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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 BMW 5-Series (F10) Forums General 5-Series Sedan and Wagon (F10 / F11) Forum Two Million F10 5 Series Sold
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      04-13-2016, 04:31 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by PJinCA View Post
Except for the fact that the M5 is no longer the preeminent sports sedan. Thanks to the bean counters in the M division, the current M5 is maybe 3rd among "super sedans", lagging behind both the AMG E63 and the Cadillac CTS-V. This is sad for me, since I have loved BMWs since I was a kid, and they have always been just that little bit better than the competition. The E39 M5, for example, had less power than the E55 AMG. However, it was slightly better in every tested aspect of performance. Better cornering, better track times, better braking. That has evaporated
This is not true when the F10 M5 came out it kill the competition now that Caddy and AMG have dropped their new models the new M5 will have to be better then them then the new AMG will come out and beat the M5 then the New V it is a endless cycle either way I believe the F90 M5 will be king once again....

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Originally Posted by PJinCA View Post
Somehow I doubt it will, with the head of the M division stating he never sees an M car with more than 600 hp (which the next M5 will have). The next gen E63 and CTS-V will most certainly have more. And both have braking on par and better handling than the current M5. This means that M needs to play catch up with the M5/M6, because it appears that they are focused solely on the M3/M4
Both the V and the AMG better have better everything since both was seen testing against the current M5 it would be a waste to drop a car weaker then the current models of their competitors....also I do believe they have put way to much effort into the M3/4 but that is their bread and butter for the M division.....

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Originally Posted by goj View Post
The F10 is in its 7th and last model year, yes caddy one upped the m5 but if it couldn't it would have been a failure given the 5 er entering the end of its life.

I'm sure the new 5 will stack up quite well against the competition. Remember, with technology advancing so quickly the ebb and flow of product life cycles has a bigger and bigger impact on how appealing one brand may be against the older models from the competition.
I agree the current Gen stops production this Oct then the G30 5 will come out with the M5 coming out in 2018 or 2019and the king will return.....
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      04-13-2016, 08:48 AM   #46
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No, a 535xi as a DC and family runabout.

I already have an M3 for hardcore thrills, and I've had the E90 M3 with the high revving V8 before that. I've experienced both sides of the power/torque argument as it were.
Far from telling you how to spend your money , but in my opinion, F10 would've complemented your M3 better, especially since you're using it as a family car. But, good luck, hope it works out the way you expected it to.
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      04-13-2016, 10:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by visualguy View Post
Audi A6/S6, and Lexus GS350. Possibly Cadillac CTS as well - I haven't driven the latest one.
Audi is terrible unless you're talking about the RS models.

I agree with you on the CTS, GS and I would also add the E-Class mercedes.
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      04-13-2016, 10:56 AM   #48
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Audi is terrible unless you're talking about the RS models.

I agree with you on the CTS, GS and I would also add the E-Class mercedes.
Personal opinion of course, but I have to disagree, big time
No way, GS350 and E class, just no way, not even close, night and day these two.

I agree with previous post on Audi and F10, it's very close when comparing the handling of these two, haven't tried CTS, so can't say.
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      04-13-2016, 10:56 AM   #49
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It is a beautiful car, just too large for my taste but great milestone nonetheless!
Haha! I was going to write something similar, but opposite

"It is a beautiful car, just too small for my taste but great milestone nonetheless!"
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      04-13-2016, 11:28 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by goj View Post
It is a beautiful car, just too large for my taste but great milestone nonetheless!
Haha! I was going to write something similar, but opposite

"It is a beautiful car, just too small for my taste but great milestone nonetheless!"
I think I could make an exception for the G12
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      04-13-2016, 11:49 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Bbb34 View Post
Personal opinion of course, but I have to disagree, big time
No way, GS350 and E class, just no way, not even close, night and day these two.

I agree with previous post on Audi and F10, it's very close when comparing the handling of these two, haven't tried CTS, so can't say.
Then it depends on your preference, the GS and E class steering is much smoother than the F10. It's like cutting through butter with a hot knife.

The CTS is good as well, it's a must drive if you're talking about the V. I haven't driven the base.
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      04-13-2016, 02:13 PM   #52
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Current competitors for the F10 are:
Lexus GS - not real competition since it's performance is more Lincoln than BMW
Merc E class - Comparable, but (my feeling) Mercs are associated with old people.
Cadillac CTS - Again, comparable, but the fact that the CTS can still be had with the "gold package" nauseates me and brings it to ridiculously tacky level. It may perform comparably, but really it's a caricature of modern luxury. Cadillac needs to learn, modern buyers have taste, you can't slather a car with gold and be taken seriously.
Audi A6/S6 - Nice interiors, but it's exterior styling (if you want to call it that) is more Camry than luxury sedan.
Infiniti and Acura have models they think are in the league, but no, just no, sorry.

Overall, the only comparisons for me are with previous gen BMWs. Just my opinion. The F10 is a good looking car, comfy, and packed with tech. All pluses. My complaints are in the handling and departure from being a niche enthusiast focused car to being a more homogenous car built for more sales (which worked, since it has record sales).
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      04-13-2016, 02:57 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Bbb34 View Post
They sold a lot because they built exceptionally well balanced car.

Comfortable, spacious, great looking, luxurious cruiser with decent mileage and at the end of the day, still sporty ride for the size. Choosing options wisely goes a long way to get the best handling F10 possible.

Not perfect, but pretty darn good, one of best looking and handling vehicles in it's class without doubt.
Much the same thinking. I had an E39 540i and didn't think any 5-series would match that car. The original E60 didn't in my view, for a variety of reasons. LCI models sorted some of the issues, but still left me unconvinced.

The F10/11 moved the game on in my opinion. A little bigger than I'd have preferred, but with the right options is better than the E39, having lived with both for over 3-years each.

I'm in the F11 wagon, superb vehicle IMO, I see why Top Gear positions it as "Best in Class" and has the following to say of the F11.

Quote:
“The class-leader by a country mile. Spec carefully and reap the benefits”
Quote:
One the all-time greats in every age of its existence, the 5-Series Touring seems to have a finger firmly in every pie, with great chassis dynamics, immense carrying ability, superb comfort and wonderful engines. And for the current model those dubious looks have been replaced by something far more svelte, understated and enduring. It’s a wonder sometimes that everyone else doesn’t just pack up and head off home.
http://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/bmw/5-series-touring
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      04-13-2016, 03:04 PM   #54
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My complaints are in the handling and departure from being a niche enthusiast focused car to being a more homogenous car built for more sales (which worked, since it has record sales).
You can read the same complaints in 3 series forum. And if I'm honest during my first test drive I wasn't exactly blown away either. Then I learned about differences between AWD/RWD models suspension, ride height, Msport suspension, DHP, and got lucky and found a manual with DHP. Couldn't be happier. Yeah I wish steering feel would be a bit heavier and I had spare tire in the trunk as riding on non run flats is so much better, but hey, have to compromise a bit.

I think for both, 3 and 5 series, you can still have sporty BMW that's going to make any enthusiast happy. You just have to work harder at configuring it (and maybe pay more) than in the past. I believe this is mostly due to fact that they wanted to appeal to wider range of customers. As you said, numbers back them up, I don't recall ever seeing more BMWs on the road.
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      04-13-2016, 03:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bbb34 View Post
You can read the same complaints in 3 series forum. And if I'm honest during my first test drive I wasn't exactly blown away either. Then I learned about differences between AWD/RWD models suspension, ride height, Msport suspension, DHP, and got lucky and found a manual with DHP. Couldn't be happier. Yeah I wish steering feel would be a bit heavier and I had spare tire in the trunk as riding on non run flats is so much better, but hey, have to compromise a bit.

I think for both, 3 and 5 series, you can still have sporty BMW that's going to make any enthusiast happy. You just have to work harder at configuring it (and maybe pay more) than in the past. I believe this is mostly due to fact that they wanted to appeal to wider range of customers. As you said, numbers back them up, I don't recall ever seeing more BMWs on the road.
Over here in the UK I would say we had more negative comments for the E60 and E9x models, than we receive for the F-series cars. For many, the E60 & E90 were far too hard and knobbly riding on UK roads. BMW had some serious work to do, to satisfy their long term customers, let alone the wider market, who often rubbished the cars as poor riding and therefore flawed cars.

Even our key motor magazine AutoCar marked the E60 down to a '4 star' car due to the ride issues. Quite a blow for BMW as users echoed the same thinking in many of the owner reviews. E9x models didn't fare much better, also received user criticism.

The softer, more mature ride and handling, is much better suited to our roads over here.

The cars are definitely specification sensitive, I opted for Adaptive Drive as that changed the F10/11 in to a much more competent and satisfying car to drive. What is more important, it works on our poor quality UK roads, the roads I drive daily.
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      04-13-2016, 03:30 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Bbb34 View Post
You can read the same complaints in 3 series forum. And if I'm honest during my first test drive I wasn't exactly blown away either. Then I learned about differences between AWD/RWD models suspension, ride height, Msport suspension, DHP, and got lucky and found a manual with DHP. Couldn't be happier. Yeah I wish steering feel would be a bit heavier and I had spare tire in the trunk as riding on non run flats is so much better, but hey, have to compromise a bit.

I think for both, 3 and 5 series, you can still have sporty BMW that's going to make any enthusiast happy. You just have to work harder at configuring it (and maybe pay more) than in the past. I believe this is mostly due to fact that they wanted to appeal to wider range of customers. As you said, numbers back them up, I don't recall ever seeing more BMWs on the road.
That is true to an extent, the one thing that cannot be configured out of the F10 is the 500 lbs of extra weight over the previous E60. And no matter how it's distributed, you can feel it. I agree, no having a spare tire option is a mistake - but then, the reason the E60 did not have quad exhausts was that the spare tire well made a right side muffler nearly impossible. I had a quad exhaust on my E60 530, but it required hammering in a dent into the battery box to fit the right side muffler. Not something the factory would do. The only E60 to come with quads from the factory was the M5, and that did not have a spare tire
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      04-13-2016, 04:07 PM   #57
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That is true to an extent, the one thing that cannot be configured out of the F10 is the 500 lbs of extra weight over the previous E60. And no matter how it's distributed, you can feel it.
Heavy, no denying it, but then again, size, width and weight make it a great long distance cruiser. Because it's heavy, well insulated and smooth, it sometimes doesn't feel as fast as smaller, shorter wheelbase car, until you actually check your speed.

Recently I spent few days in 2016 228xi, and was thinking, what a nice fun little car to drive this is. It feels very well put together, drives (and shocking for 4 cyl. engine) sounds good in the cabin (not that great once you're outside). But as fun, nimble and light as it feels, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I found myself missing the size, space and overall "smoothness" of 5 series.
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      04-13-2016, 04:40 PM   #58
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That is true to an extent, the one thing that cannot be configured out of the F10 is the 500 lbs of extra weight over the previous E60. And no matter how it's distributed, you can feel it...
I'm not sure how we calculate this 'extra' weight issue...

I came from an E39 540i (touring) with a EU weight rating of 1845kg, the E61 535d (touring) which I was wanting to buy, was rated at 1834kg. My current F11 535i (touring) is rated at 1845kg, the same weight as the much smaller E39 540i, which incidentally has a very similar performance as the F11 535i.

For me the E39, E61 and F11 (I compare) are almost identical weights, perhaps why I see little difference in the often criticised size/weight issue.

I had M-tech suspension on my E39, the Adaptive Drive option makes the F11 just as agile as the E39, plus there is a choice of suspension modes.
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      04-13-2016, 04:44 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Bbb34 View Post
Heavy, no denying it, but then again, size, width and weight make it a great long distance cruiser. Because it's heavy, well insulated and smooth, it sometimes doesn't feel as fast as smaller, shorter wheelbase car, until you actually check your speed.

Recently I spent few days in 2016 228xi, and was thinking, what a nice fun little car to drive this is. It feels very well put together, drives (and shocking for 4 cyl. engine) sounds good in the cabin (not that great once you're outside). But as fun, nimble and light as it feels, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I found myself missing the size, space and overall "smoothness" of 5 series.
I can agree, as a big man (6'4" and 235 lbs), I cannot get comfy in a 2 or 3 series. They are simply too small. However, I was not planning on getting an F10 because of it's girth and how the handling compared to my E60 550. I was instead planning to wait until the G30 came out. It is supposed to be about 250 lbs lighter than the F10, combine that with a stiffer chassis, M-Sport suspension, better weight distribution and you will (hopefully) have a car more comparable in handling to my old E60 than the F10 is with the comfort and tech of the F10.
The only reason I got an F10, if I'm honest, was because a drunk driver killed my E60. I was perfectly content waiting until next year to order a G30 (pending a test drive, of course)
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      04-13-2016, 05:27 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by PJinCA View Post
Current competitors for the F10 are:
Lexus GS - not real competition since it's performance is more Lincoln than BMW
Merc E class - Comparable, but (my feeling) Mercs are associated with old people.
Cadillac CTS - Again, comparable, but the fact that the CTS can still be had with the "gold package" nauseates me and brings it to ridiculously tacky level. It may perform comparably, but really it's a caricature of modern luxury. Cadillac needs to learn, modern buyers have taste, you can't slather a car with gold and be taken seriously.
Audi A6/S6 - Nice interiors, but it's exterior styling (if you want to call it that) is more Camry than luxury sedan.
Infiniti and Acura have models they think are in the league, but no, just no, sorry.

Overall, the only comparisons for me are with previous gen BMWs. Just my opinion. The F10 is a good looking car, comfy, and packed with tech. All pluses. My complaints are in the handling and departure from being a niche enthusiast focused car to being a more homogenous car built for more sales (which worked, since it has record sales).
Have you actually driven a Lexus GS350 F-Sport? It handles significantly better than the F10 M Sport. Seems like a combination of the suspension, lighter weight, and smaller size. I don't think you've driven it since you mention Lincoln handling when the car actually has sporty handling. Too bad the Lexus is seriously ugly, though...

I agree that the exterior styling of the Audi A6/S6 is boring, but performance and handling are much more important, and the exterior isn't ugly. Easily beating the F10 M Sport in handling. The Audi really shrinks around you and feels more nimble than the F10. The problem with Audi is actually the lease deals, which is the reason I didn't go for it.
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      04-13-2016, 05:38 PM   #61
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Have you actually driven a Lexus GS350 F-Sport? It handles significantly better than the F10 M Sport. Seems like a combination of the suspension, lighter weight, and smaller size. I don't think you've driven it since you mention Lincoln handling when the car actually has sporty handling. Too bad the Lexus is seriously ugly, though...

I agree that the exterior styling of the Audi A6/S6 is boring, but performance and handling are much more important, and the exterior isn't ugly. Easily beating the F10 M Sport in handling. The Audi really shrinks around you and feels more nimble than the F10. The problem with Audi is actually the lease deals, which is the reason I didn't go for it.
The Lexus F-sport models tend to be heavy and not handle as well as their German counter parts (see: M4 vs IS-F - M4 less power, but way better braking, handling, steering, weight, leading to better 1/4, 1/2 miles times, and HUGE time differences on a lap of a track). I highly doubt the GS350 F-Sport outperforms the F10, they have identical HP ratings (306), and the Lexus is 150lbs heavier than the F10 (which is already a plump car). Now if you want to mention the GS450 (338 hp), that falls well short of the F10 550 (395 hp), and still weighs more. If you want to mention the GS-F, will that outperform an F10 535? Sure, unfortunately, it's target is actually the M5, and against that it is a truly sad competitor

P.S. Another reason I think of Lexus as a "nice" car and not a "performance" car is simple. One of the things I do love about BMW is that the platform is shared with NOTHING else. There isn't a cheapass car out there that my car is a rebadged version of, it is simply a BMW. The only car to share a platform with any BMW is Rolls Royce (it shares the 7 series platform and some mechanicals), and you could do a lot worse than that.

I could have gotten an Audi as well, a buddy is a partner at an Audi dealership, however, they are FUGLY. Besides, I still chuckle about owning a car from VAG (call me immature, whatever). For those that don't know VAG = Volkswagen Auto Group, which includes VW, AUdi, Porsche, Bentley, Lamborghini.
We have a splash screen on startup that says "BMW", a friend had a fun VW - the R32, and even he laughed every time the car started and "VAG" came across his NAV screen. No thanks

Last edited by PJinCA; 04-13-2016 at 06:56 PM..
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      04-13-2016, 07:04 PM   #62
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      04-13-2016, 07:06 PM   #63
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Well this is not good
its going to drive price down on used F10s
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      04-13-2016, 07:09 PM   #64
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Have you actually driven a Lexus GS350 F-Sport? It handles significantly better than the F10 M Sport. Seems like a combination of the suspension, lighter weight, and smaller size. I don't think you've driven it since you mention Lincoln handling when the car actually has sporty handling. Too bad the Lexus is seriously ugly, though...

I agree that the exterior styling of the Audi A6/S6 is boring, but performance and handling are much more important, and the exterior isn't ugly. Easily beating the F10 M Sport in handling. The Audi really shrinks around you and feels more nimble than the F10. The problem with Audi is actually the lease deals, which is the reason I didn't go for it.
I have driven Lincoln and Lexus, Lexus is nothing but overpriced Toyota camry.
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      04-13-2016, 08:49 PM   #65
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2013 Lexus GS 350 F-Sport 0-60 mph 5.4 | Quarter mile 13.8
2011 BMW 535i non-Msport 0-60 mph 5.5 | Quarter mile 13.9
Based on the above, I highly doubt the Lexus F sport "out performs" an F10 535 M-Sport.
Let's be real, it's still a Lexus. Sorry, it's only 0.1 secs faster than a non-Msport.
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      04-13-2016, 08:59 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by PJinCA View Post
2013 Lexus GS 350 F-Sport 0-60 mph 5.4 | Quarter mile 13.8
2011 BMW 535i non-Msport 0-60 mph 5.5 | Quarter mile 13.9
Based on the above, I highly doubt the Lexus F sport "out performs" an F10 535 M-Sport.
Let's be real, it's still a Lexus. Sorry, it's only 0.1 secs faster than a non-Msport.
If we're talking about performance, ofcourse the BMW is in the lead. I thought it was based on handling and comfort.
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