[Bitchn5ive]

Hello to all

Just wanted forewarn that I suspect Bootmod3 OTS Maps to cause engine failure. Mine failed... twice!

2015 550i stock motor had 19k when I flashed it with stage 1 OTS map. Occasionally, the car would buck/hesitate under WOT. At 29k miles, went into limp mode. Diagnosed with scored cylinder walls; wouldn't hold compression.

Dealer replaced motor with brand new one under warranty (didn't find tune). New motor had catless downpipes installed, all fuel injectors replaced, and went to stage 2 OTS map. Still bucking/hesitating occasionally under WOT. Exactly one year later at 39k miles, same issue. Limp mode, cylinder walls scored, wouldn't hold compression.

Replaced motor again with BMW reman ($16k, my expense). No tune. Catless DP's remain. Has 56k miles now and showing no signs of a single issue.

On stage 1, car would occasionally buck/hesitate only under a quick WOT event to the point it felt like it was stalling out, let off throttle and it would recover. It would cause you to come forward in your seat from the loss of power under WOT. (Later on and after speaking to and paying several experts for their opinion, my best guess is that it was likely superknock or pre-ignition causing the sensation.) I reported it to Bootmod3 along with my concern and jumped through all their hoops (some of which were nonsensical) and waited for their responses. They sent several different maps for me to "try" on my car. Those maps caused other issues when I 'tested' them and I always quickly returned to the OTS map. I explained that I am at altitude (approx 5,800 feet) and inquired about their OTS being ok to run or if they had one for altitude or if I should look into different MAF sensors, etc to which they didn't believe was required. I was repeatedly reassured that the OTS map is ran all over the world including at altitude and they have no issues. I sent them numerous logs under different conditions as they requested and they never identified any problem nor suggested there might be any issue from all of the logs I sent. (After the fact, I had some experts look over the same logs and I was told Bootmod3 should have spotted and questioned some of what that data was showing which leads me to wonder if they ever actually looked over the logs or if whoever did knew what they were looking at.)

This took place even after the 1st motor was replaced. I begged them to be more thorough with looking over the logs and that I didn't want to be out the expense to replace the motor and that it would be the 2nd time. They continued to reassure me that their OTS maps are solid and work fine at altitude and suggested it was something wrong with the car and not their tune. Uh huh, EXTREMELY DOUBTFUL but of course there isn't a smoking gun.

Thought I'd post this FWIW to anyone considering an OTS map with Bootmod3. Good luck!

[mike@x-ph.com]

Out of the tens of thousands of bm3 users with your engine, 99.99% are not having issues, and you had your engine fail twice.

Maybe something is missing from the story. It could be lousy fuel quality or that you were running maps too aggressive for your mods.

Im not accusing you of lying, im only saying the odds of this happening exactly how you described it are extremely low.
Also, why would you use the same tune after it damaged your first engine per your claim?

I recommend you be more specific on the experts' finding you mentioned, post the logs, and publish their responses on what they identified as problems that PTF missed.

[Hoa]

It could be your fuel pump not delivering not enough fuel for hard acceleration with a tune but enough for normal driving so it doesn't throw a code for stock map and is safe to drive.

[Bitchn5ive]

Mike: You may want to reconsider your approach here. 1st, you possess a bias I do not. I have zero interest in whether or not anyone else buys BM3 or doesn't. You do... clearly... from the amount of bumps I have seen you make touting their platform. I am simply an experienced user of their OTS maps with two major catastrophic events happening within the exact same time frame, mileage, and cause (as I stated, scored cylinder walls following what I believe to be super knock as a result of BM3 OTS map). Many more miles of driving the same car without the tune (both before the tune and after two BM3 tuned motors) and there have been zero issues (zero stalling, zero logged knock events) on the stock map. I clearly stated there was "no smoking gun" but wanted to warn others of my experience. Then you entered the picture with unbacked claims (99.99%) defending BM3 and a borderline attack of my integrity.

That said, I could (if I was so inclined) site several posts on this forum alone discouraging the use of OTS maps from BM3. Your claim of 99.99% is far-fetched and I'm confident you have no hard data to back that up but if I'm wrong, I'm sure myself and the majority of users who tune would love to see that! Especially if you are blindly telling me (and the other users of this forum) that the chances of what I'm saying happening are "extremely low", that sounds dangerously close to accusing me of lying. What I said happened, did happen. The exact reasoning as to what caused the internal engine damage is unknown, was stated as such, and I made no direct accusations. I did, however, suggest there is a STRIKING coincidence when you look at the related FACTS and stated my opinion which I think I'm entitled to, don't you, Mike?

I stated facts and made my opinion based on those facts clear. What I said and how it happened were exactly as I stated it and I have ample documentation (I keep everything) to support that before you proceed any further with that nonsense. In fact, you sound very similar to the customer support responses from BM3. You don't work for them do you? Your approach deters people like me from posting their experiences which does assist you further in your misplaced confidence in stating some arbitrary number like 99.99% and for it to go unchallenged.

I outlined my mods and stated I ran OTS maps from BM3 with the exception of the maps BM3 sent me directly to try (for no more than a day or two were the "test maps'" they sent active on my car). NO ONE else provided any maps for my car and still has not. Therefore, if it was too aggressive, that would have bee the fault of BM3 in this scenario.

The reason I ran another map (not the same one as you put it) from BM3 is due to three reasons: 1) I allowed BM3 to convince me (as you are attempting to do) that it wasn't their OTS map. 2) I switched to stage 2 with catless dp's hoping a different OTS map wouldn't have the same outcome. 3) I convinced my self the problem was related to my fuel delivery which I replaced all the fuel injectors before the 2nd motor.

The only reasonable thing that I took from your post is that, "maybe there is more to the story". That could be. MAYBE. Not sure what and I'm a pretty analytical / logical guy who can't come up with anything else (nor can 3 BMW master techs who have looked over and worked on my car) but I'm not saying it doesn't exist. Again, I'm warning others of my experience and as I stated, "FWIW" (For what it's worth... just in case I need to be more clear).

As for your recommendation, I've spent countless hours on this as it is and a good chunk of change as I stated. I don't feel the need to provide documentation to support my post as I'm just trying to be helpful and only citing my experience FWIW. I'm not interested in engaging in a documented debate (publishing what others have said and who they are without their permission to appease someone who is biased against me) but if someone was having similar issues and seemed more genuinely interested in knowing more as it could help their situation, that would be the exception I'd be willing to make just because I have learned a lot from this forum and would be willing to spend some time giving back in that regard.

However, Mike, I owe you nothing and I don't appreciate your approach. Challenging me on if it happened how I described it, is a mistake. I suspect you just didn't like my suggestive approach that it was likely the result of BM3 (In My Opinion) which is fine but don't question if events took place as I outlined them. There is ample documentation to back that up.

Good luck to all the users with tunes out there!!

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Out of the tens of thousands of bm3 users with your engine, 99.99% are not having issues, and you had your engine fail twice.

Maybe something is missing from the story. It could be lousy fuel quality or that you were running maps too aggressive for your mods.

Im not accusing you of lying, im only saying the odds of this happening exactly how you described it are extremely low.
Also, why would you use the same tune after it damaged your first engine per your claim?

I recommend you be more specific on the experts' finding you mentioned, post the logs, and publish their responses on what they identified as problems that PTF missed.

[Bitchn5ive]

Originally Posted by Hoa

It could be your fuel pump not delivering not enough fuel for hard acceleration with a tune but enough for normal driving so it doesn't throw a code for stock map and is safe to drive.

Very logical thought. I assumed the same. I'll provide a bit further clarification here:

All 8 fuel injectors were replaced when the 1st replacement motor went in. However, your thought of the pumps didn't occur to me until after the 2nd motor blew. So, I did have the HPFP's replaced on the 2nd replacement motor (3rd actual motor in the car and the current one). However, I put the BM3 stage 2 OTS map back on it for a test run. Within three attempts of WOT, the car did the exact same bucking/hesitation (which I have a log of but don't know how to post it) so I immediately went back to stock map and haven't flashed it again since. That was about 1.5 years ago and 17k miles on this reman BMW motor stock map with catless dp's and logs show no knock events at all since that one.

[Bitchn5ive]

Mind you, even after all of this and working with BM3 customer support reps via their online portal, they kept simply sending me test maps to try.

I tried to get a phone number to arrange discussions between BM3 and my techs and/or one very well known tuner out here in Denver. They are only willing to do that via online portal which is very frustrating. They are in another country so getting business hours to match up is unlikely and oftentimes you'd have to wait until the following day at like 3a.m. to get a response.

Not sure if you guys know anyone in the car tuning/customization/dyno shops who are willing to leave your car overnight several times just to get a single answer (I don't know anyone who has time for that if you can even get into their shop in the first place). Even then, sometimes we felt their answers were so ambiguous that it was intentional. We started attempting to ask multiple questions at the same time to expedite resolutions but BM3 would often only answer one or two of the questions which left us repeating the questions and again waiting another entire day. People get tired of that and I'm hard pressed to believe BM3 isn't well aware of that. It wouldn't surprise me if it is a well-known and intentional method of operation on their behalf. I can tell you I dropped it several times and even when I pushed through the frustration and came back (even after outlining all this which has happened), they adjusted nothing in their efforts to assist.

That is another reason I decided to post this and I informed them I would be so they were given many opportunities. It is a shame.

Unless they restrict my access to their portal, once again, I have ample documentation to back all of this up should the need arise. In fact, even if they do restrict my access, I saved most of the correspondence with them due to my shock/disbelief at their unwillingness to take a closer look nor escalate their approach.

[Bitchn5ive]

To be clear, I have no issue with purchasing a BM3 platform. I just highly discourage the use of their OTS maps based on my experience. You may be fine. Roll the dice if you choose but, at the end of the day, you are running a risk. The biggest question you should ask yourself is, "are you willing to pay to play". Especially with a OTS map but even a custom one, you'd better be willing to accept the potential consequences.

In my case call it the tune, call it the car, call it whatever you want.... I've had no issues with the car on its stock map for approximately 38k miles of driving in total on that map. On the other hand, with BM3 stage 1 OTS map, the first motor lasted 12 months / 10k miles and with BM3 stage 2 OTS map, the second motor lasted 12 months/ 10k miles. Current motor has approximately 17k miles on the stock map, no issues, cylinder walls scoped and no scoring. Those are facts that can't be legitimately argued!

[BimmerHausPerformance]

David Shoup told me there is a race to the bottom here between platforms. You have bm3 and MHD. If you heard MHD made more power which one would you buy? So that puts them in a position to push limits to make sales, but leaves us at risk. It is NOT uncommon to do damage on an OTS due to this very fact. Custom tunes are the way to go. No way can you have a high output OTS map that is one size fits all!!

[Bitchn5ive]

Originally Posted by BrowBMW

David Shoup told me there is a race to the bottom here between platforms. You have bm3 and MHD. If you heard MHD made more power which one would you buy? So that puts them in a position to push limits to make sales, but leaves us at risk. It is NOT uncommon to do damage on an OTS due to this very fact. Custom tunes are the way to go. No way can you have a high output OTS map that is one size fits all!!

Good logical point. I'd hope they wouldn't put our engines at risk over a few horsepower and potentially their reputation but... money talks (albeit a short-sighted approach)... so maybe.

I'd submit that these OTS maps push the limit (maybe a bit more than they should) and generally run safely but introduce an element slightly outside the parameters they account for (ie. an aspect of the car might be off, environmental differences, etc) and you have a potential recipe for disaster with fail safe components dumbed down or turned off for the sake of the tune.

Moral of the story does seem to be to purchase a custom tune from someone who knows what the hell they are doing and won't put your motor at risk.

[Unspec]

Just gonna put this out there: the forums, including yourself and I, are a hilariously small percentage of BM3 users. Saying that lots of forum members have reported issues is meaningless, since the people who are most likely to complain about BM3/MHD are the ones who have issues to begin with.

The OTS maps aren't black boxes of voodoo magic. If they were truly doing something unsafe and putting customer motors at risk, tuners would have pointed it out by now.

[BimmerHausPerformance]

Originally Posted by Unspec

Just gonna put this out there: the forums, including yourself and I, are a hilariously small percentage of BM3 users. Saying that lots of forum members have reported issues is meaningless, since the people who are most likely to complain about BM3/MHD are the ones who have issues to begin with.

The OTS maps aren't black boxes of voodoo magic. If they were truly doing something unsafe and putting customer motors at risk, tuners would have pointed it out by now.

That’s what I just said. Tuners are pointing it out based on the reasons I gave. Just like he said if one thing is off, a general tune that is pushing the limits could cause failures.

[Unspec]

Originally Posted by BrowBMW

That’s what I just said. Tuners are pointing it out based on the reasons I gave. Just like he said if one thing is off, a general tune that is pushing the limits could cause failures.

I have not seen Shoup point out an actual issue on the record. Do you have a source of him stating that there is actually an outstanding issue?

Also, not saying OP shouldn't share their experiences, but trying to draw a correlation with anecdotal evidence is misleading and helps neither sides of the argument.

[BimmerHausPerformance]

Originally Posted by Unspec

I have not seen Shoup point out an actual issue on the record. Do you have a source of him stating that there is actually an outstanding issue?

Also, not saying OP shouldn't share their experiences. But trying to draw a correlation with anecdotal evidence is misleading.

We talked about it on the phone. It was a passing comment. Making a comment of record? Let's use some common sense: He needs MHD and has a working relationship with them. I wouldn't think it would be in his best interest to come out and bash their maps and tell everyone they should get a custom tune lol.

I have noticed he is very careful not to dog on anybody in the industry, which makes sense. He tunes cars, he isn't part of any oversight committee. :-)

[Bitchn5ive]

Originally Posted by Unspec

I have not seen Shoup point out an actual issue on the record. Do you have a source of him stating that there is actually an outstanding issue?

Also, not saying OP shouldn't share their experiences, but trying to draw a correlation with anecdotal evidence is misleading and helps neither sides of the argument.

I have a different opinion on that. Anyone who has experienced two blown motors will make efforts to draw correlations... or they just have money to blow and don't care. Plus, I prefer to hear the opinion of people who have experienced something significant like that whether their assumptions are correct or not. It is up to the listener/reader to accept or challenge what they choose.

It is the most logical conclusion I can draw, so I decided to share it... plus, I made it clear I could be wrong in my assumptions. Doing/saying nothing would have done nothing to help either side of the argument.

Additionally, I don't believe pointing out the fact that several members have had issues is meaningless. It seems 'maybe' you are ok with discounting or ignoring information you don't want to hear? That said, I do see your point about it likely being a smaller percentage, yep. But, consider that there are likely people that have had issues and don't partake in forums as well. I couldn't begin to quantify that number but it is a consideration.

Finally, this isn't about trying to find a smoking gun as much as it is to point out that OTS maps are not the best way to go AND BM3 should have done more (IMHO) to look at my isolated case and/or put the same warnings about their OTS maps (as 'most' people here would agree aren't the best option) and a strong caveat that custom tunes may be better suited depending on other variables/circumstances (instead of pushing their OTS maps as though they are bulletproof and no one mentions possible concerns). I believe there to be enough reporting/circumstantial evidence to say that they are not the your best bet when customizing your ECU (In my opinion).

Let me see if I can attach a log of what mine was doing on occasional WOT after 2nd replacement motor, newer fuel injectors (replaced with 1st motor swap), and brand new HPFP's. I believe some might prefer to look at that and maybe better help them draw their own conclusions.

[Bitchn5ive]

It's giving me an "invalid file" message. Any ideas on how else to do that?

Sorry, posting files on forums is not my strong suit.

[mike@x-ph.com]

I don't understand why people post on the forums then get defensive when someone disagrees with them.

Im a PTF vendor; I am biased; that's not a secret. But I have a 10-year history where I side with customers if they are right. Whether im a vendor or not does not change the argument's validity.
BTW BM3 has over 200 000 active users, if 1% had issues, that's over 2000 customers. I'd be surprised if you can find 50 complaints let alone 2000

I said some details are missing from the story, and we need more information as you are making big claims.
Your response, yeah, things might be missing, and no, im not providing any proof because I don't need to.

Your call, but I and others are allowed to doubt it since you refuse to prove the logs and the expert's opinion about PTF missing red flags.

You have the time to post a 1-page response mostly about me, but no time to post a datalog.

I have no interest in the back and forth, and im sure you do not either. Good luck

[Bitchn5ive]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I don't understand why people post on the forums then get defensive when someone disagrees with them.

Im a PTF vendor; I am biased; that's not a secret. But I have a 10-year history where I side with customers if they are right. Whether im a vendor or not does not change the argument's validity.

I said some details are missing from the story, and we need more information as you are making big claims.
Your response, yeah, things might be missing, and no, im not providing any proof because I don't need to.

Your call, but I and others are allowed to doubt it since you refuse to prove the logs and the expert's opinion about PTF missing red flags.

You have the time to post a 1-page response mostly about me, but no time to post a datalog.

I have no interest in the back and forth, and im sure you do not either. Good luck

I admit that I did get defensive, as did you (of PTF) AND you are biased AND you cited 99.99% which you also cannot prove.

It was due to your "approach" as I stated.

Further, I edited my initial post to make it even more suggestive to ensure I wasn't received as though I was making a direct claim. That's just it... IT is very difficult to make a direct claim or find a smoking gun but I'm not going to be silent with my experience just because I can't prove my theory.

I'm happy to post a log. I'm not going to go looking through e-mails and cropping / screen-shoting what other have said in confidence to engage in what could likely amount to be a long drawn-out back and forth and especially without their permission. I will post a log of the event that was taking place for you and/or anyone else to review to draw their own conclusions. Just can't get it to upload. Any help offered would be accepted.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Bitchn5ive

I will post a log of the event that was taking place for you and/or anyone else to review to draw their own conclusions. Just can't get it to upload. Any help offered would be accepted.

https://datazap.me/

[Bitchn5ive]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

https://datazap.me/

Thank you.

Let's see...

https://datazap.me/u/bitchn5ive/log-...log=0&data=3-6

Not sure how it will be viewed but looking over the sheet, not the graph, the issue happened between rows 504 and 520.

I realize this is not the proper way to log but I have to apply the throttle in a specific manner to intentionally replicate the event and catch it in a log. It happened on the last WOT of this log.

[Bmwdoubles_]

Originally Posted by Bitchn5ive

Thank you.

Let's see...

https://datazap.me/u/bitchn5ive/log-...0&data=3-6

Not sure how it will be viewed but looking over the sheet, not the graph, the issue happened between rows 504 and 520.

I realize this is not the proper way to log but I have to apply the throttle in a specific manner to intentionally replicate the event and catch it in a log. It happened on the last WOT of this log.

Sorry to hear about all this, buddy. I just totaled my 5, but that's another story that I'm about to post here soon.

The N63TU or non TU is a motor riddled with class-action lawsuits on oil consumption due to how extraordinarily hot that engine runs. Cooling is your number priority on that motor.

It's possible that the tune didn't play nice with your car twice in a row due to outliers that others didn't have. I've done a lot of repairs on my cars due to tunes. Remember, it's a pay-to-play situation, and we all know the risk. If this were an MPPK or Dinan tune, I would be shocked. It has nothing to do with this tuner or that tuner, be it good or bad. It has to do with they don't warranty your motor, so the pay play scenarios get tricky really fast. That's how I became a modest-modder.

Again, my condolences.

[Bitchn5ive]

Originally Posted by Bmwdoubles_

Sorry to hear about all this, buddy. I just totaled my 5, but that's another story that I'm about to post here soon.

The N63TU or non TU is a motor riddled with class-action lawsuits on oil consumption due to how extraordinarily hot that engine runs. Cooling is your number priority on that motor.

It's possible that the tune didn't play nice with your car twice in a row due to outliers that others didn't have. I've done a lot of repairs on my cars due to tunes. Remember, it's a pay-to-play situation, and we all know the risk. If this were an MPPK or Dinan tune, I would be shocked. It has nothing to do with this tuner or that tuner, be it good or bad. It has to do with they don't warranty your motor, so the pay play scenarios get tricky really fast. That's how I became a modest-modder.

Again, my condolences.

Yep, sux to see two low mileage n63tu motors go to waste. Sad days.

Sorry to hear about your M5... tough loss there for sure. Another sad day I suppose.

[Bitchn5ive]

Does anyone else see any concern with this log at about 31 seconds? Fuel cut, ignition issue, knock, etc.

https://datazap.me/u/bitchn5ive/log-...log=0&data=3-6

Originally Posted by Bitchn5ive

Thank you.

Let's see...

https://datazap.me/u/bitchn5ive/log-...log=0&data=3-6

Not sure how it will be viewed but looking over the sheet, not the graph, the issue happened between rows 504 and 520.

I realize this is not the proper way to log but I have to apply the throttle in a specific manner to intentionally replicate the event and catch it in a log. It happened on the last WOT of this log.