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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 Watch the 2012 528i Turbo 4 (N20) Take on Its Older 6 Cylinder on the Road and Dyno |
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03-09-2013, 01:50 AM | #111 |
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The 4 and 6 cylinder BMW's are not V engines but inline/straight 4/6 cylinder engines.
I kind of think that people who are complaining about the i4 engine compared to the i6 engine probably care more about that aspect of their car than you do (and know the difference between a inline and V engine and know that their car does not have a V4 or V6...) And I believe this is the first time I have ever read about someone comparing the BMW six to a V8 Suburban... Those engines are kind of in the opposite end to each other on the scale of engine characteristics... I have grown up with small 4 cyl engines here in Europe and really there is nothing like the sound and feel of a multi cylinder engine (5-6-8 cylinders). It's much smoother and better in NVH aspects. If that aspect doesn't matter that much to the buyer, then the new 4 cyl turbo engines are superb and offer better gas mileage. I have no problem with the 4-cyl engine and applaud BMW for developing new engines with power and gas mileage. But for me, the next BMW will also be a 6- or 8-cylinder model Last edited by Boss330; 03-09-2013 at 02:01 AM.. |
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03-09-2013, 12:48 PM | #112 | |
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As much as you are correct about the i4 vs v4 nomenclature I am not entirely sure whether besides knowing the correct prefix those educated and carrying buyers can even tell the real difference. Funny that you mention V5 (or inline/straight or whatever the lingo) and the "sound and feel" of it. I actually had a V5 2.3 Seat Toledo back in 2000 given the odd number of cylinders, this engine when in idle could never find its sweet spot. The rpms would go up and down; had a very unrefined feel to it. As far as the sound goes; I could not tell the difference between the 1999 four banger E36 318is and the VAG car. I am sure you realize the mention of the "square footage" and the ”suburban” was not meant to be a comparison but just a sarcastic remark. I am equal opportunity too and do not discriminate against the number of cylinders either. As a matter of fact, I can’t wait to test drive the new C7 (hopefully in September). To each his own...
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03-09-2013, 03:46 PM | #113 | |
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When I mentioned the 5 cylinder cars I didn't think of the V5 VAG engine (forgot about that one) but the Audi and Volvo inline 5 cyl engines. Those engines have a sweet sound and refinement. The difference between a V and inline engine is much more than just nomenclature. It's the basic design of the engine that's different, and therefore also the characteristics of the engine. For instance: Due to the odd number of cylinders in each bank, V6 designs are inherently unbalanced, regardless of their V-angle. Each cylinder bank in a V6 has an odd number of pistons, so the V6 also suffers from the same problem unless steps are taken to mitigate it. In the horizontally opposed flat-6 layout, the rocking motions of the two straight cylinder banks offset each other, while in the inline-6 layout, the two ends of engine are mirror images of each other and compensate every rocking motion. The straight-six layout is the simplest engine layout that possesses both primary and secondary mechanical engine balance, resulting in much less vibration than engines with fewer cylinders. The poor secondary harmonic balance of four-cylinder engines is largely addressed with the use of balance shafts although it can never match the in-line six. An inline six engine is in perfect primary and secondary mechanical balance, without the use of a balance shaft. The engine is in primary couple balance because the front and rear trio of cylinders are mirror images, and the pistons move in pairs (but of course, 360° out of phase and on different strokes of the 4-stroke cycle). That is, piston #1 mirrors #6, #2 mirrors #5, and #3 mirrors #4, largely eliminating the polar rocking motion that would otherwise result. Secondary imbalance is avoided because the crankshaft has six crank throws arranged in three planes offset at 120°. The result is that the secondary forces that are caused by differences from purely sinusoidal motion sum to zero. An inline four cylinder or V6 engine without a balance shaft will experience secondary dynamic imbalance, resulting in engine vibration. As a general rule, the forces arising from any dynamic imbalance increase as the square of the engine speed — for example, if the speed doubles, vibration will increase by a factor of four. In contrast, inline six engines have no primary or secondary imbalances, and with carefully designed crankshaft vibration dampers to absorb torsional vibration, will run more smoothly at the same crankshaft speed (rpm). This characteristic has made the straight-six popular in some European sports-luxury cars, where smooth high-speed performance is very desirable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline-6 As you can see it's not just some peoples personal opinions about the difference between a i4 and a i6 (or between a i6 and a V6). It's actually down to physical and mechanical properties of the the different configurations. Most people wont care or notice (my wife would not know or appreciate the difference between a 4 or 6 cyl engine), but for me that's one of the key factors in owning a BMW. And I know there IS a difference. I could also live with a 328i (and enjoy the experience), but I would know that the i4 engine is there because of gas mileage and that the sound and feel of the engine can't match that of the BMW i6 engine. No 4 cyl engine can, due to it's inherent design characteristics. |
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03-09-2013, 04:07 PM | #114 | |
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I didn't say nomenclature was the only difference. I said that you are correct on the proper nomenclature. Not sure where you got the idea that I am claiming nomenclature being the only difference. Of course there are mechanical and physical differences. I never said there aren't. We can keep going on and on about those personal preferences and whether you hear/feel the difference in engines. Folks who want a V6 to begin with shouldn't even test drive the four; they will never be happy with the four banger. It has nothing to do with performance, but more with the aforementioned personal preference. As far as performance goes, a four banger can outperform a v6 as it has been proven many times (i.e 2011 528 vs 2012). Please note that Audi is a VAG car too.
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03-09-2013, 04:57 PM | #115 | ||
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The part about nomenclature was nothing more than a reply to your sentence: Quote:
Personal preferences are really not debatable, because it's hard to argue against that. We all make different choices due to personal preferences, because we have different priorities and interests in life. That's what makes life interesting I would not disrespect someone because they don't have the same preferences I have when it comes to which engine they want to choose I have driven both the 4 cyl and the 6 cyl (as well as the M6) versions of the newest generation BMW. I can both feel and hear the difference between the diffferent engines, but as I said, my wife would not be able to pinpoint the differences (apart from the M6 obviously ). It's kind of like someone who's a musician can hear stuff in music that I don't have a clue about... I didn't say that the i6 has more performance, just that it is a different engine in it's characteristics than a 4 cyl, or even a V6. Obviously a 4 cyl engine can beat a 6 cyl engine. That's just down to the different stage of tune on the respective engines. A turbo'd 4 can beat a NA 6 cyl. But a stock 528i (N20) won't beat a stock 535i (more accurate comparison as both engines are turbocharged). That's not because the 535i is 6 cyl, but because it's a 3l engine and is turbocharged, whereas the 528i is 2l and turbocharged. BTW, the 2011 528i (6cyl) beats the 2012 528i (4 cyl) in the videos I have posted previously: The 528i (6 cyl) take around 24,5sec from 0-200km/h. The 528i N20 (4-cyl) takes around 32,8sec from 0-200km/h. Around 8sec more than the 6cyl 528i, even though it's just as quick to 100km/h... As you can see the N20 528i starts to struggle (compared to the 6-cyl 528i) at higher speeds and looses at lot of time from around 150km/h and upwards. But, that's not the point. Any engine configuration can be made to make lot's of HP. A 4 cyl can beat a 6 cyl engine, and vice versa. The point is that the 4 cyl engine can't have the same smoothness and sound as a 6 cylinder engine, and for some of us that means we prefer the i6 engines EDIT: To me as an automotive engineer, calling a inline 6 cyl engine a V6 is just like calling a violin a guitar or calling a iPod a iPad. Yes there are similarities (like both have 6 cylinders or both instruments have strings), but these are totally different architecture engines. I guess calling a i6 engine a V6 is indication of a not very "engine minded" buyer (nothing wrong with that). To take another example, some just go with the regular sound system in their car, others need the B&O system. That doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the regular sound system, but just different priorities and interests. I would not tell someone who is a audiophile that there is no way you can hear the difference between a std. sound system and a B&O system in their new BMW. I might not be able to appreciate it (I do) but that doesn't mean others do My point being, you might not notice any difference between a i4 and a i6 (and since you keep calling it a V6 I kind of get a feeling that engines are not your #1 interest ), but others actually do. And, again, I have nothing against the new 520i/528i (as it seems others have) and I DO NOT consider a N20 engined 528i a "lesser" 5-series at all. Logically the new 528i is the more rational choice and even has a tuning potential due to the turbocharging. It's a great engine and works great in the 5-series. Last edited by Boss330; 03-10-2013 at 04:43 AM.. |
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03-10-2013, 03:45 PM | #116 |
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Again, thanks for the correction on the nomenclature.
I knew you were gonna bring the higher speeds and how the four banger supposedly chokes at higher speeds compared to the v6. And again on paper, that's very true, in reality though where exactly will you go past 90mph in US ? I never went past 110mph (not that it would go more than 120 anyways) in this car and for NYC/NJ driving the four banger delivers plenty of pickup (coming form S4 experience). My point is very simple here. I am speaking from every day driving experience. 2012 528xi delivers on the promise. Now, if an idea of a 60k four cylinder car doesn't sit well with someone than a 4 cylinder car is not for them, but not because of the sound or smoothness. It has nothing to do with disrespect, but I don't appreciate drinking everybody's kool-aid and that's how many of these 25min test drive reviews sound to me. It gets even better when folks start to compare weigh to hp ratios or timing youtube videos never having even driven N20 in a 5 series. I came across reviews when folks were commenting on how noisy the N20 is, turns they were speaking from 328 experience. I also test drove 535 and 550. Personally, for my driving, 535 would be a waste of extra money when put against 528. In order to really feel the difference (in speed and sound) I would need to go with 550. Even then the 550 interior is quieter than the S4 (not as much roar), which i think has the best stock exhaust/engine combo in its class. That's not the point though, expecting a luxury cruiser to sound like a street approved go-kart is just wrong. These cars cater to different audience.
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03-10-2013, 05:02 PM | #118 | |
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Funny how he repeats his thanks for the correction on nomenclature, but then keeps on calling it a V6 engine Also interesting that he talks about how the 4 cyl engine beats the 6 cyl, but only in the speed intervals that suits him So he attacks me for pointing out that the new 528i isn't faster in the higher speeds than the old 528i. It was just a factual information (but apparently not a relevant fact). |
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03-11-2013, 01:17 PM | #119 | |
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Hear me and understand me. I am telling you that in NYC/NJ you can’t fucking drive that fast. A 0-60 pickup counts more than higher speeds in a jammed city. I am just giving you my perspective on the car as a daily driver yet you’re fucking mentally stuck with this V6/I6. You want a fucking medal for correcting me? You clearly don’t fucking understand that I don’t care about your copy/paste expertise. I get up in the morning and turn the car on and I am happy I didn’t blow the extra buck on the 535 cause the 528xi puts a smile on my face each time I drive it. GOT IT NOW ?
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03-11-2013, 01:46 PM | #120 | ||
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And you said the N20 528i beats the old 528i. Yes apparently it does from 0-60, but where did you say that 0-60 was the only criteria that matters (or that I would be cursed at for pointing out that 0-60 isn't the only acceleration measurement)? For people living in Germany, the 50-100MPH is a more relevant acceleration measurement. Is your point that this thread is only supposed to have information that is relevant for NYC/NJ owners? And, I never called you a Troll or incompetent, so please don't adress me and attack me for things I have not written. My points being: There is a difference between a V and a Inline engine There is a difference between a 4cyl engine and a 6cyl engine (acoustically and in NVH) Even though you might not notice the difference, others do. I have nothing against the N20 528i (see my previous post) I have nothing against your choice (even though you seem to question those who choose the 535i/550i) Your response and choice of words speak louder than words and I think that I rest my case. You clearly don't get my point Enjoy your 528i Last edited by Boss330; 03-11-2013 at 02:04 PM.. |
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03-11-2013, 03:19 PM | #121 |
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New BMW owner here, but I actually picked a 2012 528i over a 2011 535i for the newer V4. I am by no means an auto enthusiast or expert but..
V4 1) 0-60 is half a second faster 2) More fuel-efficient 3) Lighter engine Inline 6 1) faster after 90+ 2) Better sounding engine? 3) Smoother feel? Taking into consideration the I6 costs at least 5k more, practicially speaking and on paper, the V4 looks better to me. Am I missing something? |
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03-11-2013, 03:22 PM | #122 | |
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What do you both know about the N20 in a 5 series driving a diesel or a 530 anyways? Please keep your quotes and essays coming. I am done talking to you. Have a wonderful life sir!
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03-11-2013, 03:26 PM | #123 | |
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03-11-2013, 03:26 PM | #124 |
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COBodom: You clearly haven't read the post where I wrote that I have driven the 5-series with the N20 engine (same as it seems you really have not read that I actually have supported your choice of car, but instead choose to go in full attack mode with language and arguments that remind more of a teenager). When people start attacking with foul language and the accusations you do, it really suggests the person has run out of arguments. Last edited by Boss330; 03-11-2013 at 03:40 PM.. |
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03-11-2013, 03:30 PM | #125 | |
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If you open the hood of your new 528i you will also see that it's not a V4 engine under there |
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03-11-2013, 04:02 PM | #127 |
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Good for you Sherlock.
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03-11-2013, 05:37 PM | #128 | |
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Welcome to the forum, Swack. Sorry to mix you up in this, but you might be interested in knowing that the engine in your car is an inline 4, not a V4. I don't mean to give you a hard time, but it's an important distinction
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03-11-2013, 05:39 PM | #129 | |
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Inline 4. It matters.
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03-11-2013, 06:12 PM | #130 | |
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"I didn't say nomenclature was the only difference. I said that you are correct on the proper nomenclature. Not sure where you got the idea that I am claiming nomenclature being the only difference. Of course there are mechanical and physical differences. I never said there aren't." The guy then became OCD with this $hit providing massive copy/paste trying to prove the difference which I never disputed to begin with.
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03-11-2013, 09:07 PM | #131 | |
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I'm not confused. I read all your posts, and I get what you're saying about relative merits of each engine based on the buyer's priorities. I agree that for many buyers, the layout of the engine amounts to a line item on a spec sheet, and nothing more. I agree with much of what you said... But you keep saying V4, V4, V4. It's driving everyone nuts, and now other people are picking up the incorrect term. You are making everyone around you dumber, just by being part of the conversation. Congrats. We can't have a conversation about relative merit, because you can't use the correct terminology. How do you expect anyone to take what you're saying seriously? Say it with me: I4. Try it once more: I4. It's not difficult. You already conceded the point. Just make the small modicum of effort required to use the correct terminology.
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03-11-2013, 09:35 PM | #132 |
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I had a friend like this, would call and ask what's up, then proceed to ask me why I am annoyed (for no reason, I wasn't) - insist that I was, THEN you really start to get annoyed ... well you get the idea.
It's a personality trait taking the form of a disagreement (or not) on engines. The sole purpose is to transfer his annoyance to you. |
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