[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by rad doc

Still a bit of risk spending 25-50k on a 10 year old company.

Loxone founded 2008
Savant founded 2005
C4 founded 2003

Not exactly a huge difference between these three. I'd say the much larger vulnerability is the robustness of the integration company installing the system.

Originally Posted by rad doc

so pool control we be just like every other automation system.

Maybe, maybe not. The pool interface would still be beholden to the system providing instructions to it. I guess the question here is what do you have in mind? If it's only a simple timer, then there will be zero difference between systems. If you want the pool to react autonomously to different weather, pool, or other conditions, then Loxone would make the goal FAR easier to accomplish.

Originally Posted by rad doc

Lutron has daylight autonomy which can easily integrate into functions to automate the system. Occupancy sensors are very easy to setup. For instance, Loxone website talks about walking into bathroom and having lights and hvac set to desired level, maybe music. Very easy to automate in Control4 and Savant. Certainly not MASSIVE programming.

Yes, Lutron has occupancy sensors and ambient-light sensors that can control lighting, but this is actually a great example. Allow me to elaborate.

A Loxone system by default continuously monitors the space for occupancy and ambient light level. If you walk into a room at midnight, the lights turn on; and after the space is vacant, it will turn off the lights autonomously after a user-defined time period. Admittedly this isn't that complex to program with most control systems. But Loxone ALSO continuously monitors the ambient light in the room. If the room is above a user-defined brightness level, the lights will remain off even if someone does enter the room. The theory is that you don't need any additional light. Lets say you stay in this bright room long enough for the sun to set. When the ambient light level dips below the user-defined threshold, the lights will turn on.

Again- what I'm stating here IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE with Crestron, C4, Savant, etc., but your integrator is going to have to program these if-this-then-that rules from a blank sheet of paper. This programming will NOT be a nominal cost. Anyone telling you different is ignorant or outright lying. With Loxone this is standard, yet completely defeat-able if preferred.

One more this relevant here... Lutron only knows when sunrise and sunset occur, so all rules are in relation to sunrise, sunset, or day/time. Loxone also knows WHERE the Sun is, what the weather is, and can act upon that information. This is just a deeper level of information to act upon than any other system.

Originally Posted by rad doc

I would disagree that Crestron, Savant or Control4 are not automation. There is lots of automation to be performed if client wishes. Let me provide example, upon entering a set radius Control4 can turn on hvac, smaller radius say one block, open gate and turn on lights. At 11pm, automatically close garage if not close already.

This is a fair point, perhaps I'm not being clear. These control systems do have automation features; just as our automation system does provide control features. I'm speaking to their differing design goals. Loxone can control anything, but we don't provide a huge library of ready-baked "drivers" for third-party equipment because that isn't a goal of ours. Similarly Savent, C4 can automate things, but they don't provide the same level of automation functions as standard features because that isn't their intended goal.

Originally Posted by rad doc

As to stability, never had issue with either our Crestron or C4 systems crashing.

As I said- I'm a pro with three decades of experience. This is poppycock. All systems crash or break. Loxone just does it far, FAR less. To a large degree, this is because we try to provide an end-to-end solution. Did you see that Nest just announced that they're changing how third parties communicate with their products? This literally means that nearly every control system using a Nest product is going to need a truck roll to re-integrate the Nest products into their control system. What do you think it will cost the end-user for this site visit and programming patch? $150? $250? More? Again, this isn't really a knock on these control systems themselves... Nest broke the programming by changing their method of communication. This flaw is that these systems potentially are still relying on a third-party device.

While I'm here- May I suggest people do a search on the complete fail Savant is experiencing with their thermostat? The product has a critical flaw... It can't accurately measure the temperature in the room! Truly a "you had one job" failure scenario. 🤯