[Bronson]

Currently have 1350 miles. Good time to do first oil change or wait? Only reason I ask is many veterans on here have recommended mean while my service advisor says different. Opinions are appreciated please

[Alan l.]

I've seen enough evidence throughout the years that it is ALWAYS a good idea to change out the oil after 1200-1500 miles. Another member here posted his oil analysis after break in and found higher concentration of metals in his oil which proves this point even further. His second oil change has significantly less metal content which means the motor was now fully broken in.

If you don't plan to keep the car for long it might not matter but if you are, its a no brainer.

Alan

[Bronson]

Originally Posted by Alan l.

I've seen enough evidence throughout the years that it is ALWAYS a good idea to change out the oil after 1200-1500 miles. Another member here posted his oil analysis after break in and found higher concentration of metals in his oil which proves this point even further. His second oil change has significantly less metal content which means the motor was now fully broken in.

If you don't plan to keep the car for long it might not matter but if you are, its a no brainer.

Alan

Thank you. I will change oil myself. Plan on keeping car

[nicksbmw2]

I am considering changing the oil also. My car has about 1600 miles. Would you change the oil without changing the filter?

[pMart36]

I am also at that point and will be keeping the car. Since I live in SF I do not have everything I need to change the oil myself. What is an approximate cost to have the oil changed at the bmw dealer?

[m6pwr]

You DO NOT have to change the oil at 1200 miles. Provided you do a sane break in of the engine, the wear metals should be far below any cause of concern. Yes, it is true that the wear metals (principally iron and copper) will be elevated above what you may see much later on in the life of the engine, but they will still be miniscule. This is completely normal and to be expected as the engine breaks in. If the wear metals were so high and concentrated as to pose a risk of abrasive wear at 1200 mi, don't you think BMW would require an oil change at 1200 mi? Or do you think that BMW engineers are craven idiots? If so, why did you buy a BMW in the first place?

Fellow bimwads will now chime in that changing the oil at 1200 mi "can't hurt" and will give you "peace of mind". Check out this SAE paper reporting on a study done by Ford and Conoco that shows that fresh oil does not do as good a job of lubricating (particularly preventing wear) in the first 3000 mi of use as "aged oil": http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/. Then there is this bit of wisdom from Mr. Doug Hillary (a euro-based lubricants engineer with decades of experience with Castrol and Mobil). He says that he has seen data that indicates frequent oil changes in forced induction direct injection engines (eg. N54/N55) results in increased intake deposits. Here's the thread - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...72#Post2082572.

Bottom line: the more often you change your oil, the more often you are putting your engine thru this initial 3000 mi cycle of sub-optimal lubrication.

Leave the factory fill in and do not change the oil. You will gain nothing by changing it early.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

You DO NOT have to change the oil at 1200 miles. Provided you do a sane break in of the engine, the wear metals should be far below any cause of concern. Yes, it is true that the wear metals (principally iron and copper) will be elevated above what you may see much later on in the life of the engine, but they will still be miniscule. This is completely normal and to be expected as the engine breaks in. If the wear metals were so high and concentrated as to pose a risk of abrasive wear at 1200 mi, don't you think BMW would require an oil change at 1200 mi? Or do you think that BMW engineers are craven idiots? If so, why did you buy a BMW in the first place?

Fellow bimwads will now chime in that changing the oil at 1200 mi "can't hurt" and will give you "peace of mind". Check out this SAE paper reporting on a study done by Ford and Conoco that shows that fresh oil does not do as good a job of lubricating (particularly preventing wear) in the first 3000 mi of use as "aged oil": http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/. Then there is this bit of wisdom from Mr. Doug Hillary (a euro-based lubricants engineer with decades of experience with Castrol and Mobil). He says that he has seen data that indicates frequent oil changes in forced induction direct injection engines (eg. N54/N55) results in increased intake deposits. Here's the thread - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...72#Post2082572.

Bottom line: the more often you change your oil, the more often you are putting your engine thru this initial 3000 mi cycle of sub-optimal lubrication.

Leave the factory fill in and do not change the oil. You will gain nothing by changing it early.

+100

I am already at 9000 miles with no oil change and I plan to follow BMWs recommended intervals. Not sure why they would ask you to save $100 when you buy a $50k+ car. I did the same on my e46 and kept the car for 10 years without any issues. i changed the oil annually or 15k miles.

[gatoman39]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

Bottom line: the more often you change your oil, the more often you are putting your engine thru this initial 3000 mi cycle of sub-optimal lubrication.

Leave the factory fill in and do not change the oil. You will gain nothing by changing it early.

Why do you feel the need to post the same crap over and over again? This isn't BITOG. Who is talking about compulsive oil changes? The OP just wants to dump his factory fill, not get lecture from the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers.

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by gatoman39

Why do you feel the need to post the same crap over and over again? This isn't BITOG. Who is talking about compulsive oil changes? The OP just wants to dump his factory fill, not get lecture from the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers.

The OP asked for opinions on whether he should change his oil at 1200 mi. I gave him my opinion and referenced some information that I think is on point.

In any event, the OP is free to disregard my opinion. What's the purpose of the forums anyway? Isn't it the exchange of ideas and opinions - - even those that may deviate from the accepted wisdom?

The OP asked. I answered. You don't agree with my answer. Fine. Reasonable people can disagree - - without being disagreeable.

[gatoman39]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

The OP asked for opinions on whether he should change his oil at 1200 mi. I gave him my opinion and referenced some information that I think is on point.

In any event, the OP is free to disregard my opinion. What's the purpose of the forums anyway? Isn't it the exchange of ideas and opinions - - even those that may deviate from the accepted wisdom?

The OP asked. I answered. You don't agree with my answer. Fine. Reasonable people can disagree - - without being disagreeable.

You repeatedly regurgitate the same posts and links here and on Bimmerfest and I'm calling you out on it. You are free to bore people with this on BITOG, people on here don't know or care who Doug Hillary is. I get it, you really like engine oil and crapping in people's ear about it. Yes, this forum is all about the exchange of ideas and opinions not about copying and pasting your same posts.

[raleedy]

Best case: an utter waste of time, money and resources.

[Gilgorm]

I've owned a lot of brand new cars and have always followed the manufacturers recommendations. Over the years oils and engines have changed and improved. Bottom line: I've never had a problem. BUT I think you should always be gentle during the break-in period.
Besides, what's the filter for?

[Alan l.]

Bmw is concerned with the motor lasting 50K miles. After that.....Cha ching $$$

15K oil changes?? lol right..... just because Bmw recommends it doesn't mean its the best thing for your car. I've seen countless of oil analysis from the N54 forums where the oil was basically crap by 10K miles.

1200 maybe alittle extreme but i'm certainly not waiting 12-15K to do my first oil change.

OP do whatever helps you sleep better at night. I know i will.

Alan

[Bronson]

Originally Posted by Alan l.

Bmw is concerned with the motor lasting 50K miles. After that.....Cha ching $$$

15K oil changes?? lol right..... just because Bmw recommends it doesn't mean its the best thing for your car. I've seen countless of oil analysis from the N54 forums where the oil was basically crap by 10K miles.

1200 maybe alittle extreme but i'm certainly not waiting 12-15K to do my first oil change.

OP do whatever helps you sleep better at night. I know i will.

Alan

Thanks Alan

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by gatoman39

Why do you feel the need to post the same crap over and over again? This isn't BITOG. Who is talking about compulsive oil changes? The OP just wants to dump his factory fill, not get lecture from the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers.

Originally Posted by gatoman39

You repeatedly regurgitate the same posts and links here and on Bimmerfest and I'm calling you out on it. You are free to bore people with this on BITOG, people on here don't know or care who Doug Hillary is. I get it, you really like engine oil and crapping in people's ear about it. Yes, this forum is all about the exchange of ideas and opinions not about copying and pasting your same posts.

I have to say that I consider this response somewhat aggressive, especially coming from someone who has previously appeared to have a more moderated approach.
As 'm6pwr' correctly states, this is a discussion forum; in other words, a means for the exchange of viewpoints, some of which will often differ from yours. This does not necessarily mean that they are wrong.
The very fact that you so vehemently castigate him, puts you in exactly the same category that you accuse him of.

[gatoman39]

Originally Posted by Jon D

The very fact that you so vehemently castigate him, puts you in exactly the same category that you accuse him of.

I accuse him of someone who posts the same content over and over again. All you have to do is click on "find all posts" from this guy and you will see what I'm talking about. It's well within my right to call someone out on this, cause he does it on Bimmerfest too. It's tantamount to SPAM.

[m6pwr]

I used to religiously change the factory fill on all my new cars, BMW's and others, at 1500 mi. And I used to do short or frequent oil changes, as frequently as every 3000 mi. These practices were after all part of the conventional wisdom among gearheads. But I like to think I keep an open mind, and over the years as I've read or tried to learn more about engine oil and automotive lubrication, I've come to the conclusion that these practices are at best totally unnecessary. The Ford study I mentioned, and the advice of a very experienced lubricants engineer, has convinced me of that.

One of the more frequently asked questions by newcomers to the forums is "how often should I change the oil if I want my car to last" or "do I need to change the factory fill at 1200 mi", or "can you trust the factory oil change interval" etc. I throw in my 2 cents worth and reference (regurgitate) a credible industry study and the advice of a lubricants engineer who has actually worked on the formulation and field testing of oils used in BMWs. Bad move. Spam. Why this should generate such heat is frankly baffling to me.

Moving on to a more constructive discussion: Maybe those of us who do used oil analyses (UOA) should post the reports on this forum - - maybe ask the moderator to make a sticky of the topic. Then we could argue 'til the cows come home about empirical specifics. The lowly VW TDI diesel forum has such a sticky of over 170 pages of UOAs that show some surprising results: the engine oil can be run to the factory specified change interval (10k mi in the US) with no negative results; in fact, the reports posted by Euro owners show the same oil in the same type of car can be run to nearly twice the US interval with no negative results whatsoever (leads me to believe we're in the last century when it comes to oil change intervals).

For those that are interested, there are two labs that I'm familiar with: Blackstone (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/) and Polaris (http://www.polarislabs.com/). Polaris is the better of the two - - they do a better job of measuring fuel dilution, which is something you want to keep an eye on in gasoline direct injection engines. Doing UOA's is relatively cheap, it's fun, and we may learn a thing or two.

[gatoman39]

So this is what happens with old age and a lack of social interaction. It's sad really.

[rhinosaur]

Originally Posted by gatoman39

I accuse him of someone who posts the same content over and over again. All you have to do is click on "find all posts" from this guy and you will see what I'm talking about. It's well within my right to call someone out on this, cause he does it on Bimmerfest too. It's tantamount to SPAM.

I don't know about previous instances but his post is completely informative and on-topic so what's the problem with that?

[rhinosaur]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

I used to religiously change the factory fill on all my new cars, BMW's and others, at 1500 mi. And I used to do short or frequent oil changes, as frequently as every 3000 mi. These practices were after all part of the conventional wisdom among gearheads. But I like to think I keep an open mind, and over the years as I've read or tried to learn more about engine oil and automotive lubrication, I've come to the conclusion that these practices are at best totally unnecessary. The Ford study I mentioned, and the advice of a very experienced lubricants engineer, has convinced me of that.

One of the more frequently asked questions by newcomers to the forums is "how often should I change the oil if I want my car to last" or "do I need to change the factory fill at 1200 mi", or "can you trust the factory oil change interval" etc. I throw in my 2 cents worth and reference (regurgitate) a credible industry study and the advice of a lubricants engineer who has actually worked on the formulation and field testing of oils used in BMWs. Bad move. Spam. Why this should generate such heat is frankly baffling to me.

Moving on to a more constructive discussion: Maybe those of us who do used oil analyses (UOA) should post the reports on this forum - - maybe ask the moderator to make a sticky of the topic. Then we could argue 'til the cows come home about empirical specifics. The lowly VW TDI diesel forum has such a sticky of over 170 pages of UOAs that show some surprising results: the engine oil can be run to the factory specified change interval (10k mi in the US) with no negative results; in fact, the reports posted by Euro owners show the same oil in the same type of car can be run to nearly twice the US interval with no negative results whatsoever (leads me to believe we're in the last century when it comes to oil change intervals).

For those that are interested, there are two labs that I'm familiar with: Blackstone (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/) and Polaris (http://www.polarislabs.com/). Polaris is the better of the two - - they do a better job of measuring fuel dilution, which is something you want to keep an eye on in gasoline direct injection engines. Doing UOA's is relatively cheap, it's fun, and we may learn a thing or two.

Thanks for raising the bar in this thread, m6pwr. As a chem eng with a special interest in this field, I find your arguments to be accurate and in line with the current state of the oil/engine industry. In Europe the standard change interval is now 30,000 km (18,750 mi) for last generation diesel engines provided that the recommended oil is used, and some carmakers such as Opel are even upping the bar to 50,000 km (31,250 mi). But what do they know…

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by rhinosaur

Thanks for raising the bar in this thread, m6pwr. As a chem eng with a special interest in this field, I find your arguments to be accurate and in line with the current state of the oil/engine industry. In Europe the standard change interval is now 30,000 km (18,750 mi) for last generation diesel engines provided that the recommended oil is used, and some carmakers such as Opel are even upping the bar to 50,000 km (31,250 mi). But what do they know…

And the fact that companies like VW use 'break-in' oil that they want left in the engine for 10k miles, to assist proper bedding in of parts, to prevent oil burning. I had one VW diesel where I wanted to change the oil early and was advised no to do so, as removing the break-in oil could invalidate the warranty.

For those who do choose to make premature oil changes, I hope the oil filter is changed as well. There is strong opinion (those tribologists again) that the filter is more important than the oil change itself.

BTW, I run BMW's CBS in my 'dirty' diesel which extends to over 18k miles between oil services, BMW will warranty the engine for 100k miles, no problem, as long as we keep to BMW's schedule.

HighlandPete

[The X Men]

As CNC manufacturering technology get better and better, the tolarance of automotive parts get tighter and tighter. The metal shavings from break in is reduced and the shavings itself is smaller. There is really no need to flush out the metal shavings anymore in today's engines after the 1st 1000 miles.