[Pierre Louis]

Taking a hit on resale value every three years - effectively what happens with any lease, or resale after 3 years from new for that matter - is my idea of becoming poor.

I am not risk averse. In fact, keeping cars 100k - 200k without extended warranty I am at least $25k ahead of the cost curve, so if I get a $5k or even $10k expense, so what! It will only matter if I want another car instead.

PL

[visualguy]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Taking a hit on resale value every three years - effectively what happens with any lease, or resale after 3 years from new for that matter - is my idea of becoming poor.

I am not risk averse. In fact, keeping cars 100k - 200k without extended warranty I am at least $25k ahead of the cost curve, so if I get a $5k or even $10k expense, so what! It will only matter if I want another car instead.

PL

Leasing gets very expensive over time. However, I don't like buying luxury German cars, only leasing. Too frustrating to own... Finding mechanics who can do a good job maintaining and fixing them is very hard. Once things go bad, hassles and costs pile up. These cars are built for features and performance, not durability and serviceability, which means that you get into trouble pretty quickly.

I see two ways to go with cars. One is to value performance, features and luxury most. In that case, lease a German car and forget about frugality, but you will have a good experience and maximum enjoyment. The other way is to value frugality. In that case, buy a reliable Japanese or Korean car, and keep it for many years. Less enjoyment, but frugal without too many headaches. The option of buying German and keeping for many years isn't really frugal, and it leads to serious hassles trying to keep these complex and hard-to-work-on beasts running.

[Pierre Louis]

I know this is somehow dualistically logical, but that just hasn't been my experience with German cars. It all depends on how well the car is treated/maintained and how much one can tolerate in repair bills. And yes, I have been wildly successful in finding the best German mechanics. I know/knew some very highly regarded mechanics, even one that Ferry Porsche knew personally. No matter what, you will get what you pay for.

Yes, a good Japanese or Korean car can be less trouble. But those cars would bore me so much I would really be getting rid of them early and that, dear reader, is potentially more expensive.

Cheers,

PL

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by visualguy

Leasing gets very expensive over time. However, I don't like buying luxury German cars, only leasing. Too frustrating to own... Finding mechanics who can do a good job maintaining and fixing them is very hard. Once things go bad, hassles and costs pile up. These cars are built for features and performance, not durability and serviceability, which means that you get into trouble pretty quickly.

I see two ways to go with cars. One is to value performance, features and luxury most. In that case, lease a German car and forget about frugality, but you will have a good experience and maximum enjoyment. The other way is to value frugality. In that case, buy a reliable Japanese or Korean car, and keep it for many years. Less enjoyment, but frugal without too many headaches. The option of buying German and keeping for many years isn't really frugal, and it leads to serious hassles trying to keep these complex and hard-to-work-on beasts running.

I keep hearing this (from mostly non-owners) and reading about it here. Were that the case, why would I see so many older (more than 10 years) BMW's on the road here? My neighbor across the street and over 3 has a 90's 3-Series that she drive regularly. Around the corner there is an E60 (I know, the youngest would be 8 years old) that is also daily driven. I know this is just anecdotal.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

I keep hearing this (from mostly non-owners) and reading about it here. Were that the case, why would I see so many older (more than 10 years) BMW's on the road here? My neighbor across the street and over 3 has a 90's 3-Series that she drive regularly. Around the corner there is an E60 (I know, the youngest would be 8 years old) that is also daily driven. I know this is just anecdotal.

My neighbour runs an E39 1998 535i (V8), coming up to 300,000 miles. It took him well past 200,000 miles before he needed to spend on a few basic repairs. (Nothing inside the engine or gearbox). He says "it owes me nothing". It is used most days and the V8 is still one of the sweetest BMW V8 motors I've ever heard, even from a cold start.

Yes the car is now showing its age, but at nearly 20-years and almost 300,000 miles in the harsh environment of the Scottish Highlands, has done well.

[NickG_TechniqueTuning]

Originally Posted by Chili Palmer

On Monday I get a call from my service guy at BMW - to do one head gasket it's $8800, to do both sides it's $10,800. That's more than the car is worth! I asked if BMW would help out, he said they may offer a discount on the parts, but that's it.
.
.
.
.
. If it was only $5000 I'd do it,
.
.
.

I know you've already moved on, but your service guy at BMW was bending you over a barrel. The MSRP of a remanufactured N63 is $3732. That's a completely rebuilt, complete engine (block, heads, etc.). You could have swapped the engine for less than the cost of swapping head gaskets.

[Pierre Louis]

Methinks BMW service is where the profit is, so they jack it up since most of the repairs fall under warranty. That, and selling used cars. They use a "black book" in my experience which can be 20% below what other pricing outfits call "wholesale." Maybe its what the auction places will have as value, dunno.

One way to get a used one is if your "really good" private BMW mechanic can go to an auction (some only for dealers) you can get the best deal.

PL

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Methinks BMW service is where the profit is, so they jack it up since most of the repairs fall under warranty. That, and selling used cars. They use a "black book" in my experience which can be 20% below what other pricing outfits call "wholesale." Maybe its what the auction places will have as value, dunno.

One way to get a used one is if your "really good" private BMW mechanic can go to an auction (some only for dealers) you can get the best deal.

PL

That's a true statement. The reason dealers can offer big discounts on new cars is they make it up in service and sale of used cars; the biggest profit is used cars.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Chili Palmer

In the meantime I go online to see what the value of the car is. Holy crap! F me! A beautiful technological masterpiece like this, 6 years old with 103,000 miles has trade-in value of $10,000! That's it?! A $50,000 hit in 5 years?

With all due respect, and I do honestly mean this.

What did you expect would happen ?
Market for 7 year old luxury, powerful, thirsty and somewhat issue prone BMW is extremely small.

Most cars will lose 1/2 their value within first 3-4 years, and another 15% every year. Besides, most 7 year old vehicles will need repairs, especially high performing V8 known to have issues and very expensive parts and labor.

So, yeah, that's just how things are with cars, very few hold value well.
And those that do, are probably smarter to be purchased brand new anyway.

[Pierre Louis]

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=975183 is an interesting thread on high mileage f10 cars - some post they are surprised by the reliability...

[KillerM5]

The hit is much worse for the M5/6 guys!! Ive had really good experience with all my german performance sedans including my E60 M5. I agree that its more about how you treat and maintain your car than anything else.

With that being said this F10 has had more issues than any other german car that Ive owned so I will not keep it past 60k miles. Just not worth the risk in my book.

[Chili Palmer]

Originally Posted by NickG_TechniqueTuning

I know you've already moved on, but your service guy at BMW was bending you over a barrel. The MSRP of a remanufactured N63 is $3732. That's a completely rebuilt, complete engine (block, heads, etc.). You could have swapped the engine for less than the cost of swapping head gaskets.

Had I known, I would have gone this route.

Originally Posted by Bbb34

With all due respect, and I do honestly mean this.

What did you expect would happen ?
Market for 7 year old luxury, powerful, thirsty and somewhat issue prone BMW is extremely small.

Most cars will lose 1/2 their value within first 3-4 years, and another 15% every year. Besides, most 7 year old vehicles will need repairs, especially high performing V8 known to have issues and very expensive parts and labor.

So, yeah, that's just how things are with cars, very few hold value well.
And those that do, are probably smarter to be purchased brand new anyway.

I really didn't expect the value to fall to $10,000. I really thought it would be somewhere in the $20,000's.

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by Chili Palmer

Had I known, I would have gone this route.



I really didn't expect the value to fall to $10,000. I really thought it would be somewhere in the $20,000's.

Experience with "big engine" S and E class cars - they are the least expensive used compared to the "regular" engines. Diesels can fetch even more, but the market for such cars is not what it could be. Dealer repair and parts costs do their damage. That's why a good indy makes everything better....

PL

[jeveryday]

Wow man thats crazy... 10K? I would definitely jump ship.

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by jeveryday

Wow man thats crazy... 10K? I would definitely jump ship.

Jump ship when? I guess you mean way before it drops that low?

The value is only what someone else is willing to pay for it. If BMW didn't design a good V8, or Mercedes costs big bucks to service a V12, well...

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Chili Palmer

I really didn't expect the value to fall to $10,000. I really thought it would be somewhere in the $20,000's.

From my experience over here in the UK, the more expensive and complex a car is new, the heavier the depreciation. Nothing new in that.

Valid reasons for this, all 'consumable' cars have to drop to virtually nothing over a similar mileage, Plus the market for complex used cars with high running cost (real or just perceived) is limited. Even the thought of taking on unknown costs turns many potential buyers away.

Over here and appears the same in most markets, the lower end 'cheaper' models hold their value better.

[Pierre Louis]

My preference is to buy new or very recently new and keep for a long time. Best high end value/cost formula. Makes me take better care of my engineering marvel. My current 535d came in to my stable as a "leftover" with a large discount (near a slightly used price).

I remember when in the 1990's a lot of high end buyers complained of their rides having problems. These same buyers/leasers I suspect abused their cars. This is why Porsche has the highest reliability - unlike BMW, Mercedes, etc. Porsches are designed to be "abused" i.e. braking, cornering, acceleration, etc. But European Porsches traditionally had less success being reliable and were known to be "abused" more then their NA counterparts.

PL

[Kb_528i]

I have a simple strategy that has served me well for the past 10+ years (3 cars). I buy a used 3 year old 5series with low miles (~20k miles) and a clean car fax. It usually costs me between 25-28K cash. I keep it for 3years and sell it with about 65K miles for 13-15K. Since the car still has 1 year of warranty/service left when I get it, I don’t worry too much. The trick is that you need to search for a couple weeks to find one with low mileage and clean car fax.

[krautmeister]

I think the era of killer CPO deals with cars that handle longevity are over. I still have my 2004 E60 and it runs (oil pump seal is weeping). I got that in 2005 that was a lease turn in.

My F10... I'm seriously looking to unload it and lease a new (insert German car here) for the sake of simplicity as the cost of aftermarket warranty and the depreciation, it's almost the same net financially. The monthly may be higher, but the effective cost I've figured to be a stones throw. So why buy a few years old CPO when you can lease a new one? I can see some folks may be tied to a cash flow limit on monthly payments but for me, the net net at the end, I think will nearly be the same (barring I don't go super deep into M or AMG territory).

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by krautmeister

I think the era of killer CPO deals with cars that handle longevity are over. I still have my 2004 E60 and it runs (oil pump seal is weeping). I got that in 2005 that was a lease turn in.

My F10... I'm seriously looking to unload it and lease a new (insert German car here) for the sake of simplicity as the cost of aftermarket warranty and the depreciation, it's almost the same net financially. The monthly may be higher, but the effective cost I've figured to be a stones throw. So why buy a few years old CPO when you can lease a new one? I can see some folks may be tied to a cash flow limit on monthly payments but for me, the net net at the end, I think will nearly be the same (barring I don't go super deep into M or AMG territory).

This is one of the best arguments so far for leasing. You still get more of a hit the first 3-4 years, but I agree, these cars still keep losing resale value until they hit the $10,000 range at which point they don't lose much afterwards no matter the mileage at that point.

PL