[clarence]

Originally Posted by Jon D

3. Although drive dynamic is separately listed, this is not available without adaptive drive.

It is available with just the sport auto, but the rocker switch will only have normal, sport & sport+. Only DDC &/or Dynamic Drive comes with comfort setting.

[slimer]

good morning guys.

I am considering ordering 5-series as well and I am thinking of ordering dynamic drive.
It is quite expensive here and I would not mind on saving that money.
The problem is that at dealers, all 5-series are with adaptive drive.
I asked them to test drive one without but they said that they do not have any without..

I remember driving E60 M with 18" alloys and that was a great combination between sport and comfort for me.
With that in mind I suspect that F10 standard would be just fine(less comfort) but good enough.

I am in doubt.

[rhinosaur]

Hey all!

I am about to advance in ordering a 535d Touring with the M sports package (among other stuff). However, I am in that final configuration stage where you wonder if adding "that other thing" makes a difference or not. I am wondering if you could give me some insights as to whether the Adaptive Drive option is really worthwhile adding or not. So far I have only included the Dynamic Dampening Control, but not the Adaptive Drive.
Would it make a huge difference? What are the pros of having this? I assume the car's behavior in corners will be improved, but will that be noticeable enough? Will it also help to avoid an uneven tyre wear, for example? Will it be noticeable only when you really demand a lot from the car or will it be just the same as not having it for the most part you are a relaxed driver?

The price difference is round about +2.300 EUR if I add it or leave my config as it is (i.e., with the dynamic dampening control).

By the way, my current point of reference is a 530d E60 with normal suspension and 18" M135 wheels. I think it has a bit too much of roll and pitch but it is definitely comfortable!

Maybe Jon D already has the new car and can give us a review of the system.

Thanks!

[davesf]

My US 550xi has 19" wheels, Dynamic Damper Control (in the US it comes with Sport) and Active Roll Stabilization (which I think is the US name for Adaptive Drive).

Here is my experience and research informed theory about these features...AFAIK...

1) DDC only controls the damper rate, not the spring rate. DDC equipped cars have a softer spring rate than M-suspension cars, because they need it to provide a soft-spring comfort setting. However, this means they retain a soft spring rate even in the sport setting, only the dampers are tightened up to provide a tighter ride.

2) If you want a ride closer to M-stiffness, you'll need to install stiffer aftermarket springs. This will also have an effect on your comfort ride.

3) A car with comfortably soft-springs (and a soft anti-roll-bar) will tend to roll more in cornering. ARS (Adaptive Drive) is an active system to counter-act that roll, and allows the car to ride "sport flat" in corners even though it's softer and more comfortable over bumps.

4) ARS has less to do in a car with M-suspension. Because it has stiffer springs and anti-roll bar for "sport handling always", it already doesn't roll much in corners. Also, an active-anti-roll system isn't desirable in sports driving, because when pushing the limits, one needs the feedback of slight body roll to help judge cornering forces. The large majority of racecars have passive (not active) anti-roll bars.

5) From experience, ARS is quite effective at allowing a comfortable ride to remain flat in 50mph sweeping highway corners (which we have in abundance near San Francisco). It's hard to say how much it's in action at lower speeds or around town. I

6) I bought ARS as a 'nice to have' and 'try it out' kind of feature. It's a hydraulic system, so it might have a minor impact on gas mileage. Hydraulics are fairly reliable, but in the long run it is something else mechanical to break. Based on my knowledge and experience, I'm pro ARS... especially for high-center-of-gravity cars like the X5/X6. For 5-series gentle-city or straight-highway driving, it's possibly less important. ARS can't do much without cornering forces to counteract.

7) Especially with RFTs, 18" wheels setups are more durable and more comfortable than 19/20" setups, but many find 19/20" setups look better.

[rhinosaur]

Originally Posted by davesf

My US 550xi has 19" wheels, Dynamic Damper Control (in the US it comes with Sport) and Active Roll Stabilization (which I think is the US name for Adaptive Drive).

Here is my experience and research informed theory about these features...AFAIK...

1) DDC only controls the damper rate, not the spring rate. DDC equipped cars have a softer spring rate than M-suspension cars, because they need it to provide a soft-spring comfort setting. However, this means they retain a soft spring rate even in the sport setting, only the dampers are tightened up to provide a tighter ride.

2) If you want a ride closer to M-stiffness, you'll need to install stiffer aftermarket springs. This will also have an effect on your comfort ride.

3) A car with comfortably soft-springs (and a soft anti-roll-bar) will tend to roll more in cornering. ARS (Adaptive Drive) is an active system to counter-act that roll, and allows the car to ride "sport flat" in corners even though it's softer and more comfortable over bumps.

4) ARS has less to do in a car with M-suspension. Because it has stiffer springs and anti-roll bar for "sport handling always", it already doesn't roll much in corners. Also, an active-anti-roll system isn't desirable in sports driving, because when pushing the limits, one needs the feedback of slight body roll to help judge cornering forces. The large majority of racecars have passive (not active) anti-roll bars.

5) From experience, ARS is quite effective at allowing a comfortable ride to remain flat in 50mph sweeping highway corners (which we have in abundance near San Francisco). It's hard to say how much it's in action at lower speeds or around town. I

6) I bought ARS as a 'nice to have' and 'try it out' kind of feature. It's a hydraulic system, so it might have a minor impact on gas mileage. Hydraulics are fairly reliable, but in the long run it is something else mechanical to break. Based on my knowledge and experience, I'm pro ARS... especially for high-center-of-gravity cars like the X5/X6. For 5-series gentle-city or straight-highway driving, it's possibly less important. ARS can't do much without cornering forces to counteract.

7) Especially with RFTs, 18" wheels setups are more durable and more comfortable than 19/20" setups, but many find 19/20" setups look better.

Thank you so much for the very informative reply, davesf.

If I have to choose, I'll have comfort instead of stiffness. This Touring's focus will be more of a family car, despite the engine's specs. Further, not only are the roads in Portugal starting to lack in terms of pavement quality—due to the economic downturn—, they are also twisting and winding for the most part, except for highways, of course.
Therefore, I am becoming more and more convinced about adding the Adaptive Drive option as well as having the 18" wheels to avoid bumpy rides.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by rhinosaur

Maybe Jon D already has the new car and can give us a review of the system.

I've had my 535d for 15 months/13k miles and, next to the sublime dual-turbo/sport auto drivetrain, I consider AD/VDC to be the car's best feature and the one I use most of all.
You really notice the difference between different modes - a smooth ride over rough surfaces in 'comfort' mode and high-speed cornering with virtually no body roll, but no harsh jarring, in 'sport' and 'sport+' modes.
I drove the new M5 last week and, whilst it was a lot of fun, I was relieved to get back into my 535d - the experience reinforced my already high opinion of this very highly accomplished car.
I would also highly recommend the comfort seats and adaptive bi-xenon headlights.

[rhinosaur]

Originally Posted by Jon D

I've had my 535d for 15 months/13k miles and, next to the sublime dual-turbo/sport auto drivetrain, I consider AD/VDC to be the car's best feature and the one I use most of all.
You really notice the difference between different modes - a smooth ride over rough surfaces in 'comfort' mode and high-speed cornering with virtually no body roll, but no harsh jarring, in 'sport' and 'sport+' modes.
I drove the new M5 last week and, whilst it was a lot of fun, I was relieved to get back into my 535d - the experience reinforced my already high opinion of this very highly accomplished car.
I would also highly recommend the comfort seats and adaptive bi-xenon headlights.

Thanks for the feedback, Jon!
Regarding the seats, have you tried the sports seats too? Because I was leaning towards the sports seats instead of the comfort seats. Do the latter provide adequate lateral support in corners, for example?

[davesf]

i think the multi contour seats are part of what provide the luxury of the 5 series. don't pass on them lightly.

the sport auto package, however, you can pass on. it doesn't change the transmission, just aesthetics. it adds the paddle shifters on the steering wheel and changes the shape on the console shifter. i have SAT, but i wouldn't order it again. the paddle shifters just are not used on a luxury cruiser. you can still manually shift with the console shifter even without the SAT package. if you want to spend on aesthetics, buy the ceramiccontrols package.

[delvek]

I found adaptive drive and ACS springs to give me the option to give feedback that one would want on a track. Excellent!

The sport transmission is more then just paddles, they have different hardware as has been discussed in a previous thread with diagrams from ZF. The shift speeds are different provided by the S "sport" mode.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by rhinosaur

Thanks for the feedback, Jon!
Regarding the seats, have you tried the sports seats too? Because I was leaning towards the sports seats instead of the comfort seats. Do the latter provide adequate lateral support in corners, for example?

I haven't tried the sport seats so I can't comment, but the comfort seats have adjustable side bolsters which provide good lateral support.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by delvek

The sport transmission is more then just paddles, they have different hardware as has been discussed in a previous thread with diagrams from ZF. The shift speeds are different provided by the S "sport" mode.

Agreed and considering the low cost of this option, it can only have a positive effect on resale value.

[delvek]

Originally Posted by Jon D

Agreed and considering the low cost of this option, it can only have a positive effect on resale value.

Very true, the cost compared to the full purchase price is nominal.

It's important to note that even in sport+ mode moving into S transmission mode on the shifter still engages those shift points, it is two systems, AD and sport transmissions, separate but working together.

[davesf]

Originally Posted by Jon D

I haven't tried the sport seats so I can't comment, but the comfort seats have adjustable side bolsters which provide good lateral support.

Agreed. Bear in mind, US cars do not receive adjustable side-bolsters on the 5-series, only the 7-series. These forums have speculated that it's due to larger average americans. My bet is on something related to crash-safety. Regardless, no adjustable side-bolsters on US cars. (i.e. USA gets 18-way seats, not 20-way) Enjoy those 20-ways in Europe, wish I had them.

The sport transmission is more then just paddles, they have different hardware as has been discussed in a previous thread with diagrams from ZF. The shift speeds are different provided by the S "sport" mode.

Reference?

I have seen lots of speculation, but I have not seen any confirmed information from BMW or ZF that the sport-auto package receives different transmission parts or config. BMW's description of SAT describes the paddle-shifters and alternate console shifter, but does not make any claims about performance deltas from the normal transmission (it carefully claims 'fast' shifts, not 'faster' shifts). I have only seen BMW parts catalog confirmation that the 550 receives a ZF transmission rated for higher torque than the the 535/528.

Likewise, I've seen speculation about SAT shift-speeds, but no confirmed information. ZF's website merely claims their 8-speed transmission shifts in 200ms. We do know that the "sport mode" changes rpm shift-points and allows manual shifting with or without the SAT.

Is there any confirmed info from BMW or the BMW parts catalog about SAT having different transmission or config?

[delvek]

Originally Posted by davesf

Agreed. Bear in mind, US cars do not receive adjustable side-bolsters on the 5-series, only the 7-series. These forums have speculated that it's due to larger average americans. My bet is on something related to crash-safety. Regardless, no adjustable side-bolsters on US cars. (i.e. USA gets 18-way seats, not 20-way) Enjoy those 20-ways in Europe, wish I had them.

Reference?

I have seen lots of speculation, but I have not seen any confirmed information from BMW or ZF that the sport-auto package receives different transmission parts or config. BMW's description of SAT describes the paddle-shifters and alternate console shifter, but does not make any claims about performance deltas from the normal transmission (it carefully claims 'fast' shifts, not 'faster' shifts). I have only seen BMW parts catalog confirmation that the 550 receives a ZF transmission rated for higher torque than the the 535/528.

Likewise, I've seen speculation about SAT shift-speeds, but no confirmed information. ZF's website merely claims their 8-speed transmission shifts in 200ms. We do know that the "sport mode" changes rpm shift-points and allows manual shifting with or without the SAT.

Is there any confirmed info from BMW or the BMW parts catalog about SAT having different transmission or config?

I can't use the search function with the iPhone app but this was discussed in great detail when the f10 first came out and we were all discussing the options, etc here.

I am not a tech head but there is a post here illustrating the differences, also I believe the s mode for the transmission is only available on the sport auto.

[delvek]

Also, you can tell the difference in S mode, the characteristics of the transmission noticeably change in that the shift points are adjusted and held.

[rhinosaur]

Today I test drove a 535d 299hp Touring with the M package and 19" wheels. THE-CAR-IS-BRILLIANT! Didn't want to go much faster than 200 km/h since the TD car had summer tires, nor did I adopt an aggressive driving style, wouldn't want to crash the car!

After today, no way I will leave the adaptive drive out of the equation. The way the car changes its behavior when you toggle through the Comfort, Normal or Sport/Sport+ modes is just fantastic! And the chassis is so incredibly reactive! Suddenly my E60 seems like a boat when attacking tight corners or small roundabouts. LOL

I was also impressed with the absolute silence on-board, despite driving with the glass-roof blind open at high speeds.

However, I wasn't very impressed with the lane change alert system (don't know the exact name) and with the speed limit recognition, which didn't catch all the limit signs as I was driving by.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by rhinosaur

Today I test drove a 535d 299hp Touring with the M package and 19" wheels. THE-CAR-IS-BRILLIANT!..

Told you so , glad you enjoyed it.

[davesf]

Originally Posted by delvek

I am not a tech head but there is a post here illustrating the differences, also I believe the s mode for the transmission is only available on the sport auto.

A non-SAT equipped car still gets the "S" mode and manual shifting by moving the shifter to the left. I've seen the speculation threads about the SAT, but nothing I've seen contained any confirmed information, only speculation. It would be interesting to see some confirmed info.

My car has the SAT, and it doesn't seem any different than the non-SAT testdrives (other than the aesthetics of the paddleshifters and SAT center shifter of course). I don't have a strong opinion about which center-shifter I like better, and I think I'd prefer the car without the steering wheel paddles as I don't use them (though it's fine either way). I mean, it's fine to have the SAT, but I'd recommend folks get Nappa or Ceramic Controls before they spend on the SAT (I have both of those as well and like them better than the paddles).

[delvek]

I feel a definite difference in my 550i with 2TB (sport auto) then the F10's I drove without. There is a lot of muddy water with the exact differences and you can read all day long on either side of the fence. Despite this, you also get a much more attractive shifter in leather and the paddles which serve a functional bonus in sport+ by allowing you to manually shift up into 8th.

I think the basic point is, the car is not cheap and for another quid or so, who cares?

For probably one of the better posts on this from the archives I post this too:
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416668

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by davesf

A non-SAT equipped car still gets the "S" mode and manual shifting by moving the shifter to the left. I've seen the speculation threads about the SAT, but nothing I've seen contained any confirmed information, only speculation. It would be interesting to see some confirmed info.

My car has the SAT, and it doesn't seem any different than the non-SAT testdrives (other than the aesthetics of the paddleshifters and SAT center shifter of course). I don't have a strong opinion about which center-shifter I like better, and I think I'd prefer the car without the steering wheel paddles as I don't use them (though it's fine either way). I mean, it's fine to have the SAT, but I'd recommend folks get Nappa or Ceramic Controls before they spend on the SAT (I have both of those as well and like them better than the paddles).

In general auto mode with the car in its "normal" modes, there is no difference. But the way of the SAT shifter looks and the proper shift paddles, it really makes for a good experience.

The SAT ( At least on the E60 ) has "6" modes compared to the standard 3, of Auto, Sport, and Manual. With SAT you have the option of a sport button in the center console which changes the driving dynamics of the car significantly. The ARS tightens, throttle response changes, most of all the shift points are significantly different. The car turns into a whole different animal. Best part is, the shifts are very close to a DCT with SAT, very quick, and somewhat abrupt for a 1-2 shift which feels well, "cool"

On the E60 the transmission already has those modes, but with SAT you can basically force them, and on the normal boxes, the computer automatically picks the program from Xtreme Economy to Xtreme Sport, with the SAT it just pushes that bar up, combined with the tighter steering and ARS the car feels extremely confident at higher speeds & more spirited driving.

Sorry if this is just a bunch of clutter to some, ( I know I wasn't exactly clear with what I typed ), but I'm getting annoyed to those saying SAT doesn't make a difference. It does.

For F10 "If it is still not clear, think of 2TB as a FIRM/SOFT switch on the stabilizers. ZDH is a FIRMER/SOFTER switch on the stabilizers AND the dampers with an electronic brain behind it to do it on-the-fly and depending on the road conditions. That's why one is $500 and the other is $2,700" pretty much sums it up from that other thread posted above. Which is true sans the dampers on the E60. The car becomes rock solid on the M-Sport setup with SAT On. Still has a bit of giveaway in the first 5% or so, so it isn't neck shattering as on the E92 Sport's

[dgmc]

Originally Posted by Jon D

I drove the new M5 last week and, whilst it was a lot of fun, I was relieved to get back into my 535d - the experience reinforced my already high opinion of this very highly accomplished car.

Hi Jon,

Very interested to hear you got a run in new M5 and would be grateful if you could provide a review/comparison with your 535d with Adaptive Drive? Obviously mainly relating to suspension, handling and ride quality.

Thanks,

David

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

In general auto mode with the car in its "normal" modes, there is no difference. But the way of the SAT shifter looks and the proper shift paddles, it really makes for a good experience.

The SAT ( At least on the E60 ) has "6" modes compared to the standard 3, of Auto, Sport, and Manual. With SAT you have the option of a sport button in the center console which changes the driving dynamics of the car significantly. The ARS tightens, throttle response changes, most of all the shift points are significantly different. The car turns into a whole different animal. Best part is, the shifts are very close to a DCT with SAT, very quick, and somewhat abrupt for a 1-2 shift which feels well, "cool"

On the E60 the transmission already has those modes, but with SAT you can basically force them, and on the normal boxes, the computer automatically picks the program from Xtreme Economy to Xtreme Sport, with the SAT it just pushes that bar up, combined with the tighter steering and ARS the car feels extremely confident at higher speeds & more spirited driving.

Sorry if this is just a bunch of clutter to some, ( I know I wasn't exactly clear with what I typed ), but I'm getting annoyed to those saying SAT doesn't make a difference. It does.

For F10 "If it is still not clear, think of 2TB as a FIRM/SOFT switch on the stabilizers. ZDH is a FIRMER/SOFTER switch on the stabilizers AND the dampers with an electronic brain behind it to do it on-the-fly and depending on the road conditions. That's why one is $500 and the other is $2,700" pretty much sums it up from that other thread posted above. Which is true sans the dampers on the E60. The car becomes rock solid on the M-Sport setup with SAT On. Still has a bit of giveaway in the first 5% or so, so it isn't neck shattering as on the E92 Sport's

This is all incorrect for the F10.