time yet. Hence, why most Tesla owners have 2nd and 3rd cars. It's a toy right now.

[NewM3driver]

I have a friend that has one. Ive driven it. Its fast. Interior quality is that of a toyota. Screen is ugly as sin. Personally, i hate the golf cart silence. It may be good for some... definitely NOT for me.

[slingxshot]

Originally Posted by ezmaass

1 & 2 - Find me a Tesla with 500k miles on it, and we'll see. I have no doubt Tesla is sourcing some great battery technology, but to be honest, this doesn't sound remotely possible. Never the less, it won't matter - the rest of the car won't last long enough for rack up 500k miles.

Elon Musk said, when he was rolling out cars in Europe that they tested the battery and pushed one of their cars to 500K miles, most likely on a test bed thought. Second most people change their cars around 100-150K miles. Tesla owners with more than 50K miles are still loving their car.

3. You need to ask what it means to have "coverage." Elon's definition, at least when I've heard him speak about it in the past, has been the ability to get from station to station - such as their original goal to get across country. The fact is, you're not going to travel from station to station. You're going to be traveling in all sorts of different directions as you drive. So, what ultimately matters is DENSITY of charging stations. While there are more places to charge an electric car in metro areas, they're still very few and far between. Travel outside of those areas, and you're SOL. That's fine if you buy a Tesla for commuting and have a petrol car for other trips.



4. I've seen the stock holder conference where Elon demonstrated the battery swapping technology. Great idea, but still ridiculously stupid. Take a look at how large the battery packs are on those cars. MASSIVE. It's the entire underside. Now take a look at how many cars go through a single gas station in a 24 hour period. You'd need a giant warehouse-sized facility under ground to deal with that kind of volume. So where are we building these football sized stations?

Answer to 3 and 4 He mentioned that the system is designed to borrow the battery then eventually pick it up. Also when you are talking about a factory of batteries, when the last time you saw a gas station with 200 cars? May be during sandy hurricane? He said by 2015 he will have 98% of population, but his Tesla 3 car won't be around till 2017. It doesn't mean he will stop building more stations to accommodate more of his cars. And second of all those super chargers are free, why complain?

Also I want to add. I follow Tesla owners (since I am interested in real life opinions) The fact is the people who work within 50 miles, which is majority of people, like the fact they never had to go to a gas station. One mentioned that he even forgot that the gas stations exist and that he got rid of his second car. He said that it was a mistake to keep the second car.

here is a youtube video of the owners:

Better yet, which independent companies would be willing to build stations that are unique to Tesla technology? An electric filling station can fill any brand car. But one that swaps batteries? Well, that's going to be proprietary.

And even if we wanted to forgive those above points, what about ownership of the battery? This is arguably one of the most expensive parts of the car... and you wouldn't maintain ownership of it. What if you swapped your battery at filling station and got one that was damaged by someone else?

The issues with this are, in my opinion, even more difficult to overcome than just working on quicker charge times and higher capacity batteries.

5. The large center screen may be cool, and I honestly believe you're right about all Tesla OWNERS loving it... after all, they bought the car, didn't they? That fact still doesn't make it a great (or safe) idea. That's like saying all purple VW beetle owners love purple VW beetles, and therefore they must be great.

You are assuming that. You are not an owner.

6. Regenerative braking isn't magical. Regenerative braking is simply a way to recoup SOME of the energy already expended in making the car go in the first place. I don't see how this is an argument countering the fact that these cars have limited range. And sitting at 0 RPM doesn't mean anything if you hope to keep heat, air conditioning, or other luxuries running while in bumper to bumper traffic.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against finding better ways to do things. I'm in technology as a profession. But I'm not convinced that THIS technology is ready for prime time yet. Hence, why most Tesla owners have 2nd and 3rd cars. It's a toy right now.

I know BMW has Stop Start engine tech, but it is the most annoying $h1t. The engine vibration + the delay. With electric engines, you don't need that, no need to idle. There is huge saving in your engine @ 0RPM.

Answers in the quote in bold.

[slingxshot]

I want to say to all the people who posted here. Combustion engine is horrible and crude, dirty, tech that hasn't changed in more than 100 years. When electric cars will be mass produced and you guys are driving your BMW, the view from people who will drive electric cars and never have to use a gas station will be looked as 'Horse Buggies'.

Also, may be people here take 1-2 hours to get to work, but it takes 15 minutes for me to get to work (7 miles). An electric car is a great. With a gas car, with all the local driving... I waste a lot of gas.

[Noggie]

Originally Posted by slingxshot

I want to say to all the people who posted here. Combustion engine is horrible and crude, dirty, tech that hasn't changed in more than 100 years. When electric cars will be mass produced and you guys are driving your BMW, the view from people who will drive electric cars and never have to use a gas station will be looked as 'Horse Buggies'.

Also, may be people here take 1-2 hours to get to work, but it takes 15 minutes for me to get to work (7 miles). An electric car is a great. With a gas car, with all the local driving... I waste a lot of gas.

I don't think we hate electric cars, electric cars are the future, no doubt.
However, cars like the i3, vw e-up , Nissan leaf and such small cars are affordable electric cars for the masses.
The tesla is a good way to get a select few pay for the development of future electric cars.
Funny that no other large manufacturers have brought out anything like the tesla, all going for smaller cars.
Something like an i3 would cover most my daily needs, and that would be the kind of electric car I would look at.

If tesla wants to play with the big boys, they need to do more than make a car that is fast, they have to step it up and get everything up to the premium car level, but I guess that would make it too expensive.
Who knows, in 10 years they might be there.

As of now, they have made a fast car that in my country is bought by people who has never had a car with more than 150hp and they are loving it, because they have never been used to the feel of a premium car, and now has one with proper power.
Others ( rich people) buy them for the environmental image it provides.

[slingxshot]

Originally Posted by Noggie

I don't think we hate electric cars, electric cars are the future, no doubt.
However, cars like the i3, vw e-up , Nissan leaf and such small cars are affordable electric cars for the masses.
The tesla is a good way to get a select few pay for the development of future electric cars.
Funny that no other large manufacturers have brought out anything like the tesla, all going for smaller cars.
Something like an i3 would cover most my daily needs, and that would be the kind of electric car I would look at.

If tesla wants to play with the big boys, they need to do more than make a car that is fast, they have to step it up and get everything up to the premium car level, but I guess that would make it too expensive.
Who knows, in 10 years they might be there.

As of now, they have made a fast car that in my country is bought by people who has never had a car with more than 150hp and they are loving it, because they have never been used to the feel of a premium car, and now has one with proper power.
Others ( rich people) buy them for the environmental image it provides.

"However, cars like the i3, vw e-up , Nissan leaf and such small cars are affordable electric cars for the masses."

Those cars are a joke and i3 is insanely ugly.

[ezmaass]

Originally Posted by slingxshot

I want to say to all the people who posted here. Combustion engine is horrible and crude, dirty, tech that hasn't changed in more than 100 years. When electric cars will be mass produced and you guys are driving your BMW, the view from people who will drive electric cars and never have to use a gas station will be looked as 'Horse Buggies'.

Also, may be people here take 1-2 hours to get to work, but it takes 15 minutes for me to get to work (7 miles). An electric car is a great. With a gas car, with all the local driving... I waste a lot of gas.

Topics like this aren't black and white - one is right, the other is wrong. That's naive. And technology that's 100 years old is 100 years old for a reason - it works, it scales, and it's been very difficult to replace with something "better." So, before trashing combustion engines as horrible, crude, dirty, and "horse and buggy" legacies, consider those facts.

Also, consider the fact that nothing is "free" - and the economics of electric cars don't YET make sense. That's a big problem. The government is still heavily subsidizing electric cars with massive tax credits. Why? Because the economics don't work. You can buy 4 "average" cars for the price of a Tesla. Two "average" cars for the price of the "cheap" electric cars out there. So, if one of the big goals is to make it financially attractive as an alternative to high fuel prices, the argument is broken. You can buy fuel for 5 years on a cheaper petrol car that gets respectable mileage and still be nowhere near the cost of an electric. For the average consumer, the TCO would need to be equal or LESS than an equivalent petrol option.

And as I said earlier, if saving the planet is the goal, there's still wild debate about how electrics help or hinder there. Is cost of construction efficient? Can batteries be safely disposed of, especially if the majority of the world was driving one? A lot of smart people are debating these topics today and there's no clear answer. Quoting Elon Musk isn't a valid response here either - he's nowhere near an unbiased authority. There are plenty of university studies and unaffiliated third parties actively debating this today.

As Noggie said, nobody is "hating" on electric cars - or Tesla. I think you're hearing some realistic responses, though. It's an early technology - it may or may not succeed long term. Is electric the final destination for vehicle energy? I don't know. It could just as easily be hydrogen. Do some research. It's not always the technology in the "early lead" that ends up winning out... more times than not it's the technology the can be most easily assimilated into society. In our case, we have many millions of combustion cars on the road, fuel supply systems, filling stations, etc - a technology that can leverage that ecosystem while delivering better economics to the consumer would be a clear winner over one that demands throwing it all out and doing a full-on rip-and-replace. And maybe electric is where it ends up, regardless - who knows.

Either way, if YOU feel it's the right decision for YOU, so be it - go buy it. It's a personal choice. You don't need to justify it to anyone here... but nor do they need to agree it's a great decision.

[bayarea328xit]

Think about the power source for cars on a continuum.

Gas only
- higher energy density (travel range/(kg of gasoline+engine+transmission))
- more complex mechanical system (rotary engine + mechanical coupling to drive train)

Electric only
- lower energy density (travel range/(kg of battery+motor+drive train))
- less complex mechanical system (electric motor driven drive train)

The energy density point is important -- you are spending more energy moving the battery+motor around as you drive in an electric only car than you are moving the gasoline+engine+transmission around as you drive in a gas only car.

Somewhere in between, we have the option of having the less complex mechanical system of an electric only drive train with a smaller battery plus a less complex gas engine (non-rotary engine?) to charge the battery.

Keeping in mind that the gas infrastructure is already in place, it is hard for me to imagine that the optimal solution is on one (electric only) end of the continuum. Charging at home overnight plus topping off on gas when needed seems like the way to go. Simplifying the gas engine to the minimum of what is needed to charge the (smaller) battery seems like the best path forward.

If the optimal solution is somewhere in between (and it is a big if), Tesla is in a jam -- will they turn back on all their PR and admit that they need a dual source car?

[grimlock]

^Brilliant.

I believe gas and electric charging infrastructure can coexist as they fulfill two seperate needs. Gas won't die quickly because new engines keep getting more efficient.. it might take half a century or more to die out.

[slingxshot]

Originally Posted by ezmaass

Topics like this aren't black and white - one is right, the other is wrong. That's naive. And technology that's 100 years old is 100 years old for a reason - it works, it scales, and it's been very difficult to replace with something "better." So, before trashing combustion engines as horrible, crude, dirty, and "horse and buggy" legacies, consider those facts.

Also, consider the fact that nothing is "free" - and the economics of electric cars don't YET make sense. That's a big problem. The government is still heavily subsidizing electric cars with massive tax credits. Why? Because the economics don't work. You can buy 4 "average" cars for the price of a Tesla. Two "average" cars for the price of the "cheap" electric cars out there. So, if one of the big goals is to make it financially attractive as an alternative to high fuel prices, the argument is broken. You can buy fuel for 5 years on a cheaper petrol car that gets respectable mileage and still be nowhere near the cost of an electric. For the average consumer, the TCO would need to be equal or LESS than an equivalent petrol option.

And as I said earlier, if saving the planet is the goal, there's still wild debate about how electrics help or hinder there. Is cost of construction efficient? Can batteries be safely disposed of, especially if the majority of the world was driving one? A lot of smart people are debating these topics today and there's no clear answer. Quoting Elon Musk isn't a valid response here either - he's nowhere near an unbiased authority. There are plenty of university studies and unaffiliated third parties actively debating this today.

As Noggie said, nobody is "hating" on electric cars - or Tesla. I think you're hearing some realistic responses, though. It's an early technology - it may or may not succeed long term. Is electric the final destination for vehicle energy? I don't know. It could just as easily be hydrogen. Do some research. It's not always the technology in the "early lead" that ends up winning out... more times than not it's the technology the can be most easily assimilated into society. In our case, we have many millions of combustion cars on the road, fuel supply systems, filling stations, etc - a technology that can leverage that ecosystem while delivering better economics to the consumer would be a clear winner over one that demands throwing it all out and doing a full-on rip-and-replace. And maybe electric is where it ends up, regardless - who knows.

Either way, if YOU feel it's the right decision for YOU, so be it - go buy it. It's a personal choice. You don't need to justify it to anyone here... but nor do they need to agree it's a great decision.

The difference with hydrogen or some other fuel methods is that we don't have the infrastructure. Electricity is available everywhere, and what is great it is already at your house and you can get your self a dedicated charger that will charge the car in 4 hours. Tesla several months ago just put a new super charger station few miles from I live and a service station.

You guys have to embrace new tech and stop "being safe". What is crazy is that a lot of people pre-ordered those Tesla S cars 12+ months before it was available. They got their deliveries in 2012. The car as been on the road now for 2 years and it has been proven million times that it works but now almost 50,000 owners or so. I am not planning to get the Tesla S because it is out of my price range, I am waiting for Model 3.

I don't understand you people for your ridiculous over cautious paranoia.

[SonicEndeavor]

Originally Posted by slingxshot

The difference with hydrogen or some other fuel methods is that we don't have the infrastructure. Electricity is available everywhere, and what is great it is already at your house and you can get your self a dedicated charger that will charge the car in 4 hours. Tesla several months ago just put a new super charger station few miles from I live and a service station.

You guys have to embrace new tech and stop "being safe". What is crazy is that a lot of people pre-ordered those Tesla S cars 12+ months before it was available. They got their deliveries in 2012. The car as been on the road now for 2 years and it has been proven million times that it works but now almost 50,000 owners or so. I am not planning to get the Tesla S because it is out of my price range, I am waiting for Model 3.

I don't understand you people for your ridiculous over cautious paranoia.

+1000 - progress or die.
And on the topic of subsidies, fossil fuel companies are subsidized at close to a trillion dollars per year globally not to mention the costs of associated health and environmental damage. It's going to be a long transition but the world has to move away from fossil fuels.