2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
 

2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 F10 Technical Topics Wheels / Tires / Suspension / Brakes Michelin PS4S - I don't remember UHP tires being this fragile
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-31-2018, 09:48 AM   #1
Surly73
Lieutenant Colonel
Canada
525
Rep
1,868
Posts

Drives: '11 535xi 8AT KWv3 MPE MHD xHP
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Oakville, Ontario

iTrader: (1)

Michelin PS4S - I don't remember UHP tires being this fragile

So - need new summer tires and I have a set of PS4S ready to mount on my summer wheels early next week.

In the meantime I happened across the following text online:

Quote:
The Pilot Sport 4S excels in warm dry and wet conditions, so like all Max Performance Summer tires, is not intended to be serviced, stored nor driven in near- and below-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.
and

Quote:
Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced.

I DIY as much as I can, including swapping over winter/summer tire sets. Since I can do this myself, in as little as 10-15 minutes in a pinch, I sometimes push my luck to be on summer rubber as much as possible. I'm not talking snow, but sometimes a cold front comes through and overnight temps go below freezing, but it's dry and just a day or two, and all I might need to do is get to the train station for work so it doesn't matter.

I've never seen anything mentioned like the text I quoted in my ~20 years of running UHP summer tires. I get that they aren't at their best. And I get that you'd have to be fool to run them in real winter weather. But even just "adjusting inflation pressures" causing irreversible damage? I could see problems if you tried a track day in -10C or something but....wow.

If I had to guarantee absolutely no "near freezing" conditions, I couldn't switch to summer tires until June and they'd have to come off some time in September. Meanwhile I'd be totally murdering my winter tires since it could be 15C and blazing sunshine during the day. This is my DD and only vehicle, I can't just hop into another car because it got near freezing. (Sure, you could argue that I don't need PS4S on a porker like the F10 and should have got something like Pilot A/S 3 or something, but that's not what I want )

I really hope it's an overly cautious warning. Places like Colorado and Arizona would be even worse than where I am for huge temperature swings. And those poor people taking their summer toy cars to the mechanic for that last oil change prior to storage at the end of the season...
Appreciate 0
      03-31-2018, 10:13 AM   #2
ezaircon4jc
Major General
ezaircon4jc's Avatar
United_States
4259
Rep
5,285
Posts

Drives: 2019 540i M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

I took a set of UHP summer tires into cold temps (below ~43º) twice. Both times the tires felt more like hard plastic than any form of rubber. It started to snow a little (like a dusting) and the temp was around 37º when the car became pretty much undriveable; it was that unsafe! This was also at speeds less than about 35mph.

Your life isn't worth pushing to get the most out a set of tires. Just suck it up and have either 3 sets of tires or ditch the UHP summer (they're called "summer" for a reason) tyres for a good set of all-seasons.

After those 2 experiences I refused to visit my sister-in-law's mountain once the temps started falling; until I went to an all-season tyre.
Appreciate 0
      03-31-2018, 10:40 AM   #3
Surly73
Lieutenant Colonel
Canada
525
Rep
1,868
Posts

Drives: '11 535xi 8AT KWv3 MPE MHD xHP
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Oakville, Ontario

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc View Post
I took a set of UHP summer tires into cold temps (below ~43º) twice. Both times the tires felt more like hard plastic than any form of rubber. It started to snow a little (like a dusting) and the temp was around 37º when the car became pretty much undriveable; it was that unsafe! This was also at speeds less than about 35mph.

Your life isn't worth pushing to get the most out a set of tires. Just suck it up and have either 3 sets of tires or ditch the UHP summer (they're called "summer" for a reason) tyres for a good set of all-seasons.

After those 2 experiences I refused to visit my sister-in-law's mountain once the temps started falling; until I went to an all-season tyre.
The TL;DR - I'm talking about DAMAGE, not PERFORMANCE


Actually, I found that my UHP summer rubber still gave me better handling and braking than a set of winter tires. I believe it was full winter tires, not "performance" winter tires mind you. All the sipes create so much squirm it kills braking. I think I was out shopping on my UHPs, came home, swapped onto my winters, then went for my 'shake down' test drive and noticed that, as usual, my braking performance went to **** even though it was -5C or something (dry).

I don't think "suck it up" is very useful. I was never contesting that driving on UHP was a good idea sub-freezing. I was not complaining that they weren't grippy enough at freezing temperatures. I was not asking the group if I should just run my UHPs through the winter (like I see posted on car forums all the time). And I'm not talking about hitting the track and pushing the limits. I'm talking about Michelin saying "permanent damage" just from adjusting tire pressures. I'm talking about getting caught in a dry, 35F overnight in mid-May and it's back in the 60s by the afternoon. Seriously. We spend months here with "near freezing" a possibility at night with no snow in sight. And I've driven UHP near freezing lots of times in the last 20 years, and if it was dry they were still more confident than winters. (done this on Bridgestone S-02 PP, Toyo T1S, Toyo T1R, Michelin PS2 and Michelin PSS)

I suppose my question is more whether modern compounds are more fragile, or whether the fine print on UHPs always said this and I just never noticed before. They even say that "supporting the weight of the vehicle" would cause damage. What about a summer car parked in an unheated garage over the winter (done that for a few years too)?

Not getting a third set of tires either. I've already spent about $3000 in the last six months keeping up the two sets I already have going.
Appreciate 0
      03-31-2018, 01:43 PM   #4
Surly73
Lieutenant Colonel
Canada
525
Rep
1,868
Posts

Drives: '11 535xi 8AT KWv3 MPE MHD xHP
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Oakville, Ontario

iTrader: (1)

So another data point.

The quotes on my first post were from TireRack, found in the PS4S description text.

If I pull up the PS4S page on michelinman.ca (Michelin's site for Canada) here's the only warning I find:

Quote:
Summer tires are primarily designed for high-performance vehicles and provide optimal dry and wet performance levels in a temperate environment. Summer tires are not designed to be used during the winter season where temperatures are colder and approach freezing consistently as their performance would be less than optimal.
I find that completely reasonable and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it at all. Terms like "constantly" and "performance [...] less than optimal". I get all that.

"Don't adjust your tire pressures below 5C" is a little startling.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2018, 05:16 AM   #5
equ
First Lieutenant
22
Rep
331
Posts

Drives: Croc & toaster
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dogville

iTrader: (10)

I haven't seen warnings of that sort before... But I think there may be a something beyond liability. My 535i or a similar car has been my daily, and I religiously switch to winters (NYC area). Also, for the last twelve or so years, I have kept a sports car (m3, cayman or boxster) as my weekend/fair-weather driver that I don't change tires on. I don't drive them frequently in the winter. Mainly avoid salt. Occasionally took them out in freezing days.

I do think summer tires get damaged. The PSS on the e46 m3 did well, but the p-zero's and ps2's on my porsches lost grip (became hard plastic) long before the tread was gone.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:46 PM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST