[badblack550xi]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

AJ emailed me my dyno today. This is with no driving at all, basically just installing it, and roughly 10-12 pulls straight with the only break being to make small adjustments. Boost increases started at 3500 rpm, I don't have anything touched below that RPM so traction is still awesome, no spikes or surging, and no knock. I will be dynoing again when AJ gets back in town as it seemed to get much faster the more I beat on it on the way home Because there are no crazy torque spikes, you can see the true power increase of his piggy back system. Im also going to play a bit with lowering where the boost comes in to see if I can still get traction, but seeing as how you're only at that RPM for a split second before hitting the power band and never returning, its pretty much pointless to make huge torque down there that just limits a launch.

some low numbers there

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by combatbmw

Im no genius but wouldn't u want the turbos to start spooling early to give you the power up high faster?

I think its pretty cool to not have it kick in till 3500, except when your at the track, with some good DR's or slicks.
W/out that extra boost/power car would just bog off the line.

But for normal driving, I can see how this is beneficial.

the turbos are spooled within 1,000 rpm generally, the difference is the wastegates arent closed and causing torque spikes, knock (which in turn causes knock retard and surging/timing retard) and of course tire spin. Seeing as how I can hold 3 tunes, when I get time I will play with the settings and try to roll the boost in sooner.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by badblack550xi

some low numbers there

compared to what?

[badblack550xi]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

compared to what?

to a BMS thats my stage 1 numbers on a MUSTANG that is.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by badblack550xi

to a BMS thats my stage 1 numbers on a MUSTANG that is.

oh, your sea level 93 octane stuff? Congrats! I know youre smarter than you play off on here (at least im hoping), so im going to ignore the ignorance of most of your comments and let you just be a post whore.

[combatbmw]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

oh, your sea level 93 octane stuff? Congrats! I know youre smarter than you play off on here (at least im hoping), so im going to ignore the ignorance of most of your comments and let you just be a post whore.

Your numbers from your tune weren't that bad. Only about -10hp from 2 different dyno's Ive looked at of a BMS stage 1, Both of which were on 91.

Torque is pretty bad though, but that I think is due to your boost delay thing.
You only had an increase of 16, where the bms is no less then 60 TQ on stage one for your N63.

So your numbers are not terrible, just not as high as BMS cars.
Good news is Your car stock is making good power, on 91, and at your temps in AZ.

I guess just wait for a tune, but don't wait to long.. We all have waited a REALLY long time.
I say if your happy with your ESS piggy your good, if you want more power go w/BMS Stage 1 or 2 until someone makes a tune for that car.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by combatbmw

Your numbers from your tune weren't that bad. Only about -10hp from 2 different dyno's Ive looked at of a BMS stage 1, Both of which were on 91.

Torque is pretty bad though, but that I think is due to your boost delay thing.
You only had an increase of 16, where the bms is no less then 60 TQ on stage one for your N63.

So your numbers are not terrible, just not as high as BMS cars.
Good news is Your car stock is making good power, on 91, and at your temps in AZ.

I guess just wait for a tune, but don't wait to long.. We all have waited a REALLY long time.
I say if your happy with your ESS piggy your good, if you want more power go w/BMS Stage 1 or 2 until someone makes a tune for that car.

My numbers are fine, its apples and oranges if youre comparing to a torque spike on a non adjustable tuner. As far as a BMS, ESS has a few laying around and has done plenty of testing. Adding 3 lbs of boost is adding 3 lbs of boost regardless of whos name is on the box, I just have more adjustability with mine and the ability to decide when I want that boost added. When AJ gets back, we will be doing a custom flash, but thankfully I dont get hung up on dyno numbers like some seem to since its nothing but a tuning instrument and proves nothing unless both tests are done the same day on the same car on the same dyno... Those on here being picky about numbers are bench racing from opposite sides of the country with little to no idea how any of these devices work, nor what they are doing to the vehicle, whether positive or negative. Ive been tuning for about 11 years now and love when someone says their vehicle is better/faster/stronger because of a dyno done on the east coast, or west coast, or on some other car and comparing it like it means anything... and even funnier, when someone does come out with the "best", everyone else calls him out as a cheater, liar and scammer. I guess ive grown out of the insecurity associated with "whos best" and the excuses that go along with it and instead prefer whats best for me, and safest for the car. Then again, I can also read a scanner and understand what some of these aftermarket devices are doing to the cars they are installed on, as well as the damage being done. You did it right by getting a custom tune done and hopefully soon I will be doing the same thing, I just dont want to waste money twice on ECUs if I change my combo in 6 months.

[ARC550]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

My numbers are fine, its apples and oranges if youre comparing to a torque spike on a non adjustable tuner. As far as a BMS, ESS has a few laying around and has done plenty of testing. Adding 3 lbs of boost is adding 3 lbs of boost regardless of whos name is on the box, I just have more adjustability with mine and the ability to decide when I want that boost added. When AJ gets back, we will be doing a custom flash, but thankfully I dont get hung up on dyno numbers like some seem to since its nothing but a tuning instrument and proves nothing unless both tests are done the same day on the same car on the same dyno... Those on here being picky about numbers are bench racing from opposite sides of the country with little to no idea how any of these devices work, nor what they are doing to the vehicle, whether positive or negative. Ive been tuning for about 11 years now and love when someone says their vehicle is better/faster/stronger because of a dyno done on the east coast, or west coast, or on some other car and comparing it like it means anything... and even funnier, when someone does come out with the "best", everyone else calls him out as a cheater, liar and scammer. I guess ive grown out of the insecurity associated with "whos best" and the excuses that go along with it and instead prefer whats best for me, and safest for the car. Then again, I can also read a scanner and understand what some of these aftermarket devices are doing to the cars they are installed on, as well as the damage being done. You did it right by getting a custom tune done and hopefully soon I will be doing the same thing, I just dont want to waste money twice on ECUs if I change my combo in 6 months.

Tell em bro! That dyno is reading a tad low in comparison to BMS. I guess its still early stages so we will see In the coning weeks.
P.s does it really matter what settings you can put it on if all settings are "Slow, slower, Slowest" lol messing with you.

Swriously let's see what happens in the coming weeks. I honestly don't want you or anyone else to get jerked around with these tuners with promise of big power. Combat was jerked around By a few big players and it was all for Not. And don't he struck gold with Gintani.

Good luck brother!

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by ARC550

Tell em bro! That dyno is reading a tad low in comparison to BMS. I guess its still early stages so we will see In the coning weeks.
P.s does it really matter what settings you can put it on if all settings are "Slow, slower, Slowest" lol messing with you.

Swriously let's see what happens in the coming weeks. I honestly don't want you or anyone else to get jerked around with these tuners with promise of big power. Combat was jerked around By a few big players and it was all for Not. And don't he struck gold with Gintani.

Good luck brother!

In all honesty, if AJ did something wrong or lied to me, id be the first to run him over with the bus... last time I got screwed by a shop it was 2001 and the screwing was quite good. Since then ive done all my own work, but that obviously isnt an easy task on these cars, so I have to trust someone else. The fact that AJ went out of his way and worked on my car until 10 pm made me pretty ecstatic since he was literally about to spend a day on a plane back to Norway and still had other cars to finish, and now I have something to play with until he gets back and can flash a new ECU for me. I watched him tune a couple M5s, so I know he can (as well as 800 rwhp Audi R8s, 3 liter supercharged MBs and more). As far as the Burger stage 1 stuff, I made just about the same gains (his baseline was 5 hp higher so it only makes sense his "after" is also 5 hp higher).

Per his own thread http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22748 , he used 93 octane (1 can of NOS octane booster) on his stage II stuff, so of course his numbers will be higher. If you want apples to apples and AJ wants to borrow my car for the day, im sure I can do a 91/95 50/50 mix so I can have real 93 and do some real back to back dynos, however heres the thing... boost is boost. If he adds 3 lbs, and I add 3 lbs, it should make the same difference regardless of whos tuner module it is. The biggest difference is with the Burger, it adds 3 lbs at all times where as with the ESS kit, you can pick what RPM it comes in at. I havent messed with Terrys interface and the steering wheel controls so I cant comment on it, however the ease of using the ESS interface is awesome as I can pick which of the 3 tunes I want, then add or subtract boost as I see fit for octanes etc.

At this second, im just driving back and forth for work, and those who dont know phoenix, at times there are more police officers on the streets than people, so I really dont care to see which ones are car friendly and which ones arent. Im off sunday and if I get time, I want to try some E85 in one tank and see how it acts, and then when that tank is done, try a 95/91 mix and see how it does with more timing. I will also put it back on the dyno eventually now that it has miles on it and see if it picked up power, and if those on here insist on a torque spike so they can compare dicks, I will see if AJ wants to do a burger similar file where it just adds blanket boost everywhere, that way I can just spin my tires and accomplish nothing (unless I get slicks or somehow an Xdrive finds its way into my drivetrain).

If anyone wants to race and check out our fantastic 91 octane fuel here as well as the crappy air and heat, come on down, stay at the spare room at my house and we can go to the track or AJs dyno. I dont do bench racing, I dont care what someones car makes in another state or on another dyno, I dont care what someones car ran at another track... if youre that worred about what my car makes or does, come here and get some.

[combatbmw]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

. I dont do bench racing, I dont care what someones car makes in another state or on another dyno, I dont care what someones car ran at another track... if youre that worred about what my car makes or does, come here and get some.

Good logic, and true.
BMS stage 1 you are correct about w/boost being boost and all.
I think the Stage 2 does other stuff, but im not sure what.

I'd love to go to the track with my car, but when I have time to actually go to the track, I usually take my track bike and spend the day racing.

I've never really been into just 1/4 mile tracks.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by combatbmw

Good logic, and true.
BMS stage 1 you are correct about w/boost being boost and all.
I think the Stage 2 does other stuff, but im not sure what.

I'd love to go to the track with my car, but when I have time to actually go to the track, I usually take my track bike and spend the day racing.

I've never really been into just 1/4 mile tracks.

We have INDE motorsports park here for corners, but its a few hours from phoenix. The 1/4 mile track is a pain in the ass and I usually work friday nights, but I do have plans of going at some point. As I said earlier though, with DAs in the 5,000 ft range or higher in the summer, its pretty much like trying to race on a mountain unless you have huge turbos that can compensate, then theres the heat issue. I want to wait for AJ to get back so I can test on the same dyno (my other buddy has a mustang dyno, so maybe just for comparisons sake I will run on his later), but AJs is a Load controlled dynojet at least. I would like to at least get this piggy back vetted properly to see what it can and cant do, and AJ said to leave it on so I can use it as a boost controller and set the fuels to 91, 93 and race or E85 after I get the flash.

Summer time just sucks here for going fast beacause its hot, the air sucks, and the fuel sucks.

[ARC550]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

In all honesty, if AJ did something wrong or lied to me, id be the first to run him over with the bus... last time I got screwed by a shop it was 2001 and the screwing was quite good. Since then ive done all my own work, but that obviously isnt an easy task on these cars, so I have to trust someone else. The fact that AJ went out of his way and worked on my car until 10 pm made me pretty ecstatic since he was literally about to spend a day on a plane back to Norway and still had other cars to finish, and now I have something to play with until he gets back and can flash a new ECU for me. I watched him tune a couple M5s, so I know he can (as well as 800 rwhp Audi R8s, 3 liter supercharged MBs and more). As far as the Burger stage 1 stuff, I made just about the same gains (his baseline was 5 hp higher so it only makes sense his "after" is also 5 hp higher).

Per his own thread http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22748 , he used 93 octane (1 can of NOS octane booster) on his stage II stuff, so of course his numbers will be higher. If you want apples to apples and AJ wants to borrow my car for the day, im sure I can do a 91/95 50/50 mix so I can have real 93 and do some real back to back dynos, however heres the thing... boost is boost. If he adds 3 lbs, and I add 3 lbs, it should make the same difference regardless of whos tuner module it is. The biggest difference is with the Burger, it adds 3 lbs at all times where as with the ESS kit, you can pick what RPM it comes in at. I havent messed with Terrys interface and the steering wheel controls so I cant comment on it, however the ease of using the ESS interface is awesome as I can pick which of the 3 tunes I want, then add or subtract boost as I see fit for octanes etc.

At this second, im just driving back and forth for work, and those who dont know phoenix, at times there are more police officers on the streets than people, so I really dont care to see which ones are car friendly and which ones arent. Im off sunday and if I get time, I want to try some E85 in one tank and see how it acts, and then when that tank is done, try a 95/91 mix and see how it does with more timing. I will also put it back on the dyno eventually now that it has miles on it and see if it picked up power, and if those on here insist on a torque spike so they can compare dicks, I will see if AJ wants to do a burger similar file where it just adds blanket boost everywhere, that way I can just spin my tires and accomplish nothing (unless I get slicks or somehow an Xdrive finds its way into my drivetrain).

If anyone wants to race and check out our fantastic 91 octane fuel here as well as the crappy air and heat, come on down, stay at the spare room at my house and we can go to the track or AJs dyno. I dont do bench racing, I dont care what someones car makes in another state or on another dyno, I dont care what someones car ran at another track... if youre that worred about what my car makes or does, come here and get some.

U D MAN.
E85 is intense lets see what happens.

Also lets see what else these guys have up their sleeve with the N63.

Stage 2 for BMS alters allot more then just boost and snobby Badblack actually put up really good numbers with it. Perhaps AJ has a hybrid of BMS and his own. If so then Big Powa!!!!! Anyway let's wait and see...

P.s are they able to remove speed limiter or adjust launch RPM on your car? That would be a real
Testament to the "Tune" they claim.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by ARC550

U D MAN.
E85 is intense lets see what happens.

Also lets see what else these guys have up their sleeve with the N63.

Stage 2 for BMS alters allot more then just boost and snobby Badblack actually put up really good numbers with it. Perhaps AJ has a hybrid of BMS and his own. If so then Big Powa!!!!! Anyway let's wait and see...

P.s are they able to remove speed limiter or adjust launch RPM on your car? That would be a real
Testament to the "Tune" they claim.

with the flash he can... It just really depends if I'm going to keep this car and go big with turbos and downpipes, or maybe trade it in towards the end of the year and get a N63TU car that seems to be more mod friendly.

[ARC550]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

with the flash he can... It just really depends if I'm going to keep this car and go big with turbos and downpipes, or maybe trade it in towards the end of the year and get a N63TU car that seems to be more mod friendly.

Get the TU bro. Trust me.
Ask anyone with a modes N63 and they will tell you to get the TU.

[badblack550xi]

Originally Posted by ARC550

U D MAN.
E85 is intense lets see what happens.

Also lets see what else these guys have up their sleeve with the N63.

Ssnobby Badblack

you made my day

[LongBeachDinanFan]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

In all honesty, if AJ did something wrong or lied to me, id be the first to run him over with the bus... last time I got screwed by a shop it was 2001 and the screwing was quite good. Since then ive done all my own work, but that obviously isnt an easy task on these cars, so I have to trust someone else.

I have been following this thread with interest for what I thought would be the first clean N63 before and after flash tuner results. Like yourself and other readers I'm disappointed that the vehicle could only be tuned with a piggyback box at this time.

Since I read the thread anyway here is my take. The results provided by your new piggyback look to me to be on par with all of the other so called Stage1 boxes. So called Stage1 systems seem to add 30hp to the wheels while so called Stage2 systems seem to add 60hp to the wheels. I was hopeful your flash tuner would add 100hp to the wheels, for example. Maybe down the road this tuner or some other will step up to the plate for some legitimate before and after dyno results.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by LongBeachDinanFan

I have been following this thread with interest for what I thought would be the first clean N63 before and after flash tuner results. Like yourself and other readers I'm disappointed that the vehicle could only be tuned with a piggyback box at this time.

Since I read the thread anyway here is my take. The results provided by your new piggyback look to me to be on par with all of the other so called Stage1 boxes. So called Stage1 systems seem to add 30hp to the wheels while so called Stage2 systems seem to add 60hp to the wheels. I was hopeful your flash tuner would add 100hp to the wheels, for example. Maybe down the road this tuner or some other will step up to the plate for some legitimate before and after dyno results.

Its not possible without a flash (I dont have a flash tuner, I have a ESS piggy back, my flash will be done at a later date). As discussed earlier, boost is boost. Adding 3 lbs from one tuner isnt going to be any different power than adding 3 from another tuner no matter what smoke and mirrors someone gives you. The ONLY difference in the Burger tunes is the amount of boost raised due to higher octane (stage 1 had 91, stage 2 had 93). If you add more boost, you start getting knock retard and detonation. The issue also run into is running out of fuel trim for the vehicle to add fuel accordingly for more boost.
There is no magical box that will add 100 horsepower unless it is able to edit factory parameters, which a flash does. That being said, the difference in boxes comes from how it is applied... the burger box just adds 3 lbs all over, the ESS box allows you to feed boost in gradually and at certain RPMs, and also intercepts the MAF signals in addition to the MAP sensors with multiple tunes which are all adjustable.

With a flash tune, you are able to pull timing so you can safely add more boost as well as change target air fuel ratios, fueling tables, where boost comes in and stops etc. This is where the real power comes in as you can SAFELY adjust these variables, where as ANY piggy back is just intercepting sensors and forcing them to add boost and adjust the other factors on their own.

This is it, black and white. The "better" box is the one that suits your needs best. Which one that is, is up to you.

[badblack550xi]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

Its not possible without a flash (I dont have a flash tuner, I have a ESS piggy back, my flash will be done at a later date). As discussed earlier, boost is boost. Adding 3 lbs from one tuner isnt going to be any different power than adding 3 from another tuner no matter what smoke and mirrors someone gives you. The ONLY difference in the Burger tunes is the amount of boost raised due to higher octane (stage 1 had 91, stage 2 had 93). If you add more boost, you start getting knock retard and detonation. The issue also run into is running out of fuel trim for the vehicle to add fuel accordingly for more boost.
There is no magical box that will add 100 horsepower unless it is able to edit factory parameters, which a flash does. That being said, the difference in boxes comes from how it is applied... the burger box just adds 3 lbs all over, the ESS box allows you to feed boost in gradually and at certain RPMs, and also intercepts the MAF signals in addition to the MAP sensors with multiple tunes which are all adjustable.

With a flash tune, you are able to pull timing so you can safely add more boost as well as change target air fuel ratios, fueling tables, where boost comes in and stops etc. This is where the real power comes in as you can SAFELY adjust these variables, where as ANY piggy back is just intercepting sensors and forcing them to add boost and adjust the other factors on their own.

This is it, black and white. The "better" box is the one that suits your needs best. Which one that is, is up to you.

What you said is wrong, because stage 2 BMS has timing control & fuel
control. You can log runs with and without it and see timing and
fueling change. Not just boost. Those are the wires you add in to the
DME! The ESS has only boost control. They monitor MAF but its not used
for tuning on N63.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by badblack550xi

What you said is wrong, because stage 2 BMS has timing control & fuel
control. You can log runs with and without it and see timing and
fueling change. Not just boost. Those are the wires you add in to the
DME! The ESS has only boost control. They monitor MAF but its not used
for tuning on N63.

Im going to look into that more, that wasnt what I got from Terry explaining it to me, but if it does, thats a good step forward on the piggy backs. Seems like a lot of people are complaining of check engine lights, drivaibility issues etc which swayed me away from it and originally towards a stage 1 setup from him.

[badblack550xi]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

Im going to look into that more, that wasnt what I got from Terry explaining it to me, but if it does, thats a good step forward on the piggy backs. Seems like a lot of people are complaining of check engine lights, drivaibility issues etc which swayed me away from it and originally towards a stage 1 setup from him.

Stage 1 is just boost control stage 2 timing and fuel control. Most issues is because of the Recall N63 had besides that no issues.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by badblack550xi

Stage 1 is just boost control stage 2 timing and fuel control. Most issues is because of the Recall N63 had besides that no issues.

per Terrys site

Map: On the front page of the interface there is a map drop down box. Map 0 disables the S2 all together. Map 1 enables it. There are no other maps.
Boost Failsafe PSI: This is the part of the aggressiveness setting. Higher numbers means more boost, lower numbers means less boost. Generally a setting of 2.5-3 is suggested.
Default Wastegate Position: This mislabeled setting has to do with how the tune alters the DME's charge air temperature reading. Generally a setting of 2 is suggested which is the algorithm we've worked up to maximize the gains while minimizing the trade offs. A setting of 1 can be used to "lock" the tune in to max aggressive mode. But this will trigger fault codes within the DME during cold starts and may result in your engine cooling fans working a lot harder than they need to. Generally a setting of 1 is good for track or dyno days, and a setting of 2 is good for street use. A higher setting of say 5 or 10 would make the overall tuning less aggressive. A setting of 0 would disable this feature and make the boost curve more similar to the Stage1 tuning.
Open Loop: This controls the overall fueling capacity. The default setting is suggested but a lower setting can be used to lean the mixture out if desired.

Sounds like hes intercepting the Intake Air Temp sensor to control timing, which would explain drivability issues if its always reporting low to increase timing, or high to pull timing. I used that trick in 1998 before tuning came out for the GM cars, works well on dated computers but tough to say on the smarter BMW stuff. If it works though, pull the timing out a bit and put some boost in I would have expected more than a 20 horsepower gain though considering its 93 octane instead of 91 octane.

[badblack550xi]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

per Terrys site


Sounds like hes intercepting the Intake Air Temp sensor to control timing, which would explain drivability issues if its always reporting low to increase timing, or high to pull timing. I used that trick in 1998 before tuning came out for the GM cars, works well on dated computers but tough to say on the smarter BMW stuff. If it works though, pull the timing out a bit and put some boost in I would have expected more than a 20 horsepower gain though considering its 93 octane instead of 91 octane.

According to BMS altering the charge air temperatures is part of the timing mapping. That is also done to raise the DME boost solenoid duty cycle limit. The remapping occurs dynamically as a function of boost over stock the same way AFR and fuel trims are dynamically altered.

If going from 30whp to 60whp is easy to do with an n63 then I'd encourage you to do it. Here are the official BMS Stage1 and Stage2 n63 power figures on a 100% stock car using 93 octane fuel. I don't know if 91 octane would make any less power given the conservative nature of the timing mapping with Stage2. Your ESS tune is producing numbers on par with the $450 BMS Stage1 as I'm sure you know. I understand you've set your tune up to limit boost in the lower RPM range but I'd suggest you could also just press the gas pedal down not all the way when you want to limit boost.