[Stormbitch]

Love this.. love the images - going to read it properly with a coffee shortly... Hope there is no fighting...Those images are hilariously brilliant... wow.

[Stormbitch]

Lets be clear - the design of all the cars interiors certainly LOOKS the best. And we are also noting that 5 6 7 I8 I3 and X3 X5 X6 are all still good. But...

GT £37000 for a large van with seats, plastic blue trim? wide open spaces and gaps, hard seats, the basic rubber I drive Knob, 2.0 with 34mpg, road noise, wind noise, hard seats, narrow seats, massive plastic door buckets for items.

The 1 2 3 4 - a removable cup holder tray... that doubles up as a floor ornament! Really?

The 1 2 4 4 - all sharing stereo and heat controls and stalks?

Yes - lets make money sure bravo. I am a share holder!

But now lets walk across the road with the same cash into Audi

A1 A3 A5 A6 all lower end cars, all with impressive interiors, yes the MMI is useless and you WILL crash trying to change a track and yes there is some ride comfort issue and fwd. BUT average Joe has proved that Audi is the number 1 consumer desired brand in Europe and that is probably why they are overpriced VWs.

Mercedes A Class CLA, and the New C - all have the quality you might expect from an older 3 or maybe even a 5.

Yes the 5 is a delightful, snug, place to be, but this is about the others...

Lets now spend £44,000 or in US money $18,000,000 on a 435D - Yes the best engine in the world. Yes the fastest most desirable deisal and yes I want one. Why won't I buy one? Interior. Plain and simple. If you want to charge double the money then at least fool me that I am getting more than just a 1 series that sits lower. There really isn't that much in it. Add that to our theory of cheap money and that the kids all want one, and BMW looses a point immediately to Mercedes.

Back to my embarrassing to look at Van 3GT base model for £37,000 - Looking at that money and that 0-60 and mpg.. other manufacturers make a better car for the cash.

Yes the 235 makes up for it with JOY and the M models are a bargain, but all the other car makers all also have to make money and make cars for everyone. Yet none really seem as cheap. The Z4 story says it all. This is not a cheap car. And although it drives like a dream... rattles means you ARE better off with a Boxster.

Case in point - I hired a 1.6 tdi SEAT LEON. And the interior and driving dynamics seemed not a million miles away from a 1.6 tdi 1 series but there is an ENORMOUS price difference.

Then there is the JD power survey in the UK. A survey of the Top 100 cars for reliability based on owner surveys. BMW is not in the Top 20 for any of its models! That's just embarrassing. For something that we desire, at a price that is not cheap.

BMW will always be the best in so many areas, certainly their goodwill and looking after customers is up there, its a comforting thought. Mercedes tend to get lost up their own snotty backsides but that's another story.

Then there are the drive train, gearbox failures et all. Not really acceptable.

Years ago I had an E90 - Each time I was lent any of the range. I wanted to own one. Now when my car is in the shop, I really feel the cheapness of the lower models, and did not before.

Maybe its not the design or the materials, maybe its a bit of everything. My friends 318ti from 1999 is more refined than the latest 1 series, its a feeling, an ambiance, a passion.

My mother who is 66 got in my GT and said "cheap crap" and what on earth does she know about cars.

[ezmaass]

Storm - we need to get you on Top Gear as a guest... I think it would be entertaining. Your points are all pretty valid, I think.

For me, when I boil down all of the pros and cons, comparisons of different brands and different vehicles, I still find a BMW in my garage. So, I guess that says it all. I've had my gripes here and there, like we all have... and I've got my opinions on BMW's latest go-to-market and route-to-market plans with the expanded line-up... and I certainly have my opinions on their designs... but I just, for the life of me, couldn't identify another sedan (in any immediate vicinity of price) I'd rather be driving than my 550xi. And I think that says something to me at the end of the day.

There isn't a car manufacturer on the planet that I can say I love their entire line-up. I tend to like a few models here and there from different brands. I love the V8 Vantage, but I think all of the other Astons looks a bit strange. I love the 458 Italia, but I'm not too crazy about the other current Ferraris. The R8 is something special, and I actually have a Q5 in my garage (wife's car), but the other Audis don't do much for me. Etc, etc, etc. With BMW, I suppose, I can find the largest number of vehicles in a given brand I'd probably consider buying/owning - including the 5, 6, 6GC, X5, and even 7. So, I guess it's statistically still ahead of the other brands for me.

[Noggie]

I will agree that there is a huge difference in interior quality feel between the models.
I do feel much more at home in my 5 than in the new 3 or 4.
Almost ordered a new 428i cabrio, but decided against it.
On the 3 and 4 series you cant even have an electrical steering column, and lots of other options.

I have looked at 1 and 2 series ant the interior is even "cheaper", but I would say no worse than the competition. after all the 1 and 2 is a small "cheap" car, and the competition is WV Golf/Polo, Audi A3 and Ford Focus.

The 3 and 4 series is in the same class as Audi A4, Ford Mondeo, MB C-class.

Me coming from an E46 M3 to the F11 feel that these cars a a world apart, and the F11 is just so much better in every way.

One thing I don't like is that BMW take for ever to put the "goddies" from the bigger models into the smaller ones. that the E90 never came with HUD is the single reason I never got one. on the e60 it was launched in 2005, it should have been on the E90 facelift in 2009, not on the new 2013 style.

I still see a lot of options on my 5 that the 3 and for should have had, but you can't have them.

As for prices, your cars are so ridiculously cheap that I really envy you those.
44.000£ will get a new 320 with no options, or a decent kitted 318 in my country.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Stormbitch

...Years ago I had an E90 - Each time I was lent any of the range. I wanted to own one. Now when my car is in the shop, I really feel the cheapness of the lower models, and did not before.

Maybe its not the design or the materials, maybe its a bit of everything...

I'll come back to the point made in my earlier post, many of the cars are very specification sensitive.

I drove quite a few E9* models and must say some wouldn't get a second look (like a base E90 model), whereas well specified models with bigger engines and the correct options were very desirable and good to drive.

I say the same for 5-series cars as well. I remember driving an F11 520d manual on the day of launch. My comments included the following.

So from my perspective, if it was the first 5-series I’d driven, I’d not be too sure this was the car I wanted to drive, or own. But from my experience in better 5’s, it just isn’t a spec’ for me, I’d have to give it a miss and look ‘upwards’ or elsewhere.

I've bought an F11 since that first opinion, chalk an cheese differences, all in the specification... "at a price", of course.

Similar for the F30 I had on hire, I found it difficult to see where it showed the BMW strengths.

.... driving an F30 320d EfficientDynamics auto for a couple of days.

I just can't get my head around whether I like this car, or not. No way am I trying to compare it with my own car, there is just no comparison in any way, so would be totally unfair to even try and do so.

I'm just trying to assess it as a BMW and 3-series at that. I'm just so underwhelmed, although it does drive reasonably well. It just doesn't feel BMW enough to light my fire in any way.

After a couple of days with the 320d, I had a different view than my first impression. Particularly as my son and I compared it to an Audi A3, to see if it really did fall short of its premium image.

320d has gone back today, my impressions of the car have changed a little for the better. We compared it to the Audi A3 for finish and perceived quality and it does stand its ground. Clearly specification and trim "makes" the 3-series, like it does in any other BMW model range.

So different from a well optioned F30 328i I tried at launch time, when I came away with a very positive first impression, enough to be prepared to buy an F31 328i wagon, to replace my E91 330d wagon.

For me, base models are not in the same league as well specified models, wherever you look in the range. Not a new issue with BMW, as I've said before. But that observation is not unique to BMW, is it?

HighlandPete

[613Bimmer]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I'll come back to the point made in my earlier post, many of the cars are very specification sensitive.

I drove quite a few E9* models and must say some wouldn't get a second look (like a base E90 model), whereas well specified models with bigger engines and the correct options were very desirable and good to drive.

I say the same for 5-series cars as well. I remember driving an F11 520d manual on the day of launch. My comments included the following.



I've bought an F11 since that first opinion, chalk an cheese differences, all in the specification... "at a price", of course.

Similar for the F30 I had on hire, I found it difficult to see where it showed the BMW strengths.



After a couple of days with the 320d, I had a different view than my first impression. Particularly as my son and I compared it to an Audi A3, to see if it really did fall short of its premium image.



So different from a well optioned F30 328i I tried at launch time, when I came away with a very positive first impression, enough to be prepared to buy an F31 328i wagon, to replace my E91 330d wagon.

For me, base models are not in the same league as well specified models, wherever you look in the range. Not a new issue with BMW, as I've said before. But that observation is not unique to BMW, is it?

HighlandPete

I agree 100% with you Pete, this is even the case within the F10 line-up. My first F10 was a base model 528i XDrive (the lowest f10 in my region) and I was dissapointed with the quality of certain things like the nav system, having a 4 Pot in a 5 series and that it had the basic steering wheel that was made out of some synthetic material and felt like it should have been on an Accord. After having some mechanical issues with the car, I traded it in for a fully loaded 535i Xdrive Msport. The difference in the quality, from my point of view, was astronomical. It felt like I was driving a 5 Series again.

It all goes to show that BMWs really can differ based on their trim levels and options.

[Fox530]

I like my F10. The interior is wonderful aesthetically. The electronics are fantastic. It's great to drive. But it isn't the quality product my E39 is and this does irriate me. When I pull the door closed in my E39, it feels like closing a bank vault. When I do the same in my F10, you can feel the doorcard flex as you pull on it.

The plastics in areas you rarely touch on the E39 are top notch but quite poor in the F10. Seat panel controls are a key one - solid on the E39. So poor on the F10 that I have a constant rattle every time the seat bolster pushes against the cheap plastic on the seat frame.

But I tested various cars before I bought the F10. The Audi A6 was terrible. The Jaguar XF is old and dated. Nobody else is really any better.

These days most people care about monthly lease costs and how much bling they get for the money. 15 years ago people wanted a quality product. It's a different demographic buying these cars now - and it works for BMW, as they are more profitable than ever.

It also means I will never, ever part with my E39.

[Boulder Bill]

Originally Posted by Fox530

I like my F10. The interior is wonderful aesthetically. The electronics are fantastic. It's great to drive. But it isn't the quality product my E39 is and this does irriate me. When I pull the door closed in my E39, it feels like closing a bank vault. When I do the same in my F10, you can feel the doorcard flex as you pull on it.

The plastics in areas you rarely touch on the E39 are top notch but quite poor in the F10. Seat panel controls are a key one - solid on the E39. So poor on the F10 that I have a constant rattle every time the seat bolster pushes against the cheap plastic on the seat frame.

But I tested various cars before I bought the F10. The Audi A6 was terrible. The Jaguar XF is old and dated. Nobody else is really any better.

These days most people care about monthly lease costs and how much bling they get for the money. 15 years ago people wanted a quality product. It's a different demographic buying these cars now - and it works for BMW, as they are more profitable than ever.

It also means I will never, ever part with my E39.

So true in so many regards. I'm very content with my F10. But as a complete package, it is inferior in many ways to my E39. I hung on to that car for a long time. If for no other reason than I did not care for the E60. But as much as I enjoyed that car, I did not enjoy the maintenance costs as it clicked up to 150,000 miles. So now, I have the tech, but not quite the same driving experience.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Fox530

...These days most people care about monthly lease costs and how much bling they get for the money. 15 years ago people wanted a quality product. It's a different demographic buying these cars now - and it works for BMW, as they are more profitable than ever.

It also means I will never, ever part with my E39.

As I parted with my E39 over 6-years before getting the F11, I can only go on my memory and perception of the similarities. So not a direct comparison as some of you guys have. I know there are differences, and recognise we are up against the best of BMW in the E39. But are these differences clearly a drop in quality, or a feeling of solidity.

A slightly different thought, is car cost and value. My 1998 E39 was listed at £50,000 when new, my 2011 F11, £60,000. The F11 model is as much a car as my E39 was, has similar performance, more tech and options. Allowing for inflation (UK) we'd be paying over £76,000 today, for a similar car, based on the 1998 price. More car for our money? Depends how we see it.

Plus I'm sure BMW have had to work at cutting weight, (we still are over weight) and at costs to keep competitive.

HighlandPete

[Stormbitch]

ooooo... adding computers and tech could be a reason to spend less on other things... more to think about and all that...

good call....

That said.. they still charge loads for the 4 series with nothing on it.

[Noggie]

Originally Posted by Stormbitch

ooooo... adding computers and tech could be a reason to spend less on other things... more to think about and all that...

good call....

That said.. they still charge loads for the 4 series with nothing on it.

That is true, the 428i Cabrio I was thinking of ended up at £90.000 when I was done with the options, £25.000 in options added.
The 435i Cabrio came out at £115.000.

In the end I paid £100.000 for my -12 M550xd Touring, wanted an M5, but was not willing to put down £130.000 on a 2012. Ordering a new M5 for £210.000 was completely out of the question.

Really, really envy you guys your car prices........

[Fox530]

Today all the letters fell off my door sill entry strip.

Not bad for 30k miles. All letters present and correct on 13 year old 207k mile E39.

[OnlyTruth]

Forget about the noise. My F10 was lemoned because of notorious pull to the right - a $60K sedan cannot go straight))) And they could not fix it in 6 attempts. I tracked it down by VIN - it was sold with a branded title for $30K.

[BigK]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I'll come back to the point made in my earlier post, many of the cars are very specification sensitive.

I drove quite a few E9* models and must say some wouldn't get a second look (like a base E90 model), whereas well specified models with bigger engines and the correct options were very desirable and good to drive.

I say the same for 5-series cars as well. I remember driving an F11 520d manual on the day of launch. My comments included the following.



I've bought an F11 since that first opinion, chalk an cheese differences, all in the specification... "at a price", of course.

Similar for the F30 I had on hire, I found it difficult to see where it showed the BMW strengths.



After a couple of days with the 320d, I had a different view than my first impression. Particularly as my son and I compared it to an Audi A3, to see if it really did fall short of its premium image.



So different from a well optioned F30 328i I tried at launch time, when I came away with a very positive first impression, enough to be prepared to buy an F31 328i wagon, to replace my E91 330d wagon.

For me, base models are not in the same league as well specified models, wherever you look in the range. Not a new issue with BMW, as I've said before. But that observation is not unique to BMW, is it?

HighlandPete

Originally Posted by F10Enthusiast

I agree 100% with you Pete, this is even the case within the F10 line-up. My first F10 was a base model 528i XDrive (the lowest f10 in my region) and I was dissapointed with the quality of certain things like the nav system, having a 4 Pot in a 5 series and that it had the basic steering wheel that was made out of some synthetic material and felt like it should have been on an Accord. After having some mechanical issues with the car, I traded it in for a fully loaded 535i Xdrive Msport. The difference in the quality, from my point of view, was astronomical. It felt like I was driving a 5 Series again.

It all goes to show that BMWs really can differ based on their trim levels and options.

No offense but I call this BS. Options and specs only affect how the car is equipped and should not make up for the build quality as well as fit & finish. Within the same lineup, a base 528i will share over 90% of the interior components as the fully optioned 550i. BMW will lose a lot of money if it sources different components for different spec'd cars that look the same. So to say that a highly optioned model has higher quality over the base model is delusional IMHO.

Although you can get more adjustable seats and fatter steering wheel. But those are better functionally and aesthetically, not in terms of quality. So if a spot on the dash creaks on most 528i, you can bet your money it will creak on the 550i.

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by OnlyTruth

Forget about the noise. My F10 was lemoned because of notorious pull to the right - a $60K sedan cannot go straight))) And they could not fix it in 6 attempts. I tracked it down by VIN - it was sold with a branded title for $30K.

This kind of thing is going to happen here and there with any brand - sorry it happened to you. I don't think F10s in general have suffered from any significant recurring quality issues, at least not since 2012. The 2011s might have been a little rough.

[the_e90]

Interesting read, thanks for sharing your point of view.

I just recently upgraded my garage with an F10 528Xi and a 2011 335 convertible.

To me, both cars present upgrades over Mercedes. I test drove the E class and the C class, I couldnt feel anything special in either of them. The plastic quality (buttons, vents, nav screen etc) was inferior to the BMW design.

Again, thats a view point.

Audi on the other hand has a marvelous interior. But i am not sure if i can take an Audi and drive it till it reaches close to 200K like I did with my other BMWs. Reliablity matters.

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by the_e90

Audi on the other hand has a marvelous interior. But i am not sure if i can take an Audi and drive it till it reaches close to 200K like I did with my other BMWs. Reliablity matters.

Audi is building some awesome cars right now, no doubt. My personal sample size is two Audis and three BMWs.

My newest Audi was a 2004, and I give them some credit for advancing reliability since then - but both of my Audis totally imploded after about 75,000 miles. Both mechanically and in appearance - especially interior. I found myself spending $3000 every 2 or 3 months on this or that. One of them was then totaled in a hailstorm, which ended up being fortunate. The other one, the 2004 - my mechanic told me to dump it and that he never wanted to see it again.

My BMWs, despite all the folklore around here, have all been much better. I drove an E53 to 90,000 miles and traded it only because I wanted something faster. That was an E60, which I drove to 85,000 miles and traded last year, way too early; it was in very good health, paid for, and I should have kept it at least two more years. Neither of them had any degree of unacceptable maintenance expense down the stretch, and I didn't get rid of either because I felt it was coming.

My current F10 is still in the honeymoon period at about 8,000 miles. Flawless so far.

I would lease an Audi (if they would develop a better leasing program), but I doubt I would buy one for my normal ~90K ownership stretch. Maybe with an extended warranty.

[noixd]

Originally Posted by the_e90

Interesting read, thanks for sharing your point of view.

I just recently upgraded my garage with an F10 528Xi and a 2011 335 convertible.

To me, both cars present upgrades over Mercedes. I test drove the E class and the C class, I couldnt feel anything special in either of them. The plastic quality (buttons, vents, nav screen etc) was inferior to the BMW design.

Again, thats a view point.

Audi on the other hand has a marvelous interior. But i am not sure if i can take an Audi and drive it till it reaches close to 200K like I did with my other BMWs. Reliablity matters.

Audi's interior are donkey shiet!!! I test drove a A6 and A7 and it def didn't feel like a +60K car. The placement of buttons is overwhelming and the graphics on the Nav looked like it was from Nintendo 16 bit! In my books it's just a glorified VW!

[Kre62]

Originally Posted by noixd

Audi's interior are donkey shiet!!! I test drove a A6 and A7 and it def didn't feel like a +60K car. The placement of buttons is overwhelming and the graphics on the Nav looked like it was from Nintendo 16 bit! In my books it's just a glorified VW!

I agree, test drove a 2014 A6 and thought I was in a kia or something like that. Worst interior ive seen.

[OnlyTruth]

Originally Posted by WJGreer

This kind of thing is going to happen here and there with any brand - sorry it happened to you. I don't think F10s in general have suffered from any significant recurring quality issues, at least not since 2012. The 2011s might have been a little rough.

NO the problem extends to 2013's as well, there is a post here confirming that. I drove 2013 loaners - same problem. 2011 problem was not only in US but all over the world. There is a huge discussion on that too. Most of the drivers do not know that they have it though. Check yours, let your steering wheel go and you may notice that the car drifts to the right faster than the road camber from any lane left, middle or right.

[Stormbitch]

Originally Posted by Fox530

Today all the letters fell off my door sill entry strip.

Not bad for 30k miles. All letters present and correct on 13 year old 207k mile E39.

AHhahahhdahsdlkjhasdlkajshdalksdhahashsdhashdashda hsdhasdhasdhahsdhasdad

[Stormbitch]

Well, would you believe it.. New Seat ordered today, and new trim passengers side.

Brilliant 50k car, seat back springs fail at 50k miles. Such quality.