[gestalt77]

I hear that N20 I4 turbo engine, which will be in 2012 528i, uses 1.2 bar boost. In the case of N55, 0.8 bar. Will N20 be more prone to fail than N55, due to higher boost pressure? It's GDI + higher turbo boost... I am afraid that especially 1st year batch may be pretty unreliable...

[dpwr]

nobody knows, you would think they would learn from previous turbo engine that caused so much trouble.... but nothing will surprise me, they knew about that fuel pump failure for years and didn't do anything to fix it

[Lucky13]

There's been no problem with the 1.6 turbo 4 in the Mini S and they have been making it since 2007.

[pyramid]

The way I see it, good thing about BMW is higher engineered car both in engines and electronics department, but it is also their weaknesses in terms of reliability. This is where benz fits in, just enough technology in return of "seems" to be a more reliable car.

[LuvMyE92]

That does seem like a very high boost. I'm sure that they've engineered the engine to survive the boost throughout the duration of the warranty period though. No worries.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by pyramid

The way I see it, good thing about BMW is higher engineered car both in engines and electronics department, but it is also their weaknesses in terms of reliability. This is where benz fits in, just enough technology in return of "seems" to be a more reliable car.

I agree, I have never encountered a broken MB engine/drivetrain ..
Totally agree, BMW seems to be push it so that the failure rate is just acceptable, MB is don't push it at all and never have any problems.

[EdM5]

Originally Posted by pyramid

The way I see it, good thing about BMW is higher engineered car both in engines and electronics department, but it is also their weaknesses in terms of reliability. This is where benz fits in, just enough technology in return of "seems" to be a more reliable car.

Okay, let's enter some facts. In Germany in 2010, the most reliable cars (according to the ADAC Pannenstatistik, http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfal...aspx?pstatid=3 ) were:

Subcompact / Kleinwagen
1. BMW Mini
2. Peugeot 207
3. Mitsubishi Colt
4. Opel Meriva
5. Nissan Note

Compact / Untere Mittelklasse
1. BMW 1-series
2. Audi A3
3. Peugeot 308
4. Mercedes B-type
5. Mercedes A-type

Compact executive / Mittelklasse
1. BMW X3
2. Mercedes C-type
3. BMW 3-series
4. Mercedes SLK
5. Audi A4

Executive / Obere Mittelklasse
1. Audi A5
2. BMW 5-series
3. Audi A6
4. Mercedes E-type
5. Volvo S60/S70/S80/V70

So much for Benz being more reliable than BMW . Note that American cars are very rare in Germany and that only a decade ago, the Japanese manufacturers ruled these statistics. Seems that times have changed though.

[Sedoy]

MBs are more reliable in the states than BMWs (http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...s-by-category/).

Entry Premium Car
1. American
2. Japanese
…
8. Mercedes C-class
9. Audi A4
10. BMW 3 Series

Midsize Premium Car
1. Japanese
2. Japanese
…
6. Mercedes E-class
7. Audi A6
8. BMW 5 Series

Large Premium Car
1. American
2. Japanese
3. Mercedes S-class
4. BMW 7 Series

Midsize Premium Crossover SUV
1. Japanese
2. Japanese
…
7. Mercedes M-class
…
9. Audi Q7
…
11. BMW X5

Originally Posted by EdwinF10

Okay, let's enter some facts. In Germany in 2010, the most reliable cars (according to the ADAC Pannenstatistik, http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfal...aspx?pstatid=3 ) were:

Subcompact / Kleinwagen
1. BMW Mini
2. Peugeot 207
3. Mitsubishi Colt
4. Opel Meriva
5. Nissan Note

Compact / Untere Mittelklasse
1. BMW 1-series
2. Audi A3
3. Peugeot 308
4. Mercedes B-type
5. Mercedes A-type

Compact executive / Mittelklasse
1. BMW X3
2. Mercedes C-type
3. BMW 3-series
4. Mercedes SLK
5. Audi A4

Executive / Obere Mittelklasse
1. Audi A5
2. BMW 5-series
3. Audi A6
4. Mercedes E-type
5. Volvo S60/S70/S80/V70

So much for Benz being more reliable than BMW . Note that American cars are very rare in Germany and that only a decade ago, the Japanese manufacturers ruled these statistics. Seems that times have changed though.

[EdM5]

Thanks Sedoy, nice comparison of German vs. US ratings with several outright contradictions.
The big question now is, what's the most reliable statistics?

[Sedoy]

Which stats are more reliable...? I guess both, since there are more engines (with less HP) available in Europe vs. US. Here in US we mostly get petroleum engines with higher HP and it looks like BMW does better job building diesel engines...

Originally Posted by EdwinF10

Thanks Sedoy, nice comparison of German vs. US ratings with several outright contradictions.
The big question now is, what's the most reliable statistics?

[EdM5]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Which stats are more reliable...? I guess both, since there are more engines (with less HP) available in Europe vs. US. Here in US we mostly get petroleum engines with higher HP and it looks like BMW does better job building diesel engines...

That is indeed a significant difference, in some european markets, diesel cars account for 80% of car sales.
Also, premium japanese brands like Lexus, Acura, Infiniti (all of which score very well in JDPower's rating) are virtually non-existent in Europe.

[LuvMyE92]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Which stats are more reliable...?

I think it depends on your definition of reliable.

No, seriously, what does it mean? Does it mean stuck on the shoulder of the road waiting for a tow, or not taking it in for warranty service every two months because some stupid computer has freaked out and you've got warning lights and "limp home mode" crap going on every time you turn around?

[clarence]

Originally Posted by grimlock

I agree, I have never encountered a broken MB engine/drivetrain ..
Totally agree, BMW seems to be push it so that the failure rate is just acceptable, MB is don't push it at all and never have any problems.

There were problems with MB's M272 engine.
BMW engine problems concentrate on the upper end of the range, their bread & butter stuff are more problem free.

[clarence]

Originally Posted by EdwinF10

Also, premium japanese brands like Lexus, Acura, Infiniti (all of which score very well in JDPower's rating) are virtually non-existent in Europe.

The sample size in Europe is too small for Lexus & Infiniti (the latter only entered the mkt for 2-3yrs). The only Acura currently on sale in EU is badged as a Honda.

[SteVTEC]

Here's JD Power's 2011 Vehicle Dependability Study.

http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/JD...11029-vdss.pdf

MB has improved a lot, while Audi and BMW are still below average. This is for US cars, so pretty much all petrol engines and no diesels. Consumer Reports magazine in the U.S. also has reliability tables like this available, and for each car, but it's subscriber only.

Here's Top Gear from the UK, but 2006 was the most recent I could find.

http://www.topgear.com/content/carsu...ures/08/2.html

[Sedoy]

Which MBs did you own, because MB improved a lot since they divorced with Chrysler, so all new models after Chrysler have much better reliability. On the over hand BMW reliability (engines especially) went down after introduction of new petroleum turbo charge era.

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

MB suck I had 3 of them and all three had rust problems. My E500 was the worst though. It had it's engine replaced due to metal fatigue. Then I had all 4 airshocks replaced also. This within 6 years of ownership. Trust me MB have there problems also but they try very hard not to let the public know and also they have less enthusiasts so they don't vent on forums as much or they are so clueless they have no idea even if something is wrong with their car if it is minor.

[Sedoy]

BMW "bread & butter" N54 engine, which had the most application of all engines (1-series, 3-series, 5-series, 7-series and X6) was rated as one of the least reliable engine in the history of BMW.
GREAT performance engine nevertheless!

Originally Posted by clarence

There were problems with MB's M272 engine.
BMW engine problems concentrate on the upper end of the range, their bread & butter stuff are more problem free.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

MB suck I had 3 of them and all three had rust problems. My E500 was the worst though. It had it's engine replaced due to metal fatigue. Then I had all 4 airshocks replaced also. This within 6 years of ownership. Trust me MB have there problems also but they try very hard not to let the public know and also they have less enthusiasts so they don't vent on forums as much or they are so clueless they have no idea even if something is wrong with their car if it is minor.

Unlucky dude, i think all cars have their problems, if we wanted to be truly objective we couldn't really say that much.. (and I would have to shut up) Less enthuasts totally agree..

Originally Posted by clarence

There were problems with MB's M272 engine.
BMW engine problems concentrate on the upper end of the range, their bread & butter stuff are more problem free.

That's why I avoid those SL's, CL's, AMG's etc.

[Sedoy]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Unlucky dude, i think all cars have their problems, if we wanted to be truly objective we couldn't really say that much.. (and I would have to shut up) Less enthuasts totally agree..

Yep, but even after tranny failed on my X5 well below 100K I still love my car.

[gestalt77]

That's true. In the case of MB E class, the reliability of 2004-2009 models were bad... But now W212 E class' reliability seems to be very good. Impression is that MB and Audi are improving a lot, whereas BMW stays at the same level in terms of reliability. I do respect BMW indeed, since they push the frontier of technology.

[gestalt77]

IMHO, to be a "good car", at least powertrain should be reliable and rocksolid... I understand problems in electric devices. However, I can't tolerate problems in powertrain. In this sense, BMW is a "nice car", but not a "good car" to me.

I give more scores to MB in this regard. Good tradeoff between new technologies and reliability. BMW should step up the game in terms of powertrain reliability.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by gestalt77

That's true. In the case of MB E class, the reliability of 2004-2009 models were bad... But now W212 E class' reliability seems to be very good.

That's just because it's new and hasn't had a chance to fall apart yet. You can't judge a new car's reliability until it's the same age as the 2004-2009's today. Of course a 10/11 model year car should be more reliable than an 04-09, simply because of age.