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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 F10 Technical Topics Wheels / Tires / Suspension / Brakes Why is the F10 5-series suspension so great? Explanation by lead tuner.
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      04-01-2010, 10:38 AM   #1
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Thumbs up Why is the F10 5-series suspension so great? Explanation by lead tuner.

Many of our 5POST members have been wondering what exactly makes the F10's suspension and handling so frequently praised. This interview by bimmertoday with Jos van As, lead of the F10 chassis and suspension tuning team, provides some great insight! (bmwblog wants credit for the translation, here you go: http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/01/28/20...st-jos-van-as/)


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BT: The new BMW 5 Series features again an active rear axle kinematics. It has been 10 years since a similar system was offered in the BMW 850CSi. Why the long wait?

JvS: In the early 90s, this subject was mainly interesting for added stability, but in the same time, electronic stability systems, like DSC, appeared and made mechanical systems, like the one we used in the 850CSi, unnecessary. But then the cars got bigger and heavier and we had to find a way to make them handle like before, despite the increased weight. In the 90s, we used an eletrohydraulic system for the rear axle, and now we can use an electromechanical system that can be combined with the variable steering on the front axle.

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BT: How does exactly the current system work?


JvS: The system brings additional customer benefits in two speed ranges. At low speed, such as in parking, turning or switchbacks in the mountains, you have a car that feels a lot smaller than it actually is. In these situations, the rear wheels are steered in the opposite direction than the front wheels and we get additional agility from this. At higher speeds, the customer benefits from increased stability because now the rear wheels are steered in the same direction as the front wheels . Therefore, we can make the car drive as if it had a larger wheelbase. We launched the active steering in the E60 model, but back in those days, we only had it for the front wheels. Now we can use it for the rear wheels as well. This is the reason why you can not buy the system for the front wheels only anymore because we see this as one big package.

BT: Are there any differences from the system found in the new 7 Series?


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JvS: Yes, in the 7 Series case, we are using an hydraulic steering system, but in the new 5 Series we are using an electromechanical system. There are no differences at the rear axle though.

BT: Why are you using different systems at the front axle?


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JvS: We decided to do so because we, as the drivetrain team, wanted to contribute to the CO2-emission-reduction as well. The electric system we are using in the new 5 Series brings a benefit of about 4 gram CO2-emissions less compared to an hydraulic system.

BT: Adaptive suspensions seem to be a lot better than in the past and in the new 5 Series you can almost talk about two different cars depending on the setting of the suspension.

JvS: Yes, this is mainly caused by the further development of the dampers in the last few years. The difference between the two opposite settings has been enlarged very much and therefore, we can give you a bigger difference between the settings as well. In the past, we also had to chose between specific settings that were indicated by the customer, but we could not do anything in-between. Now we can offer our customers the perfect setting for the current road conditions and the driving scenarios, because the systems adapts itself to the situation it is confronted with.

BT: Are there any disadvantages regarding security when driving in the soft settings, e.g. due to more body-roll and less ability to corner? For example, we could imagine a situation when the car comes to a corner and it cannot drive through with the comfort setting, and the DSC-sensors notice this, does this affect the settings of the dampers?

JvS: It actually works the other way around. When you are entering a corner, the dampers are immediately adjusted and become stiffer so that you have perfect handling, no matter which setting you are using.

BT: So when we’re in comfort mode, we can benefit from more comfort on straight roads, but if I have to corner…

JvS: …or if you have to evade some obstacles, the system automatically switches to a stiffer setting and you can corner with the maximum capability of the car. When the situation has calmed down, the previous setting is activated again. The focus is on optimal customer benefit: as stiff as necessary, but as comfortable as possible.

BT: We’re sure that lots of surveys were made among the E60 owners. Where they asking for more comfort or more sportiness?

JvS: It was rather more comfort. In the previous model, we already offered a sport suspension in combination with the active roll stabilization which is a combination that proved to be very popular in the U.S. and other markets. So we had some very sporty offerings and now we are combining this sportiness with more comfort.

BT: Many people see run-flat tires as one of the biggest faults in riding comfort. What do you think about this?

JvS: There has been a lot of development in the past and without a doubt the first run-flat tires had some issues with comfort levels. The Run-Flat tires offered today are way better and we even made some blind tests with some of our developers and with normal customers to see if they can tell the difference between run-flat and regular tires. And, they usually can’t.

So the normal customer will hardly notice any difference with today’s tires.

BT: So will run-flat tires present an interest to BMW M for their future cars?

JvS: Thats a bit of a philosophical question and it also depends on how you are positioning a car. There are some things that are very important for the M GmbH, but not for every BMW. For example, they are using other tire sizes and they want as few unsprung weight as possible, so run-flats are not very attractive for their purposes.

BT: So, for the normal 5 Series customer it makes no difference.

JvS: No, except from the safety benefits of course. We also know from our 1 and 3 Series cars, where the run-flat tires are optional on some models, that our customers really want them, so the market acceptance is not a question at all. There are even markets like the U.S. and China where you simply have to offer run-flat tires because these customers want a high level of safety and a very high level of comfort. The chinese customer doesn’t leave his car when he has a flat tire, so in such markets run-flat tires are essential.

BT: We assume xDrive 5 Series models will be offered again. How many of your customers decided to buy xDrive cars in the previous generation of the 5 Series?

JvS: It depends on the market. There are some markets like the U.S., Switzerland, Austria or Canada, where all-wheel-drive is very important and about 50% of our cars are equipped with xDrive. In other markets, it is less important.


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      04-01-2010, 12:14 PM   #2
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Great article.

I guess that tells the story...
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      04-01-2010, 03:08 PM   #3
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This is an article everyone should read. It is always enjoyable to read words written by someone who knows.
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      04-01-2010, 05:49 PM   #4
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Fascinating information, always interesting to read!
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      04-01-2010, 06:00 PM   #5
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Is this only for optional Dymamic suspension in US?

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      04-01-2010, 06:12 PM   #6
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Great article but from my own experience which has been repeated numerous times by motoring journalists is that the stock suspension is anything close to exceptional and it's only when you tick the option box for the adaptive suspension does the new 5er truly shine.
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      04-01-2010, 08:05 PM   #7
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at the more extensive use of aluminum!
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      04-01-2010, 08:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Great article but from my own experience which has been repeated numerous times by motoring journalists is that the stock suspension is anything close to exceptional and it's only when you tick the option box for the adaptive suspension does the new 5er truly shine.
You always have to pay to play...at least in the beginning.
I'm sure that eventually, there will be some sort of version of adaptive suspension standard.
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      04-02-2010, 05:09 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
That's some complicated stuff and it shows again why BMW is a better manufacturer than the competition.
Their adaptive suspension is exceptionally good, but I don't agree that this setup is any better than other versions offered else where, it's just BMW's take on solving this problem of getting decent ride quality with decent chassis control.

What this shows is they are one of the best in a field among a select few.
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      04-02-2010, 10:15 AM   #10
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For the very first time, I think I may want a 5-series as my next car
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      04-03-2010, 04:24 AM   #11
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To be truly honest, I find this artcle very disappointing ! It shows - imo - that the car became again heavier AND that the core suspension / chassis isn't up for the comfy/sporty tasks AND that you really need to have all the extra boxes checked to benefit from the technologies presented in this article.

In the Netherlands an estimate of 90%+ will not come with the Dynamic Driving Control option (the switch button with Normal, Sport (and) Comfort), for the simple reason that this system can only be ordered for the 535i, 550i or the 530d. The most likely 5-series will be the 520d, 525d and the 523i or the 528i.

Therefore, all the apprreciates and likewise, in various test, say nothing about the new core suspension and chassis (without the extra's). I'm keeping my fingers crossed as wether or not this core suspension will be adequate in combination with the 18-inch wheels (RFT's). You can always switch to nRFT. My current E61 changed from a bounce and yigger car into a normal old-fashioned BMW after replacing the RFT's with nRFT Michelin's.

Conclusion: I'm very unpleased with this article.


Can anybody tell how the car behaves without all the mubo-jumbo adds on the chassis? It is stricking that BMW delivered only full optioned chassis cars for the early test.
PS I'm aware of the UK based test (autocar), but I find this test a bit biased.
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      04-05-2010, 12:01 AM   #12
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Woohoo

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      04-06-2010, 07:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erasmus View Post
In the Netherlands an estimate of 90%+ will not come with the Adaptive Drive systems, extra suspension ads etc, for the simple reason that these systems can only be ordered for the 535i, 550i or the 530d. The most likely 5-series will be the 520d, 525d and the 523i or the 528i.
As I understand it, most of this is available as an option on all models (Driving Dynamic Control incl. Variable Damping Control). What is then missing is the active roll stabilisation, and I assume that I have less use of that in a 520d.
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      04-07-2010, 02:18 AM   #14
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Dreadful

This says, the only way to get a good ride/handling combination is with three optional extras which add cost, weight, complexity and lack of feel. It also implies the basic cars are not good to drive as supported by Autocar. One up to the Jag XF seems to be the consensus here? Sad day for BMW!

Autocar post ... http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368952

I will wait for the M-Sport and hope this is more driver orientated without the chassis extras, however looking at the 7 M-Sport this is not the case! I can also "smell" turbo versions of the 528/523 on the way, probably called 525 and 530!

I believe there is good car under the F10 optional-chassis complexity when tuned correctly. Best to wait and not get dragged into BMW's silly rushed launch and marketing nonsense. If all else fails, I will wait to see what F30 is like or buy an XF.
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      04-07-2010, 02:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMOR View Post
As I understand it, most of this is available as an option on all models (Driving Dynamic Control incl. Variable Damping Control). What is then missing is the active roll stabilisation, and I assume that I have less use of that in a 520d.
LMOR, it is possible to order the Variable Damping Control for the models mentioned, but not the Dynamic Driving Control, i.e. you can't have the switch button for Normal, Sport, Comfort. Only if you order the 535i, 530d or the 550i. I've checked it over and over again, and even the dealer didn't know about this curiosity. But then again, this situation is for the Netherlands.

I've ordered the 528i with standard suspension with 18 RFT's. Will tell all about it, after delivery (EDA 29 april). Will be the 4rd BMW. So I can reflect to the older models and the current one.
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      04-07-2010, 02:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erasmus View Post
LMOR, it is possible to order the Variable Damping Control for the models mentioned, but not the Dynamic Driving Control, i.e. you can't have the switch button for Normal, Sport, Comfort. Only if you order the 535i, 530d or the 550i. I've checked it over and over again, and even the dealer didn't know about this curiosity. But then again, this situation is for the Netherlands.

I've ordered the 528i with standard suspension with 18 RFT's. Will tell all about it, after delivery (EDA 29 april). Will be the 4rd BMW. So I can reflect to the older models and the current one.

This sounds very strange, as this is not the case in Norway, and this is the same from the German site:

2TB - Sport Automatic Getriebe Steptronic, 8-Gang
inkl. Fahrdynamik-Control und Schaltwippen am Lenkrad
(all models)

223 - Dynamische Dämpfer Control
inkl. Fahrdynamik-Control
individuell wählbare Fahrwerkseinstellung (Normal, Comfort, Sport)
(all model that dont offer Adaptive drive)

I think you have been misinformed.
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      04-07-2010, 04:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMOR View Post
This sounds very strange, as this is not the case in Norway, and this is the same from the German site:

2TB - Sport Automatic Getriebe Steptronic, 8-Gang
inkl. Fahrdynamik-Control und Schaltwippen am Lenkrad
(all models)

223 - Dynamische Dämpfer Control
inkl. Fahrdynamik-Control
individuell wählbare Fahrwerkseinstellung (Normal, Comfort, Sport)
(all model that dont offer Adaptive drive)

I think you have been misinformed.
Hi LMOR, sorry but I'm not misinformed. In the option folder:

2VA Adaptive Drive (Electronic Damper Control (EDC) en Dynamic Drive) NOT available for the 523i, 528i, 520d or 525d. ONLY for the 535i, 550i and 530d. Check the link for the Dutch option list (I've ordered a new F10 528i after studying all the options, so I absolutely know what I'm talking about : ) ).

You can however opt for the 223 Dynamic Damper Control, but this doesn't give you the switch button (checked through the Dutch configurator and checked with the dealer). : (

http://www.bmw.nl/nl/nl/general/requ.../overview.html
Click on the << BMW 5 Serie Sedan (2010) Prijslijst >>
Page 9, bottom. X means option, O means standard; the fields are blank. There is no discussion about this, this system is simply no option for the mentioned models. : (
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      04-07-2010, 04:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erasmus View Post
Hi LMOR, sorry but I'm not misinformed. In the option folder:

2VA Adaptive Drive (Electronic Damper Control (EDC) NOT available for the 523i, 528i, 520d or 525d. ONLY for the 535i, 550i and 530d. Check the link for the Dutch option list (I've ordered a new F10 528i after studying all the options, so I know what I'm talking about : ) )

http://www.bmw.nl/nl/nl/general/requ.../overview.html
Click on the << BMW 5 Serie Sedan (2010) Prijslijst >>

You are absolutly right, that 2VA is only available for 535i,550i and 530d!
And 2VA includes 223 and 229.

But there is a difference between 229 - Dynamic Drive and Driving Dynamic Control.

All the other models can add 223 and 2TB as options, and will give you Driving Dynamic Control (Comfort, Normal, Sport). The only thing you can not get is 229 - Active Roll Stabilization

From the Dutch brochure:

Dynamic Driving Control (in combinatie met-traps automatische sporttransmissie, Integral Active Steering, Adaptive Drive of Dynamic Damping Control)

- I assume "of" means "or" as it is in all other contries that I have seen this description

and the "definition" of Dynamic Driving Control :

En met de Dynamic Driving Control kunt u de afstemming van diverse componenten, zoals Dynamische Stabiliteits Controle, gaspedaal en stuurbekrachtiging, beïnvloeden. Zo beschikt u te allen tijde over een individuele afstemming van uw BMW Serie Sedan. Een druk op de schakelaar naast de versnelingspook is voldoende om het rijplezier naar een nog hoger plan te tillen: van NORMAL naar SPORT. In combinatie met Dynamic Damping Control heeft u de beschikking over de aanvullende modus COMFORT. Vooral op lange ritten een waardevolle toevoeging.

and finally the definition of Dynamic Drive:

Met Dynamic Drive wordt de Dynamic Damping Control uitgebreid tot Adaptive Drive. Dankzij de actieve stabilisatoren rondt de BMW 5 Serie Sedan bochten in perfecte balans en met maximaal comfort voor de inzittenden

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      04-07-2010, 08:11 PM   #19
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I've ordered a 535i and added the driving dynamic control (ie with the push button sport/normal) and dynamic damper control option. These 2 come together in 1 option and costs euro 2400.

I did not add the the adaptive drive option which costs an additional euro 3300.

Any comments and anyone has driven a bmw as above, ie with the driving dynamic control (ie with the push button sport/normal) and dynamic damper control option but not the adaptive drive option?

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...sis/index.html

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...2&view=Chassis

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      04-08-2010, 12:42 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
I've ordered a 535i and added the driving dynamic control (ie with the push button sport/normal) and dynamic damper control option. These 2 come together in 1 option and costs euro 2400.

I did not add the the adaptive drive option which costs an additional euro 3300.

Any comments and anyone has driven a bmw as above, ie with the driving dynamic control (ie with the push button sport/normal) and dynamic damper control option but not the adaptive drive option?
What country is this? Normaly you will not be able to buy dynamic damper control without the adaptive drive on a 535i. And if so there will not be 3300 euro in addition for adaptive drive, because dynamic damper control is included in the adaptive drive as decribed above.

If you are talking about 2TB (2350 euro) it includes driving dynamic control, but NOT dynamic damper control.

So I think you need to pay 2350 + 3300 euro to get dynamic damper control on the 535i with Sports automatic.
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      04-08-2010, 12:59 AM   #21
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hi, I don't know why but BMW does it differently in Singapore. There is 1 option no 223 which has both dynamic damper control and dynamic driving and it costs about euro 2400. The other option is no 2VA which has all 3, ie adaptive drive, dynamic damping and dynamic drive and the costs are about 3300 additional, ie euro 5700 for this 1 option which has all 3.

My question is do I just go for option 223 instead of option 2VA which is much more expensive? Is adaptive drive important, if I already have dynamic driving and dynamic damping?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMOR View Post
What country is this? Normaly you will not be able to buy dynamic damper control without the adaptive drive on a 535i. And if so there will not be 3300 euro in addition for adaptive drive, because dynamic damper control is included in the adaptive drive as decribed above.

If you are talking about 2TB (2350 euro) it includes driving dynamic control, but NOT dynamic damper control.

So I think you need to pay 2350 + 3300 euro to get dynamic damper control on the 535i with Sports automatic.
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      04-08-2010, 01:00 AM   #22
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In UK, VDC can be order on 520d/525d/523i/528i without other options.

The 530d/535i/550i can only be ordered with VDC in combintaon with Dynamic Drive.

This is an issue for me, I'd like a 535i with VDC-only but this is not possible. Will wait to see what M-Sport offers.
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