[bm323]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Hi, sorry i thought u had normal susp...
yeah not much u need to change with Adaptive.. with the springs the concern is matching spring rate with the electronic dampers right?
In sport+ is the car still not tight enough for your preferences? overall, or anything specific wrt 1.springs 2.damper 3.antiroll ?
Can u feel the damper and antiroll vary dynamically over different road conditions/speeds/turns while on the same (passive) setting?
very curious about the dynamic abilities of Adaptive drive..

I like the adaptive drive for its anti-roll as it works well. Unfortunately, I find the difference between normal and sport not enough. I expected sport to be tighter as BMW info was that sport mode is supposed to make the chassis tighter than M sport suspension, but this info is questionable now. There is not any difference in tightness between sport and sport+ imo, only that the stability control is limited in the latter. But all this is with reference to very smooth roads, as there have been a few forummers reporting that sport is tight enough which imo such impression being affected by the roads. I'm hoping that the change of springs will do the trick, affecting the damping and the tightness. My recollection (based on testing the standard F10 months back) is that the standard suspension is superior to normal mode in adaptive drive (minus the anti-roll, which doesn't quite make sense as adaptive drive has the variable damping which is supposed to work better). I told my SE this a few days ago, and he was surprised. I'm not sure whether the sole agent here has any test car with adaptive drive, for him to test.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by bm323

I like the adaptive drive for its anti-roll as it works well. Unfortunately, I find the difference between normal and sport not enough. I expected sport to be tighter as BMW info was that sport mode is supposed to make the chassis tighter than M sport suspension, but this info is questionable now. There is not any difference in tightness between sport and sport+ imo, only that the stability control is limited in the latter. But all this is with reference to very smooth roads, as there have been a few forummers reporting that sport is tight enough which imo such impression being affected by the roads. I'm hoping that the change of springs will do the trick, affecting the damping and the tightness. My recollection (based on testing the standard F10 months back) is that the standard suspension is superior to normal mode in adaptive drive (minus the anti-roll, which doesn't quite make sense as adaptive drive has the variable damping which is supposed to work better). I told my SE this a few days ago, and he was surprised. I'm not sure whether the sole agent here has any test car with adaptive drive, for him to test.

Isn't the smooth road issue part of the 'feeling' we have softer suspension settings. Are we not back to the fact that passive and active suspensions have different characteristics.

IMO, the passive M-sport suspension will never feel the same as Adaptive Drive in 'sport' even if the parameters are similar. The fact that the roll bars are active, allows softer and smoother reactions unless you are pushing it harder and roll control is needed. Even on the 'normal' setting, the stability and roll control is far superior to the normal passive suspenion. It is the feeling we are not used to, soft until its necessary to stiffen the ride, then it all comes together. We just aren't having to have the typical harsher 'sport' ride when there is no demand on the suspension.

Try throwing the passive (normal) suspension car through the twisties, then the Adaptive Drive car set at normal through the same roads. I know which one I prefer, the AD car, as it is so much tighter and the roll is virtually nil.

From my viewpoint it's hard to compare, they shouldn't feel the same. As an engineer split roll bars is the best bit of the Adaptive Drive package, we get something a fixed rolll bar suspension just can't give, greater refinement, but with more roll control when necessary.

HighlandPete

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by bm323

I like the adaptive drive for its anti-roll as it works well. Unfortunately, I find the difference between normal and sport not enough. I expected sport to be tighter as BMW info was that sport mode is supposed to make the chassis tighter than M sport suspension, but this info is questionable now. There is not any difference in tightness between sport and sport+ imo, only that the stability control is limited in the latter. But all this is with reference to very smooth roads, as there have been a few forummers reporting that sport is tight enough which imo such impression being affected by the roads. I'm hoping that the change of springs will do the trick, affecting the damping and the tightness. My recollection (based on testing the standard F10 months back) is that the standard suspension is superior to normal mode in adaptive drive (minus the anti-roll, which doesn't quite make sense as adaptive drive has the variable damping which is supposed to work better). I told my SE this a few days ago, and he was surprised. I'm not sure whether the sole agent here has any test car with adaptive drive, for him to test.

i think Adaptive drive is amazing technology (although ive never driven it) - particularily the way the antiroll bars work -at high speed they need to be tight otherwise you'll float, and at low speed having no antiroll gives an amazing ride. This is something u can't replicate with a static aftermarket antiroll bar.
The electronic dampers it appears is not as straight forward, and perhaps some of the lack of full satisfaction lies there.
Does anyone know how the electronic valve system works? Is it mechanical or magnetic? This would affect whether the damper can function in a 'dynamic' sense, adjusting to the road conditions in real time.
You have expressed lack of satisfaction with the passive settings of adaptive - surely this can be easily fixed by bmw in the software, hopefully there will be a retro patch later.
Changing the springs could improve the overall adaptive system, the springs being the only static component there is always a compromise there. However u have to watch out for the matching with the software settings of the antiroll and damper; the springs would be stiffer but the antiroll and damper program is still the same, it would be so much easier +better if bmw just improved the software :

anyway the car is still great we cant forget that

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Isn't the smooth road issue part of the 'feeling' we have softer suspension settings. Are we not back to the fact that passive and active suspensions have different characteristics.

IMO, the passive M-sport suspension will never feel the same as Adaptive Drive in 'sport' even if the parameters are similar. The fact that the roll bars are active, allows softer and smoother reactions unless you are pushing it harder and roll control is needed. Even on the 'normal' setting, the stability and roll control is far superior to the normal passive suspenion. It is the feeling we are not used to, soft until its necessary to stiffen the ride, then it all comes together. We just aren't having to have the typical harsher 'sport' ride when there is no demand on the suspension.

Try throwing the passive (normal) suspension car through the twisties, then the Adaptive Drive car set at normal through the same roads. I know which one I prefer, the AD car, as it is so much tighter and the roll is virtually nil.

From my viewpoint it's hard to compare, they shouldn't feel the same. As an engineer split roll bars is the best bit of the Adaptive Drive package, we get something a fixed rolll bar suspension just can't give, greater refinement, but with more roll control when necessary.

HighlandPete

Pete
I agree completely ..
Even though I dont have it, I would want to get the antiroll function if it were a separate option.
But ofcourse bmw probably knows this, so only dampers can be ordered separately

[N16E]

Well I've just driven 150 miles and can honestly say that at speeds of between 70 and 80 mph the steering on my car is horrid (and I have over 25yrs experience driving all manner of cars under my belt). To be perfectly clear, below 70 the steering is nicely weighted and progressive, but go above 70 it's twitchy, notchy, light then heavy, it feels like it's switched from analogue to digital steering. I still think it's an EPS issue because it seems so linked to speed.

[bm323]

Well, I don't understand why the F10 makes me feel the way I do. In a crude manner of expressing it, I find the F10 more connected and tighter in sport mode than normal mode, but I prefer it even more connected/tighter than sport mode. I know the anti-roll works well in normal or sport, so I'm rather certain it's not the anti-roll. I just like my chassis tighter and I mentioned that this is with reference to smooth roads. If the roads are rough, it may be that some people will find that sport mode is (slightly) too harsh. Thinking about it, for the roads I use, I prefer the F10 in sport mode even when the roads are slightly rough, but this may be because it's not as rough as some roads.

If it's just a software fix, all the better I'm awaiting more information when more F10s are tuned. A problem is most F10s are not sold here with adaptive drive, will need more feedback from forums

I may be recalling incorrectly as to how the standard suspension feels, just that my recollection is that its damping seemed better than AD's normal mode. (I'm not talking about anti-roll here; the F10 travelling straight or with slight turns at varying speeds).

But I have no problem with the steering itself or the F10 generally as I think it's a great car

It has been mentioned that the steering stiffens above 50 mph (not 70/80 mph), and I have no problem with the steering weight either.

ps SDRX says that the M-Sport suspension makes the F10 firmer than AD's sport mode http://f10.5post.com/forums/showpost...9&postcount=15

[pharding]

My F10 has Adaptive Drive and Interactive Steering. It drives 98% as good as my E60. It appears that the issues are with the base suspension and steering systems.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by pharding

My F10 has Adaptive Drive and Interactive Steering. It drives 98% as good as my E60. It appears that the issues are with the base suspension and steering systems.

Hi, would you say the 2% shortfall is due to the weight of the F10, steering or something else? I've not driven a E60, so I can't compare.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by bm323

Well, I don't understand why the F10 makes me feel the way I do. In a crude manner of expressing it, I find the F10 more connected and tighter in sport mode than normal mode, but I prefer it even more connected/tighter than sport mode. I know the anti-roll works well in normal or sport, so I'm rather certain it's not the anti-roll. I just like my chassis tighter and I mentioned that this is with reference to smooth roads. If the roads are rough, it may be that some people will find that sport mode is (slightly) too harsh. Thinking about it, for the roads I use, I prefer the F10 in sport mode even when the roads are slightly rough, but this may be because it's not as rough as some roads.

If it's just a software fix, all the better I'm awaiting more information when more F10s are tuned. A problem is most F10s are not sold here with adaptive drive, will need more feedback from forums

I may be recalling incorrectly as to how the standard suspension feels, just that my recollection is that its damping seemed better than AD's normal mode. (I'm not talking about anti-roll here; the F10 travelling straight or with slight turns at varying speeds).

But I have no problem with the steering itself or the F10 generally as I think it's a great car

It has been mentioned that the steering stiffens above 50 mph (not 70/80 mph), and I have no problem with the steering weight either.

The standard susp. would be 'tuned' for average conditions wrt dampers/springs/antirolls .. so if Adaptive falls short for some, there is hope that the 'fix' can be a software one -eg. dampers too soft in comfort etc.

That said, 90% of drivers should get Adaptive, as its one of the main features of the f10 (along with IAS), esp. if they are in low-tax areas

For me with a standard susp. 528i, I can take advantage of the ability to change all 3: springs/dampers/antiroll .. but I would, and am, driving it more like a X-large 3 series, this is probably not what bmw considers to be the 'average' application

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by bm323

Well, I don't understand why the F10 makes me feel the way I do. In a crude manner of expressing it, I find the F10 more connected and tighter in sport mode than normal mode, but I prefer it even more connected/tighter than sport mode. I know the anti-roll works well in normal or sport, so I'm rather certain it's not the anti-roll. I just like my chassis tighter and I mentioned that this is with reference to smooth roads. If the roads are rough, it may be that some people will find that sport mode is (slightly) too harsh. Thinking about it, for the roads I use, I prefer the F10 in sport mode even when the roads are slightly rough, but this may be because it's not as rough as some roads.

...

I may be recalling incorrectly as to how the standard suspension feels, just that my recollection is that its damping seemed better than AD's normal mode. (I'm not talking about anti-roll here; the F10 travelling straight or with slight turns at varying speeds).

I do believe your 'connected' feeling is due to being used to the fixed actions of both dampers and roll bars. Once we have variables, which are tuned to soften out road imperfections, we are bound to lose some of the direct connection. Some of it, I'm sure is what we are used to experiencing, an action gets a specific reaction, Adaptive Drive doesn't conform to our norm. I do believe these discussions are partly explaining why the feedback is so different, from test drives.

Here's a quote from Autocar's latest 520d test report.

Granted, the 5-series feels most at home on a motorway, but it is not devoid of reward, provided you’re happy to enjoy a sense of fluidity rather than any immediacy.

I understand that comment, I believe that's part of the issue, BMW have gone for fluidity, not all BMW driver's see that as a priority for good driving dynamics.

HighlandPete

[bm323]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I do believe your 'connected' feeling is due to being used to the fixed actions of both dampers and roll bars. Once we have variables, which are tuned to soften out road imperfections, we are bound to lose some of the direct connection. Some of it, I'm sure is what we are used to experiencing, an action gets a specific reaction, Adaptive Drive doesn't conform to our norm. I do believe these discussions are partly explaining why the feedback is so different, from test drives.

Here's a quote from Autocar's latest 520d test report.



I understand that comment, I believe that's part of the issue, BMW have gone for fluidity, not all BMW driver's see that as a priority for good driving dynamics.

HighlandPete

Ok, let me have more miles on my F10 and hopefully like this fluidity even more

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by N16E

Well I've just driven 150 miles and can honestly say that at speeds of between 70 and 80 mph the steering on my car is horrid (and I have over 25yrs experience driving all manner of cars under my belt). To be perfectly clear, below 70 the steering is nicely weighted and progressive, but go above 70 it's twitchy, notchy, light then heavy, it feels like it's switched from analogue to digital steering. I still think it's an EPS issue because it seems so linked to speed.

That does appear to be strange behaviour, tyre influence will normally show at different speeds, as it will be influenced by the road surface. You could have a different issue than some are reporting, we must not assume we are all talking the same/identical problem.

Have you got for example, the sport auto and DDC which allows steering to be set in i-Drive? In other words you can change the feel/weighting.

What model/wheel size have you got?

HighlandPete

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Here's a quote from Autocar's latest 520d test report.

I understand that comment, I believe that's part of the issue, BMW have gone for fluidity, not all BMW driver's see that as a priority for good driving dynamics.

This is precisely what I brought up in the "other thread." For someone like myself who has driven through BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine evolution" from a 2002tii to an E60 and just about everything in between, my immediate reaction was to this latest 'evolution' of a new 'fluidity.' (imho, I also equate the "Joy" campaign, whilst dropping the "Ultimate Driving Machine," indicative of this change.)

But for someone new to the marque, perhaps none of this matters. And of course I understand that. But for those of us who do not see this "as a priority for good driving dynamics," honestly do have concerns about the 'new fluid dynamic.' If the 5er is now more of a smaller 7er, then that's fine. But it's a bit of a surprise for those like myself coming from earlier versions. And as I mentioned in the 'other' thread, an option is to stick with the 3ers and/or the M division models. To be up front, the distance between the 5er (as an Ultimate Driving Machine) has now narrowed when comparing the competition (MB/AMG, Jaguar, etc..) For me, nothing could ever beat the BMW 5er's driving dynamic in the previous incarnations. But that may no longer be the case. I think we all know that part of the chassis change with the 5er was to not only be able to assemble the F10 alongside the F01, but to be more competitive in the luxury mid-size class.

My big question to Pete: I'm considering the 550i (but maybe wait until the M5 is here first to compare.) Do you think someone like me (coming from the dynamics of the earlier versions) can be truly satisfied aside from simply "getting used to it." I realize this is very subjective, but I think you know where I'm coming from. To put it bluntly, can the F10 be turned into an 'E60 style' chassis dynamic via no RFTs, and some suspension mods (or is the car's computer system too tied into everything now)?

Thanks for your input (and btw, your posts are helpful to me and informative, ie: adaptive drive and EPS.)

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

...My big question to Pete: I'm considering the 550i (but maybe wait until the M5 is here first to compare.) Do you think someone like me (coming from the dynamics of the earlier versions) can be truly satisfied aside from simply "getting used to it." I realize this is very subjective, but I think you know where I'm coming from. To put it bluntly, can the F10 be turned into an 'E60 style' chassis dynamic via no RFTs, and some suspension mods (or is the car's computer system too tied into everything now)?

That's a question I'm asking as well. I'm in the position I could have ordered a car months back, to get an early delivery, but I'm not sure of the whole picture.

I came from an E39 540i touring (wagon) on M-tech suspension and loved the dynamics of that car. I never got the same feeling from the early E60/1 M-sport cars, much too harsh and unrefined for the roads I drive. So moved to the 3-series which I thought was more sorted, and learned a lot about the limitations of tyres and suspension in the three.

The E60/1 LCI models seemed to get back to a better balance, IMO, was very tempted to have a 535d touring after a week with one, but decided to wait for the F10/11.

I personally think the current cars are better than the E39, just different. Get the spec' correct, (we do need the feedback) on which to be more selective. If I had to make a decision today, I'd be adding Adaptive Drive, sport auto and 'probably' 19" wheels, as the cars I've tested run better on 19". It's the wheel bit I'm still not sure of, if removing the run-flats then 18" are my first choice.

But the whole decision making is, as you say, a very subjective thing. Personally I have to cope with some interesting road surfaces, so I want a car which can give a bit more comfort and fluidity, (which the E39 gave us) rather than the tighter responses (early E60/1 cars) which can translate to a harsh and unpredictable drive.

HighlandPete

[mikestrete]

Further to my previous post:
I have concentrated really hard on the feel of my steering (530d, adaptive drive, anti-roll, etc) and cannot find anything to complain about. The slight sensation I referred to in my previous post now appears to be completely absent. As I said before, the feel of the steering on my new car is far superior to that of my previous e60. In my opinion, the new steering system is precise and accurate.

[N16E]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

That does appear to be strange behaviour, tyre influence will normally show at different speeds, as it will be influenced by the road surface. You could have a different issue than some are reporting, we must not assume we are all talking the same/identical problem.

Have you got for example, the sport auto and DDC which allows steering to be set in i-Drive? In other words you can change the feel/weighting.

What model/wheel size have you got?

HighlandPete

My car is a standard 520D SE on 18" wheels. I just driven 170 miles at speeds of between 70 & 80 and I'm afraid I just can't accept the inconsistent levels of feedback from the steering wheel. It's like using a poor Playstation steering wheel...in a real car!

[N16E]

Update. I finally managed to get to my local dealer, who had a master technician drive my car down the motorway, after a few miles he started to notice the steering feel I had described, when we returned to the dealer we jumped into another 520 and repeated the trip, immediately he pointed out this car felt much more direct, we turned around and I drove back, I too felt this car to be much better, and a million miles away from my car. The technician thought it may be the steering rack itself, anyway, my car is now booked in for all next week to sort it out (convenient because I'm travelling on business). I'll keep you all posted.

BTW..great service from Rybrook BMW Warwick.

N16E

[pharding]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

.... Get the spec' correct, (we do need the feedback) on which to be more selective. If I had to make a decision today, I'd be adding Adaptive Drive, sport auto and 'probably' 19" wheels, as the cars I've tested run better on 19". It's the wheel bit I'm still not sure of, if removing the run-flats then 18" are my first choice. ,,,

I highly recommend the Interactive Steering with AD.

[stickypaws]

Thanks Pete for your response. The consensus seems to be that the AD option is central here. And pharding seems to also agree. My personal drive experience with the F10 was w/o AD (see this thread: http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthre...88#post8090988)

As with any new paradigm, previous experiences will eventually fade and become replaced/accepted with something else. Meaning, "we'll eventually get used to it." There's not much choice in the matter.

[N16E]

Update - My car has been with the local dealer since Monday (now Saturday), a ZF engineer flew over from BMW Germany yesterday, and they have decide to send my steering rack back to Germany for investigation and order me a complete new rack.

They "think" it's a one off instance.

Great customer service experience from Rybrook Warwick (BMW even loaned me a brand new fully loaded F10 M - Sport until mine is fixed, whenever that is).

I'll keep you posted.
PS - I knew the steering wasn't right!!

[Postcab]

I'm a new 520d owner, and have just completed my first reasonable distance journey (200 miles combination of Mway and A road).

Really pleased I found this thread as the steering on my car between 70 - 80 mph is decidedly odd. Very similar to M16E's description of wooden/ sticky/ inconsistent. I couldn't relax at all and was constantly having to concentrate - correct - recorrect.

In 25 years of driving many different cars, I've never experienced anything like it before. Similar journey tomorrow, so I'll switch the box into sport and see if it makes any difference. My spec is 18 inch wheels, standard suspension and Continental tyres.

I will report back.

Rest of the car is an absolute joy.

[F11owner]

I'm a new F11 owner, and have the same strange steering feel, when driving between 70 and 80mph, have only had the car a couple of days, but will keep an eye on this issue. Below 70mph the steering feels absolutely fine, but between 70 and 80mph feels very strange. I have the sport auto box, so will try in sports mode to see if this resolves it. Mentioned it to my dealer today. Car is otherwise just great.