[varun]

After clocking in hundreds of hours with this system in Europe (euro delivery), and in the US, I have to say that I am VERY disappointed with this option after testing it out on other manufacturers. I mean look at this video, a new Hyundai can do it better, and hold a lane too but that my $80k BMW cannot?

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...y-system-video

Firstly, the car can park itself via parking assistant, so why cannot that hardware be used to hold a lane on the highway? Hyundai, Lincoln etc have had this around for some time now. Secondly the car WILL NOT give you full brake pressure like they told me when I ordered the car, it maybe 50% at best with the collision warning going crazy then I have to intervene.

Here is a scenario, when set to maximum safe distance (4 bars) and the car is cruising at 70mph, it will not see a slow moving 35mph car dead ahead until say 200 feet, then it 'lazily' applies the brakes and I can tell it wont stop in time. When the collision warning goes off, I've to give it full brake pressure (brakes primed as they are being applied at around 50%) till I hit ABS and it will stop.

Have I just got an early build and can this be fixed with a software update, or is the system just crap to begin with? I understand its an 'assistant' but it really doesn't do much, other than the active cruise which modulated speed on the highway to make the driving less stressful. This will NOT save you in the event of a potential accident

[ezmaass]

This has nothing to do with whether or not the technology can handle it... rather it's about liability. There is a self steering option for low speed (traffic jam assist) in Europe and other places outside of the US. For whatever reason, BMW North America decided it didn't want the option here in the litigious US.

I also happen to believe that the limit of braking pressure is the same concern. The system, as you said, will warn you (with enough time to apply full braking yourself) but it won't apply full braking pressure... otherwise known as "emergency braking." So why you may ask? Well, after thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion it's the same reason we don't have traffic jam assist with self-steering here in the US... legal concerns.

Under emergency braking, there are more considerations usually in-play than simply whether or not you're going to hit the vehicle in front of you. What if there's a semi truck riding your bumper? It may be a lose/lose situation, but I don't think BMW NA is ready to accept the liability of being the "last line of defense" between you and an accident. In this case, they can say, "we only take it up to X point, and from there the driver intervenes and makes the FINAL decision as to how to handle the circumstance."

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but it's the vibe I get. Either way, I'm very happy with ACC w/ Stop & Go... it saves my foot a lot of work on long trips, and it works relatively well in most circumstances. I'd love for it to steer like MB's version or BMW's own European version, but I'm fine with it... keeps me from completely disengaging!

[Apple Corps]

I would second those comments based on my experience with the option. It really does provide for a more relaxed drive and yet, as you said, KEEPS YOU ENGAGED.

[ErnestHouse]

The BMW 5 series has for years ranked low amongst the cars that claim to have collision protection. Search on "BMW collision braking" and you'll find other threads. I've suspected some of this is the responsibility of the BMW "enthusiasts" as they lobby against such things that in their mind take the driver out of the equation. Nevermind it's an option and you can turn it off.

The technical manual for the LCI shows clearly that BMW has implemented more capability in the 7 series so the litigious argument is suspect. Note the attachment showing that the 7 series MY 2012 brakes to a standstill while the 5 series implementation does not. My experience (and others) is that the 5 series does not in fact brake in response to stopped or stationary targets.

As I understand it, the basic system is from BOSCH and each car maker decides how much of it to implement. Audi for example has had the ability to stop since MY 2013 while BMW's implementation in the 5 series only "mitigates" (legal beagle speak for reduces speed to lower the damage not prevent it).

This may change as cheap cars implement it and BMW continues to be embarrassed in the annual tests and the Subaru and MB commercials or not if they cave to the enthusiast mindset.

As for the technology that keeps the car in the lane, much was made of this for MY 2014 and articles were written that it would be included in cars made in November 2013 but something happened and BMW mysteriously backed off of it, even for Europe. My MY 2014 owner's manual also has something called Attentiveness Assistant that apparently does not exist either but was in the configurator as well.

[AP]

very interesting, that video is amazing.
I've got a April 2012 F10 with ACC and the emergency brake feature is really just a bonus on top of ACC. I agree and wish it did more as it seems the competition are head as regards this.

In my experience , if there is a car in front , ie there is a car symbol displayed for the cruise control , then the system will brake. If there isn't a car within range, I'm not so sure.

To be honest though, it is not something I am going to test out for obvious reasons. On the few occasions where cars have stopped suddenly on motorways, I have intervened as I didn't feel up to waiting to see if ACC would take control. As previously said , it does keep you in the loop which I od feel is an important thing to do. having automatics is all fine and good but the human is at the end of the day in control.

I'm not sure from personal experience if the system is better at lower speeds , although to be fair , I only have acc on on motorways, or occasionally in heavy town traffic if I'm feeling lazy. In heavy town traffic, with acc in control, it simply doesn't get in to that scenario where it has to brake that heavily.

I think this is an interesting thread and am interested to see what other think about their acc in this respect. I get the impression that at least in the UK, its not a common option on cars, not sure what the take up is like in other markets such as the US for example.

Anyone have any stories as regards it?

My only one is where I was travelling along at about 40mph on a motorway , a car changed lanes in front of me. I braked to keep a suitable distance in front and then that car without warning just slammed on it brakes. I did the same (my foot was already over the brake pedal). I also saw the big red car appear in the HUD - whether emergency braking was doing anything behind the scenes I don't know as I was braking before the alert was seen on the HUD.
With maximum pressure on the brake and the ABS working overtime, I stopped in time, only to worry about what the car behind would do! No doubt adaptive brake lights flashing away made it obvious to the car behind that I have slammed on my brakes and they stopped in time but were then hit by a car from behind them.

[bayarea328xit]

Originally Posted by ErnestHouse

The BMW 5 series has for years ranked low amongst the cars that claim to have collision protection. Search on "BMW collision braking" and you'll find other threads. I've suspected some of this is the responsibility of the BMW "enthusiasts" as they lobby against such things that in their mind take the driver out of the equation. Nevermind it's an option and you can turn it off.

The technical manual for the LCI shows clearly that BMW has implemented more capability in the 7 series so the litigious argument is suspect. Note the attachment showing that the 7 series MY 2012 brakes to a standstill while the 5 series implementation does not. My experience (and others) is that the 5 series does not in fact brake in response to stopped or stationary targets.

As I understand it, the basic system is from BOSCH and each car maker decides how much of it to implement. Audi for example has had the ability to stop since MY 2013 while BMW's implementation in the 5 series only "mitigates" (legal beagle speak for reduces speed to lower the damage not prevent it).

This may change as cheap cars implement it and BMW continues to be embarrassed in the annual tests and the Subaru and MB commercials or not if they cave to the enthusiast mindset.

As for the technology that keeps the car in the lane, much was made of this for MY 2014 and articles were written that it would be included in cars made in November 2013 but something happened and BMW mysteriously backed off of it, even for Europe. My MY 2014 owner's manual also has something called Attentiveness Assistant that apparently does not exist either but was in the configurator as well.

Take a look at the 3rd paragraph in the first image below…latest generation available if you get 5AT...

[ErnestHouse]

Originally Posted by bayarea328xit

Take a look at the 3rd paragraph in the first image below…latest generation available if you get 5AT...

I don't know what your point is. It claims to brake, yes, but it doesn't claim to brake to a stop like the 7 series implementation does. 5AT on the 5 series LCI supposedly* applies braking to "mitigate" or reduce the collision speed ergo reduce the damage but not avoid it by stopping in time. You will have an accident that you would not have if you were in an Audi, Volvo, Subaru and perhaps some others.

*I've had the collision light and alarm warnings and the brakes primed but NEVER had it apply any braking.

[ErnestHouse]

Originally Posted by AP

...Anyone have any stories as regards it?
...I also saw the big red car appear in the HUD - whether emergency braking was doing anything behind the scenes I don't know as I was braking before the alert was seen on the HUD….

The consensus I've reached and others have agreed on is that when your car has not "locked on" to a car and there are stationary cars ahead, you will crash into them unless you stop. Also, a car ahead to which you have locked on that moves out of the lane revealing a car ahead of it will also result in a crash as your car will not reacquire the new car in time.

There are two levels of collision warning explained in the manual. Red car on Dash/HUD and audible alarm. My understanding is that at one of those points, the brakes are primed and pads moved closer to enable minimum reaction time and the brakes will work at full braking regardless of the driver's pressure. That is, as long as the driver reacts, the brakes will apply maximum braking power regardless of pressure on the pedal.

[bayarea328xit]

Originally Posted by ErnestHouse

I don't know what your point is. It claims to brake, yes, but it doesn't claim to brake to a stop like the 7 series implementation does. 5AT on the 5 series LCI supposedly* applies braking to "mitigate" or reduce the collision speed ergo reduce the damage but not avoid it by stopping in time. You will have an accident that you would not have if you were in an Audi, Volvo, Subaru and perhaps some others.

*I've had the collision light and alarm warnings and the brakes primed but NEVER had it apply any braking.

Is this portion of the text ambiguous?

"In the BMW 5 series LCI[,] the generation of the collision warning with breaking function introduced with the F01/F02 LCI is used, which permits higher braking deceleration thanks to the fusion of radar and image data."

Note: this only applies if you add option 5AT.

[ezmaass]

The collision warning system can (and will) apply the brakes... but it's going to do it as a last resort if you, the driver, haven't intervened yet. There are two (really three) phases to the system, as I understand it:

1. Visual Warning - you'll see a red car on the dash/HUD if you're approaching a slower car at a rapid pace and will potentially hit it. The brakes are "primed" - brought close to the rotors, prepared to apply fully braking pressure.

2. Visual and Audible Warning - if you still don't act in the above situation, a beeping noise begins. At this point, you still have time to react. The car wants you to step on the brake.

3. Car Intervenes with Braking - This is the "last resort"... you've failed to intervene, and the car now applies the brakes.

If you've gotten to step 3, you've dropped the ball... and most people here probably haven't experienced step 3 because they're just attentive drivers. You'd otherwise be in an accident in any other car.

Keep in mind that if the car isn't actively using ACC, braking is only applied at speeds below 37mph when collision detection is working. When ACC is active, you can be cruising at 80mph and still have the car apply the brakes if the collision warning system goes off. However, the COUNTER to that statement is that if collision warning goes off while you're using ACC, it means that you're unlikely to avoid a collision unless you help intervene. The car can't (and doesn't) apply the full braking force available... why? I don't know - that's the mystery here. I happen to think it's about legality and BMW wanting to remain one step removed from the final decision that leads, or doesn't, to a crash. But regardless of the guesstimate, the fact is you'll need to intervene if you're using ACC and the collision warning goes off... at this point you'll feel that the car is already braking, but the available braking force isn't enough to avoid the collision. I've had this happen a number of times on the highway (especially using only 1 or 2 bars of distance), so I'm plenty familiar with the circumstance.

Aside from using ACC, when it's NOT in use, the I recall that manual stating that the system can bring the car to a complete stop (under 37mph). I've not attempted to try it out. Perhaps a good test (for someone willing to set it up and video the experiment) would be to setup a tarp or other soft object in a parking lot to appear as an immovable object and drive towards it, where there's no harm done if the car fails to stop.

[ErnestHouse]

Originally Posted by bayarea328xit

Is this portion of the text ambiguous?...

Yes. I have 5AT. There is no end to unclear words on this. I sat with my dealer and the head of the repair department and they made no bones about it that the LCI would not brake to a standstill and avoid a collision. We got into the car and played the video in the onboard user manual and it did not actually say the car would stop.

IMHO, ACC with Stop and Go plus DAP cannot be trusted to stop the car like the others do. It won't handle stationary objects like the chart claims. It's good for reducing stress on a crowded highway a little but that's about it. Without a lock on a car in front, it cannot be trusted to stop if you are distracted. YMMV

[ezmaass]

Originally Posted by ErnestHouse

Yes. I have 5AT. There is no end to unclear words on this. I sat with my dealer and the head of the repair department and they made no bones about it that the LCI would not brake to a standstill and avoid a collision. We got into the car and played the video in the onboard user manual and it did not actually say the car would stop.

IMHO, ACC with Stop and Go plus DAP cannot be trusted to stop the car like the others do. It won't handle stationary objects like the chart claims. It's good for reducing stress on a crowded highway a little but that's about it. Without a lock on a car in front, it cannot be trusted to stop if you are distracted. YMMV

Ernest - away from home at the moment, but I'll check my manual when I get home. I thought I recalled reading that cars equipped with ACC used both the camera and radar systems full-time for collision warning, and if so equipped could brake and bring the car to a stop. Then again, it may be another issue altogether is the manual says one thing and the car does another!

As I said above, I'd love to see someone setup an experiment and video it. I'd do it myself, but I doubt I'll find the time in the near term. I think it would be very interesting to simulate a stationary object using something soft/movable and drive at it to see what happens. It would be great for people to know how this really works.

[ErnestHouse]

Yup. I had to read my manual over and over. And I showed it to my dealer to no end. Attached is one of two places in the 5 GT manual that says "it can bring the vehicle to a stop".

I tested everything on my car but this collision warning/braking and the pedestrian braking are two I could not figure out. The target has to look like a car. I think BMW would be very embarrassed should someone come up with a test and video it. In fact I'd assert if it worked so well, there'd be a video on it already.

[AP]

You may have already read about this, but thsi article is about a crash test they did with ACC enabled. There is a video as well if you search around the internet.
It obvious doesn't stop teh car in time but does lessen the impact (although it still looks like quite a shunt!)

http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/05/26/wo...-intervention/

This is based upon a 2010 model so as people have stated here, the technology may / has changed since.

[ErnestHouse]

I drilled into that article searching for the video and only found this page with an embedded youtube video that is now "Private"
http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/04/25/vi...safety-center/

Looking further, I found a 2014 IIHS video and article that explains things a bit. Basically, it depends on the speed you are traveling. Ignoring the steering capability of the Hyundai which BMW pulled after promising it, the BMW system on the 5 series cannot do what the Hyundai is shown doing seemingly at highway speed: AVOID A COLLISION. The BMW implementation only mitigates it.

According to the 2014 IIHS article, the 2014 X5 and 5 Series models outfitted with both camera and radar packages will in fact come to a stop when traveling at 12 MPH. But in the the 25 mph IIHS test, collision was not avoided: "impact speed was reduced by 24 mph". Camera only models reduce impact but do not avoid collision even at 12mph.

"BMW offers an improved front crash prevention system on 2014 models that secures high marks for the X5, 5 series and 3 series. The X5 and 5 series earn superior ratings when equipped with a system that uses both a camera and radar."
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/sr/statusreport/article/49/4/1

[ezmaass]

Originally Posted by ErnestHouse

I drilled into that article searching for the video and only found this page with an embedded youtube video that is now "Private"
http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/04/25/vi...safety-center/

Looking further, I found a 2014 IIHS video and article that explains things a bit. Basically, it depends on the speed you are traveling. Ignoring the steering capability of the Hyundai which BMW pulled after promising it, the BMW system on the 5 series cannot do what the Hyundai is shown doing seemingly at highway speed: AVOID A COLLISION. The BMW implementation only mitigates it.

According to the 2014 IIHS article, the 2014 X5 and 5 Series models outfitted with both camera and radar packages will in fact come to a stop when traveling at 12 MPH. But in the the 25 mph IIHS test, collision was not avoided: "impact speed was reduced by 24 mph". Camera only models reduce impact but do not avoid collision even at 12mph.

"BMW offers an improved front crash prevention system on 2014 models that secures high marks for the X5, 5 series and 3 series. The X5 and 5 series earn superior ratings when equipped with a system that uses both a camera and radar."
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/sr/statusreport/article/49/4/1

So this looks to be exactly the test I was suggesting - the "fake car" test.

It looks like all cars were only tested under 25mph. The BMW X5 and 5-series looked to have scored the highest mark, which admittedly doesn't seem to care if the car came to a complete stop or just substantially slowed to a near stop.

Honestly, I'm fine with it. Look at the length of time it takes to stop the car. Three things need to occur here:

1. Visual Warning
2. Visual + Audible Warning
3. Automatic Braking

Even the automatic braking takes about a second or two to stop the car. So, you'd have to be literally asleep at the wheel to get this far "down the stack" of events. I don't know about others, but if I ever got to #3, my foot would be on the brake before the car could come to a stop by itself. I think most peoples' knee-jerk reaction would be to slam on the brake if you're hearing seeing a visual warning, hearing a beeping warning, AND now you start feeling the car braking itself. I don't think many people are going to ride it out and see if the car stops by itself. Chances are good that the driver is going to intervene even IF the car would have otherwise stopped itself.

Would I like to see BMW constantly do better here? Sure. But I do believe the system is pretty effective even as-is. Like I said, you have 3 levels of events that are telling you something bad is about to happen, and it really shouldn't ever get passed #1, no less all the way through #3 to a complete stop unless you're completely asleep.

As for braking from highway speed, the ACC system can do it... but only if it's active. I'd actually prefer for the car not to intervene at highway speeds UNLESS I have ACC active, and I'm expecting it may do that... otherwise, you need to take into account that computers are not infallible, and emergency braking at highway speeds in the wrong / false circumstance can be pretty dangerous in and of itself. With ACC, I feel as if I've given the car "permission" to temporarily control the gas and brake... and therefore I'm expecting that it may intervene, and I drive accordingly.

[Noggie]

I dont want an auto pilot making me a passenger in my own car.
Then I would take public transport.

These automated systems are in one way good, but on the other hand it allows you to do other things than driving, while you should drive.

Perhaps that is why BMW has held back on somee of these features, to make sure you are actually driving the car, not playing with your phone, putting on make-up or things that takes your attention away from driving.

I rearly see the collission warning while driving.
But then again my first car did not even have power steering or abs brakes.
I find these new features to be a good addition for a mometary lapse of my concentration, not to replace me as a driver.

[ErnestHouse]

Originally Posted by Noggie

...I find these new features to be a good addition for a mometary lapse of my concentration, not to replace me as a driver.

I think that's the enthusiast's strawman argument. It isn't about replacing you as a driver. It's about safety. You can turn it off.

The collision avoidance feature makes the car safer no matter if a lapse in concentration is putting your makeup on, looking at the Navi or dealing with a driver swerving in the next lane. Whether it's trundling around the residentials at 25 or the highway at 55. It happens to everyone and for some, when it's at the wrong time, has disastrous results; Unless they're driving an MB, Subaru, Volvo and apparently now Hyundai.

[Noggie]

I think we need to realize that while BMW probably has the technology in other models, they dont put it in all their models.
The e60'got a head up display in 2005, the E90 launched in 2007 never got it, not even at the facelift. Why?
My 1990 850i has ASC, on the e36 this was an option from 93-96, and standard from 97.

My point being, the higher class BMW you buy the more gadgets you get, the brand new 3 and 4 series does not come with an electric steerig column and heated steerigwheel.

This has been BMWs policy all along, the 7 has stuff the 5 dont have, and the 5 stuff that the 3 and 4 dont have ect.
If this techonolgy exists on the current 7, we may see it on the next generation 5.

The hyunday you mention is probably a brand new model? Launched this year perhaps, i guess making such a feature in abrand new model is easier than retrofitting it into an existing model, probably why the e90 never got a HUD.

I guess we will see when the new 5 comes out, In late 2017 as the 2018 5 if BMW sticks to their normal model lifespan.

[ErnestHouse]

Originally Posted by Noggie

...My point being, the higher class BMW you buy the more gadgets you get, the brand new 3 and 4 series does not come with an electric steerig column and heated steerigwheel…..

That's the mis-calculation. Braking to a stop is a safety issue available on lesser cars and competitive cars (MB and Audi) but not on BMW. BMW has been scoring low for 3 years in these tests and each year the BMW response is "wait till next year". Braking to a stop is now jacks or better. It's safety. Not a luxury like self closing doors and heated steering wheels. At least to some.

[ezmaass]

Originally Posted by ErnestHouse

That's the mis-calculation. Braking to a stop is a safety issue available on lesser cars and competitive cars (MB and Audi) but not on BMW. BMW has been scoring low for 3 years in these tests and each year the BMW response is "wait till next year". Braking to a stop is now jacks or better. It's safety. Not a luxury like self closing doors and heated steering wheels. At least to some.

Ernest, I'm really trying hard to see what your gripe is here, though. Yes, I can understand that you're saying a Hyundai may do a better job at coming to a full stop. But so what?

When your BMW flashes at you... and then BEEPS at you... and then starts BRAKING for you... do you really need any more intervention before you act on your own?? I'd like to know WHAT driver is actually receiving all three layers of these warnings and still failing to act, requiring the car to come to a full stop on its own? It seems hard to believe that even a dim-witted driver wouldn't react at one of those three phases.

My experience has been that the visual warning comes on pretty early. The beeping stage still allows you to stop without engaging ABS or any tire screeching. So, the warnings are there with plenty of time to react. At the point where the car is braking, it's probably a moot point - my foot is going to be on the brake pedal pressing it hard... not waiting to see if the car stops on its own.

Like I said, I get it that you want to see BMW do what you consider to be "as good as Hyundai"... but do consider that it's somewhat a moot point unless you're unconscious at the wheel... and, in which case, stopped or experiencing a 1mph collision, I think you have bigger problems to deal with at that point than some minor bumper scratches.

[ErnestHouse]

Originally Posted by ezmaass

…when your BMW flashes at you... and then BEEPS at you... and then starts BRAKING for you... do you really need any more intervention before you act on your own?? ....

In the cases where the MB and Audi will save you from your distraction, you won't see the BMW collision warning visual. And as has been laid bare in this thread and the recent IIHS tests, when the brakes go on over 12 mph, the braking only mitigates and you are going to crash no matter how you intervene. Not true with the Audi, MB and others. BMW's aren't as safe and BMW is behind the competition in this area.

It was this time last year when the information about the LCI and it's upgraded DAP and Traffic assistant were shown in the configurator and guides. It took a year but now we know BMW couldn't deliver. Buyer beware.