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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 Quality Suffers Grossly at BMW |
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05-30-2014, 11:51 AM | #1 |
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Quality Suffers Grossly at BMW
Granted they make the best engines and have the best tech and are first with driving experience.
But aren't all these niche models are devaluing the brand, and diluting their customers, allowing more sales on the one hand but less desirability on the other. Then there is the quality of the interiors and comfort. The 1 2 3 4 X1 X3 GT3 GT4 and all touring cars all suffer from larger levels of wind, road, engine, and cabin noise than ever before. In a recent article in the daily mail, Chris Evans from BBC Radio 2 said "close your eyes in a 4 series, and you could be in a 10 grand van" ! Perhaps the customers today don't care, have no past reference point, or are just daft, but forgive me but for a 435Xdrive at £44,000 with no spec, I expect a little ambiance and comfort along with the .3 second 0-60 time. After all I experienced it in the M3 of old. Now, not only does everyone over the age of 12 drive a BMW, but the profile of customer is getting lower and as a result so is the expectation. Then, there is the recycling of parts, chassis frames, knobs and interiors. How can it be fair that product A looks exactly the same as product B and really it not be a joke. The four series and the 3 series are frankly more noisy and less refined than a 1971 Vauxhall Viva. Why has nobody dared to agree? I am befuddled that despite all the gloriously positive reviews on You Tube and on the internet, not one of these silly journalists dared to mention road noise, or cheap interior.. Are they blind... or being paid to just say nice things. Yes, the driving is sublime in every single car. But, is it so sublime that it out rates other cars? Not especially. And surely, isn't sublime driving supposed to include partly that you don't have to wear noise cancelling safety headphones. Both Mercedes and Audi, um and Ford, in fact, most manufacturers seem to be making cars that feel better inside. Their only downsides include not having connected drive or being rear wheel drive in some cases. Are we now seeing a brand change that could revolutionize the way we perceive BMW in comparison to other cars. There was never a case in the past that a BMW would creak, rattle, or go wrong. It was a BMW. Now, I wonder how many are chasing a brand value that is resting on years of heritage whilst someone high up is laughing making the cars out of bits from the bin. "Oh of course, we have to be green" they say as they justify their trim elasticity but surely aren't all manufacturers toiled with the same recycling conundrum? Porsche are no better either, they seem to be using a Sat Nav from Maplins and their new Boxster has more noise than a Lotus Elan. That said, the interior quality is class leading, when you're not moving. Mercedes interiors are class leading and you can fall asleep driving along a motorway...but go over a bump or turn a corner and you'll still be moving a week later. Ford's seem to be quite solid to be fair to them and there isn't really much road noise or rattle, but all their cars smell of sick, so that's them out. In fairness without run flats I think BMW cars would feel, as they are supposed to, taught, sporty, and comfortable, but there is no way they will drop those as that might hint they have got something wrong. Perhaps this and the lack of sound proofing is the problem, in the efforts to create safety, everything else goes out the window! Mind you, I can see where they are coming from. You cant drive 20 yards these days without getting a dangerous puncture. For me the whole thing is tragic and upsetting. Now on my 14th BMW, I seem to be experiencing less admiring glances, and a lot less refinement. It feels rather like I am stuck in a marriage to someone who, as each year passes, becomes less attractive, yet still costs the same. As a final note, No Manufacturer has such a no nonsense no quibble fix it policy such as BMW, whilst there are diminishing levels of customer service due to looser franchise rules, on the whole BMW still make you a proud owner. That said, they might make more money, by making something that makes me visit them less often. |
05-30-2014, 03:16 PM | #2 |
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I noticed a trend with BMW in recent years. Quality of interior pieces doesn't really come into play until you hit the 5 Series or higher. I was really disappointed recently when I had a 3 Series for a loaner. Cheap plastic and overall feel did make me feel I was driving a $20K Ford. Even my service advisor agreed. Thought in the back of my mind that if I ever had to go below a 5 Series I would pass on BMW or Audi and go back to a higher priced American car. Price on the higher optioned models would still come in lower than a 3 or 4 Series BMW and give me a more quality feel.
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05-30-2014, 03:36 PM | #3 | |
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You make some fair points in your post. I'm in an F10 and I have absolutely no complaint about interior material. In my view, most of what you are observing, the erosion of exclusivity in this brand, is about cheap money and the explosion of leasing in the last ten years. These cars are easier for more people to afford than they were when we were kids. I remember when the rich dude in my neighborhood got a brand-new E30 M3 for high school graduation. It might as well have been a spaceship. More models are not diluting the brand. I'm not even really clear what people mean by that, but if you go back to 1999 (when BMW introduced the X5) and call that the beginning of the "dilution", note that BMW's market share, volume, and profitability are all profoundly higher now than then. And, I always point out because this is not trivial - BMW is still independent after all that time. At the $50,000 price point, for example, BMW offers several well-built, high performance models, each appealing to a slightly different part of their target market. That is a good thing. I don't see anything there I might call dilution, based on my perception of the word's meaning in a business context. They found a way to put a BMW in the garage of more people who might want one. One area where they came close was the 318ti. That car was underpowered, underengineered, and existed only to allow BMW to offer a car at a low price point. If they had let that go on, it may have begun to affect the larger population's perception of what kind of cars BMW builds. They may be at risk of doing that again with this front wheel drive 2 series thing, which to my eyes looks nothing like a BMW is or should be. But we will see...
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05-30-2014, 06:33 PM | #4 |
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I've owned two E46s and an E90. I've spent a lot of time comparing the current crop of BMWs and I disagree with the OP on virtually every point.
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05-30-2014, 06:57 PM | #5 |
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Well, I think the erosion of exclusivity is a much better phrase.
When I say Dilute, I refer to business or marketing in a way. In the old days I was a club promoter. Opening additional nights at first meant that the same people would visit the venue across more nights, amounting to the same revenue and less revenue on each night. In reference to this discussion I suppose I mean that erosion of exclusivity IS dilution. IE that the perception of the brand has been weakened by the introduction of more of these 318TI models. Oddly enough however aside from their small engines. I thought they were and still are rather excellent. I bought my mate one for £1300 last year, its quiet full of character and feels in some way special. Be that a romantic attachment to the past or the feel of the materials. Whilst the e46 and e90s have been surpassed in engineering the interiors still have a greater sense of opulence and solidity. I sat in a taxi the other night E90 with 234000 miles on it. I pressed every panel and it was still rock solid. In the case of my F10 and my Neighbours - both of ours have been in for creaky seats and trim. This was not an issue ever on any of my past BMWs. Similarly although there is better trim in a 6 series, there is an enormous thread here about a world wide seat creak and movement issue. That said I agree the 5 is the starting point now perhaps alongside X3 for an interior sense of stability. I have had like the other posters, salesmen, service techs and senior techs all agree with reluctance that "they just dont build them like they used to" Chris Evans who wrote the overtly harsh remarks in the Daily Mail has a garage of million pound cars and he reviews all and sundry. For him to say that it felt like a van, was unfair but amusingly relatable. Driving the 1 3 and 4 in particular removes some of the lustre that glancing at the cars first delivers, there is a sense of emptiness. Case in point, I went to Munich where you hire all the cars for the hour and even the garage attendant who works there said Hmm the 3 feels and is a bit cheap. Yes, I am in full agreement that in a way this is part of live moving on. And I have no doubt that if they were that desirable Jaguar would make zillions of cars. I also support that BMW's aim is to ensure every personality owns one. But long term, what does that do to a brands value. If everyone can afford a Rolex yet only the rich can buy a good one, what does that say about Rolex. If it were my business, sure, I would be very happy right now, but equally if someone raised this question and said, what happens to the value of your product if it becomes too accessible, I would be mindful of that too. I would own them all. This is a rant but not a vilification. It may well be that mine and my neighbor's little experiences are one offs, but say what you like, if I buy a product that costs £47,000 a rattle or squeak is not acceptable. I am currently in a brand new 3GT. They cost around £37000 for a 2.0 petrol. It has no navigation or fancy things, its just an automatic. Whilst I absolutely love 90% of the car a. I see no point in it. b. The seats dont feel £37000 in leather c. The best thing about it is that new 3 prong steering wheel which is art. One compliment I do have for their business model, is how well they know their customers. Designing a steering wheel that makes you want to buy a completely new car is nothing short of genius. Let alone this new Multi Control Display digital read out for 2014. I am getting far too old. |
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05-30-2014, 09:14 PM | #7 |
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I can both agree and disagree with this post.
On one hand, I agree that there's brand dilution like never before. Look, BMW's plan is to expand via broader offerings. They need more offerings to gain more market share, and more market share means more revenue. At a certain point, I think they realized that they're never going to get greater than X% of the population who could afford and was in the market for a 5 or 7 to buy it over an A6, E-class, A8, or S-class. So, again, you expand by offering more products - down-market OR up-market. In this case, we're seeing a lot of down-market offerings being introduced. We're also seeing a vast array of variants on these products that are trying to hit niches in the market. It's a bit annoying to me, but I also understand their tactic from a business perspective. Is the brand less exclusive as a result? Absolutely. But as another poster pointed out, the explosion of cheap funding options (both low interest rates and leasing programs) also makes previously more exclusive cars more accessible. Are the upper-end models (5, 6, and 7) still pretty difficult for your average Joe to afford? Yes. Upper-end 5's are in the 70's - 90's, and 6's and 7's are easily 100k+ cars these days. So, there's still plenty of exclusivity to those models. Put simply, BMW is look for larger market share, and unless the world pumps out more wealthy people overnight, going down-market is the easiest way to gain that market share. Also, consider that the world is also undergoing a green revolution. Here in the US, federal regulations are continuing to put restrictions on car manufacturers' line-up - the average MPG must be higher each passing year. So, how do you continue to produce big-block V8's and V12's for your super luxury land-yachts and average higher MPGs across your line-up? You mix in models with very high MPGs in the down-market. It also doesn't hurt that people in those markets would gladly flock to a higher MPG BMW. On the other hand, I'd have to disagree with SOME (not all) of the comments regarding degrading quality. The F10 is a complete dream, in my experience, next to the e90 I came from. Yes, the e90 was relatively solid, but the F10 (living with both) is so far superior that no comparison can really be made. BMW's of past didn't creak? They did. I made my dealer take apart the complete back decklid of my e46 and pack it with foam to stop terrible creaking. Several e46 M3 owners referred to their cars as "stage coaches" due to the sounds they made after several years of hard driving. I do, however, think that the interior of the new 3 and 4 looks awfully cheap. The dash seems like a lower-end Japanese car, and it looks like they skimped terribly on the center stack. Economics? Maybe. These are also their highest volume sellers with probably less discerning customers to be fair. In any case, time will tell whether the dilution was a good or bad move for BMW. It doesn't appear to be hurting their up-market sales at the moment, and clearly their down-market is BOOMING. If they start to cheapen the 5, 6, or 7 as a result, I would expect things to change. But I don't see that happening anytime soon given the bitter competition from the likes of their German brethren.
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05-31-2014, 10:07 PM | #8 |
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05-31-2014, 11:37 PM | #9 |
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I completely agree with the OP. My 8 month old F11 has been in for replacement rusty callipers. Rust!!! when it had only driven 3,000 miles, what is all that about?. Yesterday i noticed that there is a large section of paint peeling off the front bumper. Paint peeling off? After 8,000 miles? What the hell?
I can, without doubt, feel a decline in quality. In 1996 I had a brand new 318is Coupe, ran it for 3 years, then, after a few years in a SAAB, (terrible), in 2001 i bought brand new 330CI Coupe (amazing car), then after that had 3 different E46 M3's both manual and SMG, AMAZING cars. Then in 2007, got a brand-new 5 Series Touring, 530 M Sport, great car and amazing engine. Fast forward to 2011; I had to 'down grade' my whole life after a very tough commercial reaction to the economic downturn; I bought a 2 1/2 year old, E90 318d M Sport, great spec and the previous owner had spent £££ making it look amazing. This ended up being a fabulous car. I drove it from 28,000 miles to 120,000 miles in 3 years. Then in February this year bought a 6 month old, 2,000 mile, F11 LCI 520d M Sport with an amazing spec. Although, on the whole I do love this car, the quality overall has, with doubt, dropped over the years. My first BMW way back in 1996 was a more special 'thing', both in reality and in the perception of other people's minds. I used to get admiring glances and comments all of the time. I do get some of that now with the F11 to be fair. But something has changed. Maybe it's time for me to have a change too? Biggest problem is change to what? Very good topic this. I'm interested to hear how many 'old-timers' like me (43 now) feel this way. Some of the "young ones", I feel, might disagree. |
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06-01-2014, 12:27 AM | #10 |
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I remember when I purchased my pre-owned 01 330Ci. I used to get asked all the time by complete strangers: "How much did you pay for it?" I often replied jokingly "an arm and a leg". That's the kind of reaction one used to get driving a BMW. Not anymore. Now everyone drives a BMW. Is BMW making more money but covering all of the niche markets it possibly can. Absolutely. We all read about record-breaking sales month after month, even in this recovering economy. But trust me, this brand does not hold the same prestige it did a decade ago.
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06-01-2014, 09:39 AM | #11 | |
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06-01-2014, 10:02 AM | #12 | |
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I _might_ agree that there are more low-end choices in BMW's lineup than there have been in the past, and that those may "dilute" the brand, provided that we define the "brand" as "cars that are too expensive for most people to own." Nobody is saying that the 228 is anything other than a knockout driver, so there's no "dilution" of the experience. But the 435GC does not dilute the BMW brand, it strengthens it. There may previously have been someone who wanted a midsize sporty luxury car, had $62K to spend, thought the F30 was too frumpy, and thought the F10 was too big or just out of reach, and who would have gone to another brand. Now there is a BMW for that person. As for interior quality - a few months ago I put together these pictures comparing interiors of 3 series and 5 series side by side, throughout the generations. When I look at this, I do believe that the E39 and F10 5 series are both high-water marks for interior fit and finish. But, generally, I don't see a degradation in material and design, even just in the 3 series. I think, frankly, there is a bit of nostalgia in that assertion. BMW's decision to open up the space below the HVAC cluster in the F30, to make room for the cupholders, was a poor design choice, as it cheapens the look and disrupts the flow of the cockpit. Bit I don't see materials there that are inferior to the E90, let alone the E36, which let's all agree was a horrible interior. Someone earlier in this thread suggested that they would move to a Ford to escape the rattles they hear in their BMW. I have a Ford Explorer. That is delusional talk.
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06-01-2014, 10:06 AM | #13 |
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My all time fav BMW belonged to a friend of mine. It was back in 1992. Brand new 325i 5 speed. That's when they introduced the clear lens over the headlights. It was black over black and man that car was fast and a looker. That's when I realized I liked the brand.
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06-01-2014, 11:06 AM | #14 |
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I'm sorry but I don't agree on most of what you're saying.
I like my BMW, I like its interiour, and I don't think it makes too much noice. I've owned a smart roadster a couple years back, that was noisy! But, to each their own!
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06-01-2014, 11:19 AM | #15 | |
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I had an E12 5-series for over 5-years, so my use of BMW pre-dates all the controversy of modern times. I'm amazed at some of the comments and opinions, doesn't match my experience at all. I'm currently in an F11 535i wagon, and it is the best BMW I've owned. I had an E39 540i wagon for over 4-years and fully believe, like many others, that the E39 was likely the pinnacle of BMW build quality, etc. Even so, still rate the F11 as up there with the E39, even though latest engineering takes a slightly different form. I do sense there is a difference between perceived quality and actual quality. Not so easy to quantify what is better, or worse. The E39 was a masterpiece of design, IMO, well executed to blend with our senses. For me the F11 does the same thing, doesn't leave me wanting for driver satisfaction. Reliability, that is another issue, the E39 doesn't rate too high on my scale, it could have been much better. Whether the F11 is better or worse, only time will tell. Only a few years use will answer that question. I applaud BMW for offering a wider range of models, emphasis on smaller engines, balancing the manufacturers ECO targets and allowing the higher end cars to continue. What is clear different models have different target markets, (as I found running an E91 330d for over 6-years), no longer does BMW follow the old strategy of "same sausage, different skin". HighlandPete |
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06-01-2014, 11:37 AM | #16 | |
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But I will add, virtually all BMW models are very specification sensitive, and that can skew our opinion. But this is not a new thing, BMW has always been like that. Came to appreciate that myself when we ran 3 different E30 3-series models in parallel, back in the 1980s. Our 'feelings' about a car can easily change from praise to criticism, we humans are that fickle. HighlandPete |
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06-01-2014, 04:25 PM | #17 |
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Well, I'm on my first BMW and I have to say the f10 has a brilliant standard of fit and finish. It makes me very happy that anything that looks like metal in the car, is in fact metal and the leather is of good quality.
However, my brand new f10 had a drivetrain failure within the first 500 miles and BMW themselves have no idea what is wrong with it. After that I was given a Z4 courtesy car and in the week I had it, the squeaking and groaning and thumping coming from everywhere in the cabin made my commute an absolute nightmare. The left tweeter was broken and kept making a crackly noise so bad that I would rather listen to all the "ambient noise" in the cabin. On the last day I had it, the car came up with a pedestrian impact system warning which was lovely too. Next courtesy car I had was a 320i m sport. Drove brilliantly but the interior is a bit of an insult. Its lifted straight out of the one series and the plastics are worse than those on my previous Accord (TSX). Also the passenger driver switch had a creek or electrical crackle as the switch would get extremely hot every time it was operated. I still like BMW though :/ |
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06-01-2014, 09:37 PM | #18 | |
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For some people, "quality" of the interior may sometimes equate to design changes and not necessarily materials or engineering. I think you're right in pointing out that the F30's "open space" in the center stack is more a design issue that cheapens the look versus an actual engineering/materials issue. I can say - I hated the e90 interior. I used to look admirably at my e46 interior and never looked at the e90 the same way... and not because of the materials. The e90 interior had quality materials that were well screwed-together. But the design was just terrible and frumpy... bubbly, fat, and lost all of its sporty driver-orientation. I'd probably say that F30 is a somewhat improvement in some areas... but I like the e46 better still. As for the F10, I really can't say anything in the class matches it. I think BMW did a knock-up job with this, and the sales have proven I'm not alone. The design is sporty and what it should be... while the luxury and material qualities just seem superb.
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06-01-2014, 10:26 PM | #19 |
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Knowing that BMW isn't in the business to please you, they're in the business to make money. The more models there're, the more demographics they will attract. Also, the brand is getting more accessible, that's because BMW hopes the 3 and 4 series buyers of today will become their 7 series customers tomorrow.
After all, they don't just want to be the ultimate driving machine, they also want to be the ultimate money making machine. With that being said, I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed with the interior build quality of my F10. I can hear quite a few creaking noise and I think they shouldn't appear in a car that cost over $60k. In comparison, my E90 never had any of that noise. But I still love my car, sometimes there're intangible things beyond quality and value, and there's no other cars like BMW's... Last edited by BigK; 06-01-2014 at 10:45 PM.. |
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06-02-2014, 12:04 AM | #20 |
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I've had quite a few BMW's since I got my first 13 years ago.
E30, E36, 2xE46, E31 and now F11. I would say the F11 is by far the best of them. The run flat tires does make more road noise, I guess replacing them would improve on both road noise and comfort. The industry is struggling to balance safety/soundproofing and weight, so I guess some soundproofing has had to go to keep the weight down. That said, my F11 is more quiet than any of my previous BMW. My neighbor has a Ford S-Max, cool car, terrible ride comfort, nice looking seats and decent to sit in, nothing really exciting. I was seriously looking at an AMG Merc before I got the F11. Nice cars, comfort is great, interior design is terrible, they look really simple and cheap, and to me ugly. So I ended up with another BMW, and I find my comfort seats absolutely superb, the adaptive suspension is fantastic, the interior layout is excellent and well designed. So far I have not had any creeks or noises in my 2012 F11. I feel a huge leap forward on everything compared to my 04 M3 I just sold, even the wind noise from the mirrors is lower than on my old M3. So with regards to the OP. I don't see a decrease in quality, and some things like run flat tires can be changed in half an hour. |
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06-02-2014, 10:13 AM | #21 | |
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I don't think the design of the F3X interior is great, although probably a little better than the E90. Like you, my eyes saw the E46 as the best appointed. Since the F30 design period, the rest of the industry seems to have stepped up interior design dramatically. Here's hoping BMW will make that a priority for the next generation.
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06-02-2014, 09:29 PM | #22 | |
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But as I said, I can't really say the e90 wasn't quality or screwed-together well... it was. In fact, it was an improvement in that area over the e46, which I certainly had issues with creaks and cracks... never had them with the e90. So far the F10 feels solid, and I'm hoping that'll last for multiple years. But I also know it's a function of how the car is driving. My e46 saw multiple trips (for years) into NYC... not so for the e90. Could that have something to do with it? Of course.
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