[luvthestck]

With more and more car companies shedding weight on their newer models it looks like all BMW models remain the heaviest in their categories.
We saw that Porsche led the way with its extensive use of aluminum and Audi followed [duh].

I recently read that The redesigned 2013 Range Rover bound for the U.S. has lost 700 pounds, thanks to an all-aluminum unibody structure.

Its undeniable that BMW wants to catch up by deciding to use Carbon fiber extensively in the next gen 7 series.

A quick look at the kerb weights of these vehicles is mind numbing

BMW 535: Unladen weight – Automatic transmission 4090 lbs
BMW 535xi:Unladen weight – Automatic transmission 4233lbs
Audi A6: curb weight- Automatic Transmission 4045 lbs.
BMW 550Xi:Unladen weight – Automatic transmission 4519 lbs
Audi S6 :curb weight - Curb weight 4398 lbs
BMW M5: curb weight 4288 lbs!!!
BMW 135i:Unladen weight 3373 (3439) lbs

Boxter S:Curb weight 2910 lbs
Carrera 991 S Curb weight 3120[lighter than 135i!!!]

Did BMW intentionally stick to heavier bodies to make them stronger.. in other words do heavier bodies mean stronger built cars?

If the answer is no .. how could have BMW overlooked this fact. Didn't it hit them when they were signing off on the production plans of M5 or did they just think ..hey lets build our fastest sporty luxury saloon with the greatest tech we have and let it weigh appr 4300lbs.

I hope the upcoming X series don't follow this questionable path.

[bimmerjph]

We can speculate all we want as to why BMW did what they did, but the truth is no-one knows. The good news is BMW recognizes that there is a problem, and is addressing it.

[Estimated Prophet]

They are on pace to sell around 60,000 5 series in the USA this year if sales hold steady. YTD sales are up 13% over last year. From what I can gather worldwide sales are also strong. So, even though some enthusiasts may see the 5 series as a failure I doubt BMW corporate sees it that way with the strong sales numbers being posted.

Still, with tightening fuel economy and emissions regulations I would expect BMW to address the weight issue in upcoming generations of the 5 series as well as the other models. But safety standards are also continually being strengthened along with the consumers ever higher expectations on equipment levels means means use of more exotic materials which inevitably lead to higher prices.

[gatoman39]

Originally Posted by luvthestck

If the answer is no .. how could have BMW overlooked this fact. Didn't it hit them when they were signing off on the production plans of M5 or did they just think ..hey lets build our fastest sporty luxury saloon with the greatest tech we have and let it weigh appr 4300lbs.
.

The Porsche Panamera Turbo weighs 4343, and the M5 doesn't look like a misshaped potato, so lets compare apples to apples here.

[luvthestck]

Originally Posted by gatoman39

The Porsche Panamera Turbo weighs 4343, and the M5 doesn't look like a misshaped potato, so lets compare apples to apples here.

Panamera turbo was released 3 years before the M5.That's something to consider too.Technology and necessities are changing at a faster rate these days.

BMW is a more generic car maker[lower price bracket viz more fuel economy] compared to porsche and I guess it has to consider weight saving measures more [than porsche]IMO. I could be wrong as some could argue that Porsche being a sport car maker has more to work on weight saving measures.

If BMW was ready to draw criticism by dropping their famous Hydraulic steering to the EPAS stating tightening fuel economy and emissions regulations...I find it hard that the R&D let the more obvious reasons slip by.

But I am also curious whether the new gen [Lighter vehicles ]are any less safer than BMW's.I wonder if BMW doesn't have the technology to make safer and lighter cars. I am pretty sure audi could manage that feat by borrowed technology from its exotic brothers.I ask this as the 6 series was a much newer model than the F10 and yet sails in the same boat.

[gatoman39]

Originally Posted by luvthestck

Panamera turbo was released 3 years before the M5.That's something to consider too.Technology and necessities are changing at a faster rate these days.

Then why are you comparing a 6 year old 135i to a 2012 991S? You can't cherry pick which cars to compare that are convenient for you.

[luvthestck]

Lol I am not here to argue ,but you certainly have a point(the 997 /997s ?was still almost equal or lighter than the 135).I can imagine weight not being a big issue back then some 5 years ago......The point I am trying to make is What was BMW thinking when they were introducing these heavy car models in 2012.I was just curious if there was a valid reason behind it or if the engineers just missed the boat.

[Boss330]

Weight has been an issue for many years and is not a recent problem. If you look at the different models over time you will see that there has been a long standing evolution towards larger and heavier cars.

For instance the new 3-series now has the same external measurements as the first gen 5-series. Stronger bodyshells for better crash structure, handling and NVH control also adds weight.

My first car was a (euro) mid size Ford that weighed around 1100kg. The comparable model from Ford today weighs around 1600kg. The difference is quite big, but so is the difference between the two cars as well (interior, equipment, refinement etc. etc.).

The difference between a E60 and F10 5-series is also very noticeable and BMW does use quite a bit of aluminium in the 5-series (the front structure from the bulkhead and forward). And going all aluminium is probably still a bit too expensive to justify on a car that also has to sell at a competitive price as a 520d (and not just as a 550i/M5 etc).

The Mercedes E-class is heavier than the 5-series btw. (at least some models - haven't checked all).

[ppatel223]

If A fit driver was driving the car, it helps car's driving dynamics & MPG, vs fat one. just saying.

[gatoman39]

Originally Posted by luvthestck

Lol I am not here to argue ,but you certainly have a point(the 997 /997s ?was still almost equal or lighter than the 135).I can imagine weight not being a big issue back then some 5 years ago......The point I am trying to make is What was BMW thinking when they were introducing these heavy car models in 2012.I was just curious if there was a valid reason behind it or if the engineers just missed the boat.

While I agree the F10 is too heavy, it was a business decision to direct the car as more of a luxury vehicle than a sport one, so it was intentional. You can't have auto close doors, dynamic damper control, heated ventilated massaging seats, active roll stabilization, and power tailgate without having to sacrifice something. Keep in mind this is the only car in it's class that you can still get a manual transmission (in N. America, not sure about Europe).

[The X Men]

Having owned both the 2012 A6 and a F10, I can tell you that the BMW is heavier because of the added sound insulation and its solid feel. For those who rather have a soild and quiet car over a lighter one, the F10 is the clear choice between the two.

[gatoman39]

Originally Posted by The X Men

Having owned both the 2012 A6 and a F10, I can tell you that the BMW is heavier because of the added sound insulation and its solid feel. For those who rather have a soild and quiet car over a lighter one, the F10 is the clear choice between the two.

I know what you mean about the sound insulation. However, I think it was due mostly to the tires. I felt a lot of the noise on the highway was due to the the 19inch pirelli's on Sport Package which are summer tires and made a lot of noise and could get very harsh on poor road conditions. The standard 18's with Conti all season were much more quiet. However, they didn't look as good.
Personally, and it's not talked about in the press, but the seats in the two cars are the biggest difference. The BMW has:
18-way Multi-contour front seats; includes articulated upper backrest, and adjustable thigh support, additionally you can order Nappa leather, heated cooled and massage.
The Audi seat is only 8 way adjustable, they are also heated and cooled, but the seat bottoms are too flat and portions of the seat are vinyl.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by gatoman39

I know what you mean about the sound insulation. However, I think it was due mostly to the tires. I felt a lot of the noise on the highway was due to the the 19inch pirelli's on Sport Package which are summer tires and made a lot of noise and could get very harsh on poor road conditions. The standard 18's with Conti all season were much more quiet. However, they didn't look as good.
Personally, and it's not talked about in the press, but the seats in the two cars are the biggest difference. The BMW has:
18-way Multi-contour front seats; includes articulated upper backrest, and adjustable thigh support, additionally you can order Nappa leather, heated cooled and massage.
The Audi seat is only 8 way adjustable, they are also heated and cooled, but the seat bottoms are too flat and portions of the seat are vinyl.

I had the 18" conti tires on my A6 as well, the F10 is a bit more quiet and stable at highway speed than the A6. The multi contour seat were a must for me when I bought my F10, I got it as a stand alone option. The Vinyl on the Audi seats didnt bother me as much as the comfort aspect of it. I sometimes have slight back pain after taking the A6 on long trips. As far as the F10 being a failure according to the OP, I totally disagree. The heavier construction and the luxury aspect of the F10 are two of the main reason I bought the F10.

[Steve360]

I drove the F10 M5 on a track in the M experience event, and frankly, it is way too heavy, feels like truck racing. So as a cruiser, the F10 might be ok, but the weight is just too prominent. Now driving Ferrari, Lamborghini and FORD GT with ridiculous power (over 900bhp) doesn't make me the average expected driver, but I definitely have mixed feelings about my car arriving.. Due to company policy I opted for a loaded 528i xdrive over a more sound power equipment, maybe with a Burger Tune and the lighter engine weight it could make some sense, but ... We will see...

BMW definitely needs some classes from Lotus's Chapman... Weight is a chore...

[luvthestck]

Originally Posted by The X Men

I had the 18" conti tires on my A6 as well, the F10 is a bit more quiet and stable at highway speed than the A6. The multi contour seat were a must for me when I bought my F10, I got it as a stand alone option. The Vinyl on the Audi seats didnt bother me as much as the comfort aspect of it. I sometimes have slight back pain after taking the A6 on long trips. As far as the F10 being a failure according to the OP, I totally disagree. The heavier construction and the luxury aspect of the F10 are two of the main reason I bought the F10.

I was mentioning BMW cars in general..I had no intention to single out F10.There is no contest between A6 and the F10 when it comes to comfort.The seats in a6 for its price range are a disgrace.I am looking to replace my family vehicle and am interested in the F10/07.I wanted to make sure if the weight would be a permissible advantage viz. more stability at highway speeds as u have mentioned.

I just felt that either BMW took a different direction or they were genuinely ignorant regarding the importance of limiting weights in their vehicles this time. I hope they strike the right balance next time before its too late.But pumping out the M6 and M5 in 2012 with those curb weights is just wrong or arrogance on BMW's part[when they knew that its direct competitors are flashing their advantage].

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by luvthestck

I was mentioning BMW cars in general..I had no intention to single out F10.There is no contest between A6 and the F10 when it comes to comfort.The seats in a6 for its price range are a disgrace.I am looking to replace my family vehicle and am interested in the F10/07.I wanted to make sure if the weight would be a permissible advantage viz. more stability at highway speeds as u have mentioned.

I just felt that either BMW took a different direction or they were genuinely ignorant regarding the importance of limiting weights in their vehicles this time. I hope they strike the right balance next time before its too late.But pumping out the M6 and M5 in 2012 with those curb weights is just wrong or arrogance on BMW's part[when they knew that its direct competitors are flashing their advantage].

Well, if you look at your 1st post, the S6 is still over a 100lb heavier than the M5. If you ever drove the A6 and the 535xi back to back, you would have thought the A6 was maybe 300-400 pounds lighter, not the 180 lbs or so according to the specs. The A6 is so much more agile and takes off from the line much quicker, the powertrain of the A6 makes the car feels lighter. The 5 series having a much more solid feel to it also make it feel heavier when driven.
The Japanese have been making light weight vehicles for a long time, would you say that most Japanese cars do not feel as solid as the German cars? I am all for making lighter weight cars, but not at the expense of a flimsy feeling car, rattles or noise.

[bimmerjph]

If you look back at the weights of the previous 5-Series you will see that there is no linear increase in weight as many believe. The E34 530i weighed something like 3700 lbs, and then its replacement the E39 530i weighed 3550 lbs. So this shows they use new technology to adapt to new safety regulations as it becomes cost effective. The next 5er will use a lot of Carbon fiber so I expect the weight will be drastically reduced.

[sali]

I agree for the most part.
My 2011 535i - 4090 lbs
Jaguar XJ (V8) - 4045 lbs (bigger car with a V8)
My Jaguar XJ SC (V8 supercharged) - 4281 lbs
2011 550i - 4375 lbs

It is more profitable to make luxury cars which appeals to a wider audience vs performance oriented cars (most people don't like heavy steering and stiff suspension). I thought since BMW was largely family owned (42%), they would not care about every extra cent like a typical management (BMW made 4.3 EUR per share in 2006 vs 7.01 EUR per share in 2011)

[kave]

The F10 is the first 5-series to have what I call acceptable safety, E60 recieved lower ratings than any cheap Renault or Toyota in EuroNCAP. To me its not acceptable.
Probably BMWs focus is not to use the toughest steel in its products like Volvo does.
Bmw is the company making most money, so clearly we dont care about this matter

[delvek]

Originally Posted by Estimated Prophet

They are on pace to sell around 60,000 5 series in the USA this year if sales hold steady. YTD sales are up 13% over last year. From what I can gather worldwide sales are also strong. So, even though some enthusiasts may see the 5 series as a failure I doubt BMW corporate sees it that way with the strong sales numbers being posted.

Well said.

[HighlandPete]

I see weight as only one part of the efficiency drive. There can be issues with lighter cars which doesn't always sit well with the luxury segment. We start with user perceptions, like a solid car feel. Never mind the technicalities like unsprung weight ratios. BMW engineers will be well aware of all the implications. I'm positive the design and development path has been chosen, not a result of a big mistake.

Also something like the F10 being based on F01 7-series floorpan/technology, will have a major influence on the weight issue. Front suspension is more complex to get a more luxurious ride. The car is larger than the previous generation, so likely a penalty simply from that fact alone.

But looking at the F30 where size has also grown, BMW engineers have kept to similar technology as the E9x range and sliced a little weight off the models.

And has been said, we are not just looking at the sporty side of BMW here. Many BMW users are wanting the balance moved to more of a luxury feel to the drive of the cars. Sales are holding up, reflecting this move is on the money. I know here in the UK many of the criticisms against BMW is for the premium price, the cars can lack refinement. The latest generations of the range are sorting this out.

Ride quality is not so weight critical, as long as the suspension and unsprung weight get sufficient attention.

I've watched the weight debate in the car industry over many years. When there is a surge for lighter vehicles there is usually a bit of a backlash, as folks find light family cars just don't feel up market enough.

HighlandPete

[The X Men]

Very said said HighlandPete, its hard to keep the weight down when the F10 shares components with the 7 series and the Rolls Royal Ghost. Some people might say perception is 90% of work. Well, the 5 series feels heavy and most people associate heaviness with high quality. As far as the F30 is concerned, my opinion is that it feels light, as it should because it is a 3 series, but quality wise, it feels about the same if not worst than the E90. There is no extensive use of aluminium in the F30 compare to the E90, in fact, the front sub frame went from aluminium to steel on the F30, the oil pan is now made of plastic. The seats are thinner, its has less sound insulation and interior panels are hard plastic. In my opinion, the F30 is a perfect example of what not to do when lowering weight.