[bm323]

I understand from tadtaggert and kfiend that tuners eg RD, Eibach and HnR have springs for adaptive drive and they are different from non adaptive drive ones. To me, this suggests that the springs in the F10 standard suspension are different from that in an F10 with adaptive drive. I suppose, the adaptive drive's normal mode seeks to approximate the drive of a F10 with the standard suspension, but my recollection was that there is a difference in the drive (as in, I preferred the standard suspension compared to adaptive drive's normal mode in that the F10 was more connected; I'm not talking about AD's sport mode or its anti-roll aspects here). If I'm correct, this goes to affirm my view that it's preferable to go for a change in springs and fixed anti-roll bars (rather than opting for AD) for one who seeks a tighter chassis/sportier drive. (AD's active anti-roll bars however work perfectly.) The M sport suspension may not give a tight enough chassis if adaptive drive's sport mode approximates M-sport suspension.

Anyone with any info on how the springs for adaptive drive and non AD are different?

[HighlandPete]

I'm not surprised you have started a new topic on this subject. Since reading a few comments in other threads I have been thinking on this and I'm sure this subject will be heavily debated over the next few years.

How I see it, AD gives different suspension characteristics, it is intended to, so to just add something like stiff/short springs is sort of asking for it to be different in an unknown way, or at least compromise it. My first thoughts, any modifications would then benefit from software modifications as well, or I envisage conflicts, or possibly strange anomalies from weird inputs to the control systems.

I see if drivers want the passive system characteristics, go for fixed components like the 'mechanical' M-sport and modify from those. As we move more into ICS - Integrated Chassis Systems, we are dealing with more than just swapping a set of springs.

Just remember tuning makes things different, not always better.

Will be an interesting topic.

HighlandPete

[EdM5]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

How I see it, AD gives different suspension characteristics, it is intended to, so to just add something like stiff/short springs is sort of asking for it to be different in an unknown way, or at least compromise it. My first thoughts, any modifications would then benefit from software modifications as well, or I envisage conflicts, or possibly strange anomalies from weird inputs to the control systems.

HighlandPete

It is interesting that in Holland, you can order shorter (and stiffer?) AG Schnitzer springs for the F10 with adaptive drive. It will lower the car by 30mm.
The set can be ordered trough the official BMW dealership, BMW engineers will install it and full BMW warranties still apply.

[bm323]

Hi HighlandPete, I've forgotten to mention that my views are with reference to very smooth roads generally. With regard to varying road surfaces, I defer my views to yours, AD/VDC with its different modes may more probably suit the drive better with its variable damping control.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by EdwinF10

It is interesting that in Holland, you can order shorter (and stiffer?) AG Schnitzer springs for the F10 with adaptive drive. It will lower the car by 30mm.
The set can be ordered trough the official BMW dealership, BMW engineers will install it and full BMW warranties still apply.

Thanks, this is the first time I'm hearing this. I presume that this option for AG Schnitzer springs is an option only available recently (which may have been due to feedback that the usual AD springs do not give a tight enough chassis, or them being developed only recently by AG Schnitzer)?

Any info from any other country as regards option of other springs from official BMW? Over here, it's only either adaptive drive with BMW's one type springs (which I'm not aware of their details) or M-sport suspension.

[tadtaggert]

I have not driven an F10 with the M Sport suspension, from what I am told however a DHP equipped F10 in sport or sport+ is stiffer/firmer than this.

I have RD springs for my F10, have installed, removed, and reinstalled. The issue for me isn't that they don't provide a sporty ride, it's that comfort/normal become less 'comfort' than I'd like. I'm told that Dinan will be working on a software suspension mod sometime after release of the engine mod, that coupled with 'matching' springs should be what many are looking for.

[kfiend]

Originally Posted by tadtaggert

I have not driven an F10 with the M Sport suspension, from what I am told however a DHP equipped F10 in sport or sport+ is stiffer/firmer than this.

I have RD springs for my F10, have installed, removed, and reinstalled. The issue for me isn't that they don't provide a sporty ride, it's that comfort/normal become less 'comfort' than I'd like. I'm told that Dinan will be working on a software suspension mod sometime after release of the engine mod, that coupled with 'matching' springs should be what many are looking for.

A software mod plus matching springs will be interesting.
Right now I'm still debating due to the fact that we have yet to know the long term effect on the DHP with after market sports springs.

Voiding the warranty and having the sports springs to premature the DHP is not what I'm hoping for.

Over here in Hong Kong, roads are less than perfect, conditions are similar to the road in London. I'm finding the comfort mode a bit woppy but then again sport+ not holding tight enough compare to the m sports suspension that my brother has on his E60. And yes, a drop is definitely welcome for the outlook. But just like what highlandpete has mentioned, modification does not always equal to making things better.

From past experiences, sports springs only works for looks, and not always improving handling. A proper set of matching shocks and springs is always the way to go.

It will be very interesting to see what tuners out there are coming up with in due times. Matching software and springs sounds promising.

[grimlock]

hi bm323!
I was thinking about this too.. albeit from the perspective of stock suspension
I think the bmw variable dampers and antiroll is a very good technology, but the problem is in the application/delivery.
Why? because the settings are 'bundled'
the driver can only select comfort/normal/sport/sport+ , each supposedly with its corresponding adjusted values for 1.damper 2.antiroll 3.steering 4.transmision/throttle
so if i select 'comfort', the car softens each of the 4 variables .. if i chose 'sport+' then each variable is goes to the opposite extreme
what if i am driving sportily on a bumpy road? i would want dampers on soft but steering and tranmission on sport
what if that road is twisty? i would want hardened antiroll ..
you get the point - the driver cannot individually select each of the electronically adjustable components. Its there, but we cant make full use of it!
That is why i think adaptive drive is very cool techonology, and a must for a car like the f10, but forcing us into 4 fixed cubby holes is over-simplication for drivers like us who want more customization..

[grimlock]

bmw makes excellent cars, but they are hogging the remote !

Pete, i worry about the compatability of changing the springs/dampers .. however i have done it with my rims/tires and it worked there, i hope my luck does not run out

kfiend, so what would you say to only eibach spring on stock everything else? bad idea .. oh great

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by tadtaggert

I have not driven an F10 with the M Sport suspension, from what I am told however a DHP equipped F10 in sport or sport+ is stiffer/firmer than this.

I have RD springs for my F10, have installed, removed, and reinstalled. The issue for me isn't that they don't provide a sporty ride, it's that comfort/normal become less 'comfort' than I'd like. I'm told that Dinan will be working on a software suspension mod sometime after release of the engine mod, that coupled with 'matching' springs should be what many are looking for.

cool
so the RD spring for adaptive drive made the ride less comfortable than you'd like?
did sport/sport+ meet your expectactions for handling then?

if they made a software mod for adaptive drive that would be the holy grail ..

btw. how do you like RD springs? im trying for a little lowering (about 1") on stock susp .. which brand of springs would u recommend?

[grimlock]

kfiend
I am curious, how do you find e60 with M suspension? i just want to know your 'standard' ... hehe (i heard e60 is very tight compared to f10..?)

[kfiend]

Originally Posted by grimlock

kfiend
I am curious, how do you find e60 with M suspension? i just want to know your 'standard' ... hehe (i heard e60 is very tight compared to f10..?)

There is for sure less roll with the AD comparing to the E60 with M suspension, but less roll does not mean things are more connected. I drove my bro's E60 and my F10 back to back today on the same route, and I feel more connected in the E60. Yes, the F10 is still fast and very controllable in tight corners, just that, it doesn't feel the same. I can feel the more weight and more lose movements in the F10 comparing to the E60. I was hoping that swapping to lower and stiffer spring will help, but I have doubts now. It could all be down to how the AD shocks adjust itself during cornering.

Fact is, I love my F10. I love how BMW manages to bring the best of both worlds together (lux and sports) and all the new tech it has. I am just hoping/wanting a more compose ride during those tight corners.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by grimlock

hi bm323!
I was thinking about this too.. albeit from the perspective of stock suspension
I think the bmw variable dampers and antiroll is a very good technology, but the problem is in the application/delivery.
Why? because the settings are 'bundled'
the driver can only select comfort/normal/sport/sport+ , each supposedly with its corresponding adjusted values for 1.damper 2.antiroll 3.steering 4.transmision/throttle
so if i select 'comfort', the car softens each of the 4 variables .. if i chose 'sport+' then each variable is goes to the opposite extreme
what if i am driving sportily on a bumpy road? i would want dampers on soft but steering and tranmission on sport
what if that road is twisty? i would want hardened antiroll ..
you get the point - the driver cannot individually select each of the electronically adjustable components. Its there, but we cant make full use of it!
That is why i think adaptive drive is very cool techonology, and a must for a car like the f10, but forcing us into 4 fixed cubby holes is over-simplication for drivers like us who want more customization..

I think you are not understanding the technology correctly. True, we have 3 settings, (sport + is not another system level as such. I'm getting the feeling some users feel it is, rather than a freeing up of the wheels a bit, for the more experienced/enthusiast driver), but underneath the systems are doing what you want. I think this is why some who have tested Adaptive Drive don't get it.

From how it is described in the technical data and BMW Q&A material, you do get the characteristics which you are seeking. For example if you get into the twisties in comfort mode, you do get the tightening up of the roll bars. I tried this in my demo drive, (is something I'm after) and the car is as flat pushing it, as when you drive it steady.

Same if you are going slow over poor surfaces, in a straight line, the roll bars are softened even in sport mode. So we don't get 'copy', as we would if the car was running stiff bars. It can feel wrong to our senses.

It will never feel like a passive sport suspension, it can't possibly be the same, as it tackles the issues from a completely different angle than we are used to.

We don't need a 'hard' sport drive at all times, just drive harder and feel it all tighten up, whatever setting we use.

I think it requires a sea-change in our perception of what it can bring to a sporty drive. We've been 'conditioned' to expect certain reactions, if they don't show, perhaps we feel it is all wrong.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by kfiend

There is for sure less roll with the AD comparing to the E60 with M suspension, but less roll does not mean things are more connected. I drove my bro's E60 and my F10 back to back today on the same route, and I feel more connected in the E60. Yes, the F10 is still fast and very controllable in tight corners, just that, it doesn't feel the same. I can feel the more weight and more lose movements in the F10 comparing to the E60. I was hoping that swapping to lower and stiffer spring will help, but I have doubts now. It could all be down to how the AD shocks adjust itself during cornering.

That's what I've tried to explain, it won't feel the same.

From my perspective the suspension is doing things I would like, but couldn't get from a passive sport suspension. Then I come from the viewpoint that sporty doesn't need to be hard and in your face all the time. A softer more forgiving chassis can mean faster A - B times and much more comfortable drive at the same time.

I appreciate for track use there are different issues, but for the day to day road car on a mixture of surfaces, Adaptive Drive suits me down to the ground.

HighlandPete

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by kfiend

There is for sure less roll with the AD comparing to the E60 with M suspension, but less roll does not mean things are more connected. I drove my bro's E60 and my F10 back to back today on the same route, and I feel more connected in the E60. Yes, the F10 is still fast and very controllable in tight corners, just that, it doesn't feel the same. I can feel the more weight and more lose movements in the F10 comparing to the E60. I was hoping that swapping to lower and stiffer spring will help, but I have doubts now. It could all be down to how the AD shocks adjust itself during cornering.

Fact is, I love my F10. I love how BMW manages to bring the best of both worlds together (lux and sports) and all the new tech it has. I am just hoping/wanting a more compose ride during those tight corners.

I completely agree.
The f10 is so good in a way we really admire it.. but then our human nature kicks in and we want to try to 'improve' it

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I think you are not understanding the technology correctly. True, we have 3 settings, (sport + is not another system level as such. I'm getting the feeling some users feel it is, rather than a freeing up of the wheels a bit, for the more experienced/enthusiast driver), but underneath the systems are doing what you want. I think this is why some who have tested Adaptive Drive don't get it.

From how it is described in the technical data and BMW Q&A material, you do get the characteristics which you are seeking. For example if you get into the twisties in comfort mode, you do get the tightening up of the roll bars. I tried this in my demo drive, (is something I'm after) and the car is as flat pushing it, as when you drive it steady.

Same if you are going slow over poor surfaces, in a straight line, the roll bars are softened even in sport mode. So we don't get 'copy', as we would if the car was running stiff bars. It can feel wrong to our senses.

It will never feel like a passive sport suspension, it can't possibly be the same, as it tackles the issues from a completely different angle than we are used to.

We don't need a 'hard' sport drive at all times, just drive harder and feel it all tighten up, whatever setting we use.

I think it requires a sea-change in our perception of what it can bring to a sporty drive. We've been 'conditioned' to expect certain reactions, if they don't show, perhaps we feel it is all wrong.

HighlandPete

Pete
Im sorry i thought the passive settings of the four modes were the only moving parts.. so besides the 'background' mode, the car has a dynamic/realtime program that adjusts? i read that somewhere too, but I dont truly get how it works with the passive setting ..
So it would work like the other dynamic electronic functions stability control, traction etc. ?
But if u were on sport+ and going over bumpy roads, how would the car decide to soften up or not? does it 'compromise' between the two objectives..?
I would want to know how this dynamic part works with the passive part ..

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

That's what I've tried to explain, it won't feel the same.

From my perspective the suspension is doing things I would like, but couldn't get from a passive sport suspension. Then I come from the viewpoint that sporty doesn't need to be hard and in your face all the time. A softer more forgiving chassis can mean faster A - B times and much more comfortable drive at the same time.

I appreciate for track use there are different issues, but for the day to day road car on a mixture of surfaces, Adaptive Drive suits me down to the ground.

HighlandPete

Probably it feels that way because the car is doing a zillions things with the different electronically variable components .. so it feels distinctly alien to us ..

I guess the closest u can get is to try to find the car in your spec, test it, and see if it meets your expectations..

[grimlock]

In fantasy land i would want 4 buttons with 4 settings for each of the electronically variable components.. like they have for 'Sport' u can choose 'chassis' and/or 'drivetrain' (on my basic dynamic drive, non-adaptive damper/antiroll) .. btw do they have more settings with Adaptive drive?

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by kfiend

There is for sure less roll with the AD comparing to the E60 with M suspension, but less roll does not mean things are more connected. I drove my bro's E60 and my F10 back to back today on the same route, and I feel more connected in the E60. Yes, the F10 is still fast and very controllable in tight corners, just that, it doesn't feel the same. I can feel the more weight and more lose movements in the F10 comparing to the E60. I was hoping that swapping to lower and stiffer spring will help, but I have doubts now. It could all be down to how the AD shocks adjust itself during cornering.

Fact is, I love my F10. I love how BMW manages to bring the best of both worlds together (lux and sports) and all the new tech it has. I am just hoping/wanting a more compose ride during those tight corners.

Yeah, when I corner hard to push/test the car, I am a little concerned, but somehow it always comes out alright, just it feels weird doing it
Too bad we dont know which parts to change to improve it, or maybe its just the way this car is going to behave

[HighlandPete]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, it feels alien to us. If we take a standard M-sport 'passive' suspension, typically we have compromised ride comfort, as the suspension is biased towards handling, or "towards safety" as the guys in the industry often refer. We are not used to having comfort and handling.

Perhaps this helps a bit.

Sensors in your BMW permanently monitor vehicle speed, steering-wheel position and the pitch and yaw forces acting on the chassis. Using this data, the system precisely adjusts the stabilisers and the dampers, changing their settings quickly and accurately.

So quick steering reactions will adjust the roll bars and dampers instantly, whatever the background setting. Confirmed by the following statement.

When you are entering a corner, the dampers are immediately adjusted and become stiffer so that you have perfect handling, no matter which setting you are using.

Note this comment from BMW...

... or if you have to evade some obstacles, the system automatically switches to a stiffer setting and you can corner with the maximum capability of the car. When the situation has calmed down, the previous setting is activated again. The focus is on optimal customer benefit: as stiff as necessary, but as comfortable as possible.

Note the mission, "as stiff as necessary, but as comfortable as possible".

We keep seeing the sport + setting as if that is a sportier handling setting. In fact it could be less safe for many drivers near the limits. Not the one to be using unless we really know what we are doing, and WHY we are using it.

Touch the switch again to enter the SPORT + mode where the Dynamic Stability Control allows increased slip to the rear wheels.

So in sport+ we have the sport background setting, with the addition of DSC modification.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Yeah, when I corner hard to push/test the car, I am a little concerned, but somehow it always comes out alright, just it feels weird doing it
Too bad we dont know which parts to change to improve it, or maybe its just the way this car is going to behave

I think we have much more to learn about this system, 'butt feelings' are bound to be different.

As to knowing which parts to modify, it is why I mentioned in the other thread we could get some conflicts, with just changing springs. Software is the issue from my technical thinking, for whatever we decide to modify. OK we can get a lower and stiffer car, but what will that be doing to the feedback systems? We'll get changes, the car will drive differently, but are the changes all positive?

HighlandPete

[tadtaggert]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I think we have much more to learn about this system, 'butt feelings' are bound to be different.

As to knowing which parts to modify, it is why I mentioned in the other thread we could get some conflicts, with just changing springs. Software is the issue from my technical thinking, for whatever we decide to modify. OK we can get a lower and stiffer car, but what will that be doing to the feedback systems? We'll get changes, the car will drive differently, but are the changes all positive?

You're making the assumption that the 'software' is 'matched' to the hardware, or that the interaction is only valid with the oem hardware. While I can't tell you that isn't the case entirely, BMW has said that in great part the sensors that 'feed' the software are not sensing specific hardware, there are monitoring/measuring driving conditions independent of the hardware.

I'll probably wait for a software suspension mod with matching hw anyway, it appears that most of the springs to date, for DHP or not, are primarily targeted at lowering and keeping suspension performance neutral to a bit stiffer.