[G30M]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Everyone here knows I'm a Ferrari fan but Max is 3rd place and winning races in a slower car that no other driver can handle.

i disagree that Max drove a slower car in Monza.

he drove a slower car in Monza 2024 and came P7 and Perez P8.

this year he said thanks to Mekies the car was much improved allowing him to have the speed to win in Monza.

what he didn't know was how long his tires would last.

re Yuki, Albon explained:

1. a stable car is slow - when he first got in the Williams it was super stable but super slow
2. he told Williams to make it unstable to be fast after learning from Max
3. he said every team will be develope the car to make the lead driver (Max) fast

the RB car is fast! (for Max)
whether it's fastest depends on the circuit, conditions.
i think in Monza it was the top 3.
just don't look at Yuki or Liam. they are both slower than freshie Hadjar.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Rono63

Unlike Red Bull they are a team and work together. When is the last time the second RBR car had the same updates as Max, at least two years ago or never.

Only thing embarrassing is RBR being fourth in the WCC.

Again, if you swapped cars Max would have won all but 1 or 2 races - he as an individual would have more wins than both Mclaren driver have combined. On the flip side, Nor and Pia might have scored a few points each if lucky driving the RB. That's the difference between two guys who can drive a fast car - anyone with any motorsport experience could do it - and someone who makes something fast because of his ability.

[3798j]

These "if pigs could fly" arguments are pretty meaningless. McLaren has a stranglehold on the 2025 season. Their car is the best by far. Verstappen will not be driving it. Verstappen is in third place languishing on a fourth place team.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by 3798j

My "kit" was my preseason wager on McLaren to win the WCC...at +$250, I've got a nice "payday" coming up shortly.
As for following Team McLaren...I was at the '66 USGP watching Bruce McLaren in his McLaren 2B (powered by the Ford Indy V8 destroked to 3.0l) coming in 5th (scoring 2 points).

I meant by 'kit' if you have and wear the hat, polo etc not a bet that you put on

[3798j]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I meant by 'kit' if you have and wear the hat, polo etc not a bet that you put on

I meant "a nice piece of kit" as in "describing a particularly good item"...my bet.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by G30M

i disagree that Max drove a slower car in Monza.

he drove a slower car in Monza 2024 and came P7 and Perez P8.

this year he said thanks to Mekies the car was much improved allowing him to have the speed to win in Monza.

what he didn't know was how long his tires would last.

re Yuki, Albon explained:

1. a stable car is slow - when he first got in the Williams it was super stable but super slow
2. he told Williams to make it unstable to be fast after learning from Max
3. he said every team will be develope the car to make the lead driver (Max) fast

the RB car is fast! (for Max)
whether it's fastest depends on the circuit, conditions.
i think in Monza it was the top 3.
just don't look at Yuki or Liam. they are both slower than freshie Hadjar.

I'll go with that, MAX had something special, brakes, aero you name it. Perhaps Laurent took an ace with him from Ferrari and is using it .

[dfox]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Again, if you swapped cars Max would have won all but 1 or 2 races - he as an individual would have more wins than both Mclaren driver have combined. On the flip side, Nor and Pia might have scored a few points each if lucky driving the RB. That's the difference between two guys who can drive a fast car - anyone with any motorsport experience could do it - and someone who makes something fast because of his ability.

I think you're discounting Norris and Piastri a little too much.

Sure, they've got a fast car, but clearly it's not worlds away, when a little dremel work swings the result so drastically.

Norris as a rookie was nipping at the heels of Sainz who was on his 4th year. 2nd year in, Lando got more points, improving pretty rapidly. Obviously he blew Ricciardo out of the water the next two years. Not really any other even comparisons to say that Lando is only doing well because of the car.

Sainz went to win races with Ferrari. Could Lando have done better if he had landed at Ferrari instead?

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by dfox

I think you're discounting Norris and Piastri a little too much.

Sure, they've got a fast car, but clearly it's not worlds away, when a little dremel work swings the result so drastically.

Norris as a rookie was nipping at the heels of Sainz who was on his 4th year. 2nd year in, Lando got more points, improving pretty rapidly. Obviously he blew Ricciardo out of the water the next two years. Not really any other even comparisons to say that Lando is only doing well because of the car.

Sainz went to win races with Ferrari. Could Lando have done better if he had landed at Ferrari instead?

Certainly an ok take but let's remember in 2023 and 2024 when Mclaren had a car about as good as the RB is now. They were nowhere - not even sniffing a podium on a great day...Lando and Piasti were driving their hearts out for 15th through last place. They often times ended up right between De Vries and Sargent. It wasnt not until their car got so fast that they were able to get decent results. It certainly wasnt them. And clearly based on the fact that they always finished within a few places of one another neither were able to do much to perform above and beyond like Max does. Beyond that, once the car got fast they were both up there meaning it is totally the car. Even further, they both blew the 2024 WDC which should have gone to a Mclaren given they were fastest from Miami onward...but again neither Lando or Piastri can drive for shit in the rain. They are average-ish drivers in a great car - MB proved a plumb average driver in Ham and Ros could win for 7 years in a row so nothing more than that. RB is the opposite - a car that needs a driver to perform at a top level to accomplish anything which is why I think the 2021-2024 WDC wins for Max are easily the ones that carry the most weight to them in decades. The second driver for RB (3 drivers) over the last 20 races has only scored like 20 points. That is how bad their car is with anyone else not named Max driving it.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

MB proved a plumb average driver in Ham and Ros could win for 7 years in a row so nothing more than that.

he may or may not be as good as Max but he was already equally as good as Alonso (2x world champion) in his first season. if that is plumb average then i think you're standards are impossibly high.

Kimi antonelli in his first season after driving 10,000km in special training arranged by Wolff is not doing too good. even Max in his first couple of seasons didn't do too good but he's fast becoming the goat.

i do think though cars were easier to drive back then (use talent vs fighting technology). too much ground effect nonsense this generation of cars. just ask the wet tires.

[Rono63]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Certainly an ok take but let's remember in 2023 and 2024 when Mclaren had a car about as good as the RB is now. They were nowhere - not even sniffing a podium on a great day...Lando and Piasti were driving their hearts out for 15th through last place. They often times ended up right between De Vries and Sargent. It wasnt not until their car got so fast that they were able to get decent results. It certainly wasnt them. And clearly based on the fact that they always finished within a few places of one another neither were able to do much to perform above and beyond like Max does. Beyond that, once the car got fast they were both up there meaning it is totally the car. Even further, they both blew the 2024 WDC which should have gone to a Mclaren given they were fastest from Miami onward...but again neither Lando or Piastri can drive for shit in the rain. They are average-ish drivers in a great car - MB proved a plumb average driver in Ham and Ros could win for 7 years in a row so nothing more than that. RB is the opposite - a car that needs a driver to perform at a top level to accomplish anything which is why I think the 2021-2024 WDC wins for Max are easily the ones that carry the most weight to them in decades. The second driver for RB (3 drivers) over the last 20 races has only scored like 20 points. That is how bad their car is with anyone else not named Max driving it.

McLearn won all three “wet” races this year.

You sure are trying hard to justify your guy being in third place.

You might have a really bad year next season if the RBR Ford powered car is in the midfield.

I am enjoying McLaren’s success (It’s been quite a while since they have done this well) but it does ruin my day if they don’t win.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Rono63

McLearn won all three “wet” races this year.

You sure are trying hard to justify your guy being in third place.

You might have a really bad year next season if the RBR Ford powered car is in the midfield.

I am enjoying McLaren’s success (It’s been quite a while since they have done this well) but it does ruin my day if they don’t win.

When your car is that fast with no tire deg you should win. Max has been right there in a MUCH slower car. Not trying to justify third place but it is incredible he is there when both Ferraris are faster and both MBs are more stable, easy to drive cars, yet he has more wins than both drivers for both teams combined.

I don't expect Max to win every year. Again, he has won 4 in a row, in which I doubt anyone on the grid will accomplish as no one on the grid now is good enough to do it. Watching what he did to the Mclarens last year even though they should have won the WDC given how much faster their car was over 80% of the season is just enjoyable.

But don't worry, Mclaren will eventually find another 2 or 3 decades where they suck again and theyre being pounded into the pavement by an energy drinks company.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Certainly an ok take but let's remember in 2023 and 2024 when Mclaren had a car about as good as the RB is now. They were nowhere - not even sniffing a podium on a great day...Lando and Piasti were driving their hearts out for 15th through last place. They often times ended up right between De Vries and Sargent. It wasnt not until their car got so fast that they were able to get decent results. It certainly wasnt them. And clearly based on the fact that they always finished within a few places of one another neither were able to do much to perform above and beyond like Max does. Beyond that, once the car got fast they were both up there meaning it is totally the car. Even further, they both blew the 2024 WDC which should have gone to a Mclaren given they were fastest from Miami onward...but again neither Lando or Piastri can drive for shit in the rain. They are average-ish drivers in a great car - MB proved a plumb average driver in Ham and Ros could win for 7 years in a row so nothing more than that. RB is the opposite - a car that needs a driver to perform at a top level to accomplish anything which is why I think the 2021-2024 WDC wins for Max are easily the ones that carry the most weight to them in decades. The second driver for RB (3 drivers) over the last 20 races has only scored like 20 points. That is how bad their car is with anyone else not named Max driving it.

2023 started out rocky for McLaren, but the second half of the year Norris was often on podium, not fighting Sargent. 2024, Norris finished 2nd in the driver championship. Not sure you're remembering those years totally accurately... Clearly their car has been getting better, but so have the drivers.

I'm not trying to discount Max, fwiw. He's the best driver on the grid, no doubt in my mind. But just like Checo deserved more credit for what he did in that RB, Norris and Piastri aren't just handed races because they have a car that's by far and away faster than the others.

[Rono63]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

When your car is that fast with no tire deg you should win. Max has been right there in a MUCH slower car. Not trying to justify third place but it is incredible he is there when both Ferraris are faster and both MBs are more stable, easy to drive cars, yet he has more wins than both drivers for both teams combined.

I don't expect Max to win every year. Again, he has won 4 in a row, in which I doubt anyone on the grid will accomplish as no one on the grid now is good enough to do it. Watching what he did to the Mclarens last year even though they should have won the WDC given how much faster their car was over 80% of the season is just enjoyable.

But don't worry, Mclaren will eventually find another 2 or 3 decades where they suck again and theyre being pounded into the pavement by an energy drinks company.

Maybe you need some help remembering.
Hamilton is still on the grid and had four in a row also, plus still has three more than Max.

Forth in the WCC, your drink company is the one getting pounded into the pavement.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Rono63

Maybe you need some help remembering.
Hamilton is still on the grid and had four in a row also, plus still has three more than Max.

Forth in the WCC, your drink company is the one getting pounded into the pavement.

Remind me where Mclaren was for the last 20 years while that energy drinks company won 8 WDCs?

The assumption was anyone who could win 4 in a row. Max very well might win 4 in a row again.

Doesnt change the fact that Mclaren have second rate drivers who are only good due to the car. They'd never even win a race driving any RB car.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by dfox

2023 started out rocky for McLaren, but the second half of the year Norris was often on podium, not fighting Sargent. 2024, Norris finished 2nd in the driver championship. Not sure you're remembering those years totally accurately... Clearly their car has been getting better, but so have the drivers.

I'm not trying to discount Max, fwiw. He's the best driver on the grid, no doubt in my mind. But just like Checo deserved more credit for what he did in that RB, Norris and Piastri aren't just handed races because they have a car that's by far and away faster than the others.

Exactly my point. Only when the car became good did results come. Guys like Max won more races in worse cars. Same for Ham, he cannot win whatsoever if he doesnt have a car that is so dominant that no one else in the field is technically racing.

[3798j]

I've read about the reasons why people spend so much time reliving past glories. Think we're seeing that here. RBR won the '23 WCC, followed with a third place finish last year and seem destined to finish fourth in '25. With such a downhill roll it doesn't surprise that RBR fans find themselves dwelling with their memories.
At least there is a consensus on this forum...it's the car. The MCL39 is a monster, winning twelve Grands Prix, scoring nine pole positions, setting eleven fastest laps, and finishing on the podium a total of twenty-seven times.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by 3798j

I've read about the reasons why people spend so much time reliving past glories. Think we're seeing that here. RBR won the '23 WCC, followed with a third place finish last year and seem destined to finish fourth in '25. With such a downhill roll it doesn't surprise that RBR fans find themselves dwelling with their memories.
At least there is a consensus on this forum...it's the car. The MCL39 is a monster, winning twelve Grands Prix, scoring nine pole positions, setting eleven fastest laps, and finishing on the podium a total of twenty-seven times.

It's def the car for the Mclaren boys because without the car they were scrapping with Logan Sargent and the likes for a good part of 2023. Not even when Max was driving one of the worst cars on the grid in 2015 did he have finishes as bad as the two Mclaverage drivers did in 2023 with one of the better cars on the grid. Not counting DNFs, in 2023 Pia had 9 finishes in 11th place or worse. Nor had 5 finishes of the same kind - you don't go from back markers to podiums just because you improved. Conversely, with worse cars Max in his entire career has only finished 11th or worse 4 times and that was with the TR in 2015 and was literally the worst car.
Max has won 2 WDCs in outright slower car - 2021 and 2024. The last time anyone won in a slower car was 30 years ago.

[3798j]

Think we're detecting some deserved admiration towards this incredible McLaren season...a bit reluctant but that's understandable.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by 3798j

I've read about the reasons why people spend so much time reliving past glories. Think we're seeing that here. RBR won the '23 WCC, followed with a third place finish last year and seem destined to finish fourth in '25. With such a downhill roll it doesn't surprise that RBR fans find themselves dwelling with their memories.
At least there is a consensus on this forum...it's the car. The MCL39 is a monster, winning twelve Grands Prix, scoring nine pole positions, setting eleven fastest laps, and finishing on the podium a total of twenty-seven times.

You win that bet going back to 1966 with B McLaren