[alex_c]

CORRECTED ON 8/14/2010 DUE TO MORE DETAILED INFORMATION AND AN ERROR ON THE ORIGINAL POST.

Ok, there have been many posts trying to decypher why and when do you get the toggle switch that enables Dynamic Driving Control next to the shifter, and when you have it, what exactly is the difference between the 2 DDC configurations. I know this is a LONG post, so if you only want the bottom line, skip all the way down until reach the CONCLUSIONS.


First of all, you will get the Dynamic Driving Control Switch when you order one of these combinations:
a) ZSP (Sports package) + ZDH (Dynamic Handling Package)
b) ZSP (Sports package) + 2TB(Sports Automatic transmission)

Option (a) will give you a switch labeled SPORT/COMFORT, which will let you select a range of driving modes going from COMFORT to NORMAL to SPORT to SPORT+

Option (b) will give you a switch labeled SPORT/NORMAL, which will let you select a range of driving modes going from NORMAL to SPORT to SPORT+


So, then what exactly does the Dynamic Driving Control do? Here's the answer:

A) If you have option ZDH, it adjusts the Dampers and Active Roll Stabilizers depending on the program selected (Comfort: soft, Normal: Stiffer, Sport: Stiffest, Sport+: like Sport but also changes the traction control DSC)

b) If you have option 2TB, it adjusts the Steering column, accelerator pedal and transmission shift points. (Normal: slightly stiffer steering than a vehicle without 2TB, normal accelerator and faster gear changes than a vehicle without 2TB; Sport: Stiffer steering, stiffer and more direct accelerator pedal and much faster and higher shift points in the transmission)


I removed the rest of the mumbo-jumbo from the manual and brochures to avoid further confussion.

I also apologize if I made this topic even more complicated than it had to be in the first place, but without an actual vehicle to test and experiment extensively, some of these things are not very clear in the manual and/or the brochures.



CONCLUSIONS


So, clearly, these 2 options are not opposites, but complement each other.

Of course, you can have one of them, the other, or both. It all depends on how you like to drive, and what is more important to you.

For some, like me, the 2TB with the stiffer, more direct steering, a more willing transmission, and paddle shifters are all I need to have lots of fun in my car. The standard suspension on this car may be more than enough for about 90% of customers. Me included.

If you also like very agressive cornering, drive thru a lot of curves, or like to track your car, then ZDH is definately for you, and if you get ZDH, I would recommend that for only $500 more, you add 2TB. It is well worh the price.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by alex_c

Here's a direct quote from the manual to substantiate this so far:

Dynamic Driving Control*
The concept
Dynamic Driving Control can be used to adjust
the driving dynamics of the vehicle. Several pro‐
grams are available for this purpose; they can be
activated using the two Dynamic Driving Control
buttons.

Operating the programs
Press the button Program
DSC OFF
TRACTION
SPORT+
SPORT
NORMAL
COMFORT*
For Dynamic Damper Control*, the lower button
is labeled with COMFORT.

So, then what exactly does the Dynamic Driving Control do? Here's the answer:

Dynamic Drive*
The concept
Dynamic Drive reduces the lateral inclination of
the vehicle that occurs during rapid driving in
curves or during quick evasive maneuvers.
Driving stability and driving comfort are increased
under all driving conditions. The system
utilizes active stabilizer bars on the front and rear
axles that react immediately to all driving situations.


CONCLUSIONS

So, if you made it reading all the way down here, now you know the real truth about the 2 types of suspension in the Dynamic Driving Control:

a) The BASIC setup, included with 2TB and gives you REAL CONTROL of the SUSPENSION by using active stabilizers which can stiffen the ride.

b) The FULL setup, included with ZDH, which gives you everything in (a) plus Dynamic Damping Control (shock absorbers), Active Roll Stabilization and Adaptive Drive, which is the brain that adjusts the shocks and roll bars on-the-fly to maximize stability and comfort.

So, the bottom line is: for only $500 you can get a real sports-tuned suspension controlled by you, depending on how you feel like driving your car today. If you want an even more agressive sportiness AND even greater comfort, then spend $2,700 for ZDH.

NOTE: I only mentioned the differences in suspension tuning between these two options, but of course, with both of them you get the corresponding changes also in the transmission, which includes more sensitive acceleration, faster gear changes, and higher revs in SPORT mode, along with a stiffer steering feel.

So, those of you who have 2TB and thought that the suspension felt different when you selected SPORT, rest assured, you are not crazy, it really changes...!

Sorry for the long post, but someone had to do it...

Thanks, but I was told otherwise by my dealer. The dynamic driving control toggle button adjusts the chassis in conjunction with adaptive drive or dynamic damping control. Otherwise the steering is stiffened giving the feel/illusion that the chassis is stiffened.

One test is to check out a f10 without the adaptive drive, or dynamic damping control. Use the iDrive and adjust the chassis, ticked and not ticked. I believe there's no difference. Pls let me know if there's any difference.

If the f10 has adaptive drive or dynamic damping control, there will be a difference when the iDrive adjusts the chassis.

[alex_c]

Tell the dealer to read the manual.

The suspension is made up of many components, not just the shock absorbers. The shocks only get adjusted with ZDH, that is true, but they are only one component. The active stabilizers are adjusted with 2TB and ZDH and that clearly changes the feel and behavior of the suspension.

I have driven both vehicles, one with ZDH and one with 2TB. The sports feeling is more pronounced with ZDH, but there is a very, very noticeable change in behavior and feel when you enable SPORT on a vehicle with 2TB. It is NOT due to the stiffening of the steering. You can see how the body roll is noticeably reduced with SPORT.

As for your dealer knowing in detail, I would be very surprised if he even knew that you get the switch with 2TB. Most dealers go thru life with the minimum effort to know their product. I am obsessive when I want to know something, and you will be surprised at how many so-called "experts" don't know jack.

Think of this: If all that was changed with the switch was the transmission, then why not just move the shift lever to the left and select S (sports mode) and avoid the confussion? The answer: because the SPORT button does change the SUSPENSION, TRANSMISSION, and STEERING.

[blackberrycubed]

thank you so much for clearing this up, you have helped greatly in my decision process.

Two thumbs up for you

[bm323]

Originally Posted by alex_c

As for your dealer knowing in detail, I would be very surprised if he even knew that you get the switch with 2TB. Most dealers go thru life with the minimum effort to know their product. I am obsessive when I want to know something, and you will be surprised at how many so-called "experts" don't know jack.

Think of this: If all that was changed with the switch was the transmission, then why not just move the shift lever to the left and select S (sports mode) and avoid the confussion? The answer: because the SPORT button does change the SUSPENSION, TRANSMISSION, and STEERING.

He knows

Well, anyway you may be correct, I'm not sure. As regards the difference with the shift lever, moving the shift lever changes only the throttle/transmission whereas the 2TB switch in sport changes the transmission as well as stiffening the steering but not the chassis, if he's correct

A few of us explored this some time back
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=116 as taken from http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthre...=368952&page=6

But I do note that you have a point with reference to the manual; I'm only not sure whether the manual on the 2TB switch is with reference to dynamic damping control/adaptive drive which is set out before that (referring to the 2TB switch)

[kplsoleil]

Great info Alex thank you! Definitely very helpful. I was totally confused before.

Sometimes with all these new technologies it's difficult to keep up and as much as I hate reading manuals, it seems that's now necessary with these modern day BMWs

[pharding]

Thank you. Very informative.

[raleedy]

Interesting, but it doesn't make sense. If you look at the ordering guide for the US versions of the 528i and the 535i, you'll see that ZDH is a different package for the two different models. In the 535i, ZDH includes the adjustable shock absorbers (dynamic damping control) and the adjustable struts (adaptive roll stabilization), for a MSRP of $2,700. In the 528i, ZDH consists only of the adjustable shock absorbers, or dynamic damping control, and the MSRP is $1,000. It's possible, I suppose, that the extra $1,700 in the price for the 535 is for nothing, but I think it's unlikely. More likely is that BMW's explanation of this is (as so often happens with their promotional material) garbled and confusing.

[alex_c]

Originally Posted by bm323

... I'm only not sure whether the manual on the 2TB switch is with reference to dynamic damping control/adaptive drive which is set out before that (referring to the 2TB switch)

The manual says that the switch options are:

SPORT+
SPORT
NORMAL
COMFORT*
For Dynamic Damper Control*, the lower button
is labeled with COMFORT.

As you can see, COMFORT is the only difference when you have Dynamic Damper Control. Otherwise it would say For Dynamic Drive Control*, the lower button is labeled with COMFORT.

Also, see here the definition of Dynamic Drive:

"Dynamic Drive.
Supreme agility, unwavering stability and unmatched comfort on bends: the active chassis control system Dynamic Drive minimises body roll and distributes it between both axles, ensuring a comfortable ride for all occupants.

Dynamic Drive uses active stabilisers on the front and rear axles to counteract the vehicle's tendency to roll in a corner. Working together with acceleration and position sensors, a management system and other components, such as a compensation tank for sound control, the system ensures supreme agility at all speeds, balanced reactions to load changes and remarkably precise steering.
The stabilisers continually adapt to suit the driving situation and the changes to the vehicle's self-steering behaviour. For example, when driving on the straight, Dynamic Drive reduces the pressure of the stabilisers, treating them individually, so allowing for a highly comfortable ride - a particular benefit for rear-seat passengers.
When cornering or making sudden changes of direction, a "sportier" setting will see the stabilisers increase the rigidity of the suspension relevant to the intensity of the lateral forces to prevent body roll. Roll distribution between the front and back axles also helps in difficult situations.
Dynamic Drive ensures that the vehicle literally hugs the road, under- or oversteering is reduced - resulting in enhanced safety, greater comfort and an impressively dynamic driving experience."

As you can see, dynamic drive does not mention dampers at all, because the adaptive dampers are part of the Dynamic Damper Control, not Dynamic Drive.

Think of it this way: Dynamic Drive will afect the ROLLING efect (lateral inclination), while Dynamic Dampers (part of the ZDH) will aftect the bobbing effect (up and down); finally, Adaptive Drive is the puppetmaster pulling the strings of Dynamic Drive and Dynamic Dampers to adjust the ride to changing road conditions automatically.

Bottom line: 2TB in SPORT mode will pull the reins on the active stabilizers for a firmer resistance to roll in a fixed setting. ZDH in SPORT mode will summon the active stabilizers to a firmer status AND stiffen the damperswhen ordered by Adaptive Drive to do so in response to the changes in the terrain.

If it is still not clear, think of 2TB as a FIRM/SOFT switch on the stabilizers. ZDH is a FIRMER/SOFTER switch on the stabilizers AND the dampers with an electronic brain behind it to do it on-the-fly and depending on the road conditions. That's why one is $500 and the other is $2,700

[alex_c]

Originally Posted by raleedy

In the 528i, ZDH consists only of the adjustable shock absorbers, or dynamic damping control, and the MSRP is $1,000. It's possible, I suppose, that the extra $1,700 in the price for the 535 is for nothing, but I think it's unlikely.

In the 528 the Dynamic Damping Control is just a basic FIRM/SOFT/SOFTER setting, just like the basic active stabilizers are with 2TB. On the 528 you don't get the Active Roll Stabilization (dynamically changing the stabilizers) nor the Adaptive Drive, which is the computer (and the corresponding sensors) tasked with adjusting the settings of DDC and ARS as the road changes. Those 2 extra items are worth $1,700

Could they have offered the full ZDH on the 528? Of course. It has the same hardware as the 535. They didn't do it because most likely a driver of a 528 will not push the vehicle as hard as someone willing to get the 535. For the same reason you don't get the full ZDH on smaller displacement engine models like 520d, etc.

[tk005x]

I think BMW NA also thought if people would shell out the extra money for performance options they would just go for the 535i.

[alex_c]

Originally Posted by tk005x

I think BMW NA also thought if people would shell out the extra money for performance options they would just go for the 535i.

+1

[HighlandPete]

I must say reading this through, seems there is still total confusion on what we get with each option.

In the UK, 2TB does not include Dynamic Drive, NO adjustable chassis components, (stabilisers/roll bars).

There is no chassis adjustment, with the sport setting, (even though it shows in the menu of iDrive), although the steering does tighten and make the car feel more sure footed.

We can have VDC (223) as a stand alone option on some lower models, with DDC controller, and Adaptive Drive (2VA) on others, like the 535i (VDC + Dynamic Drive).

We had BMW UK involved in the discussion and I had access to a document from BMW Marketing, which clearly sets out the option setups. Dynamic Drive (adjustable stabilisers/roll bars) ONLY come with option 2VA, definitely not included with any other package in the UK.

BTW, the option costs reflect the structure of fitment.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by alex_c

a) The BASIC setup, included with 2TB and gives you REAL CONTROL of the SUSPENSION by using active stabilizers which can stiffen the ride.


So, those of you who have 2TB and thought that the suspension felt different when you selected SPORT, rest assured, you are not crazy, it really changes...!

Sorry but the first comment is not supported by BMW, or the car setup itself.

I agree with your second (quoted) comment "feels different when sport is selected" but it is not caused by adaptive stabilisers/roll bars.

HighlandPete

[alex_c]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Sorry but the first comment is not supported by BMW, or the car setup itself.

HighlandPete

Pete, I quoted exactly what the manual says. Can you please let me know where does BMW not support what I said? Also, have you driven the vehicle with 2TB?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by alex_c

Pete, I quoted exactly what the manual says. Can you please let me know where does BMW not support what I said? Also, have you driven the vehicle with 2TB?

Don't read the manual as gospel, I read the manual from the car I tested, while the Dealer Principal talked with BMW UK. The manual does not say what we may think it says. BMW UK confirmed that option 2TB with DDC (Drive Dynamic Control) does not have suspension tuning unless you add the additional packages. Even the iDrive menu with chassis configurations does not mean suspension hardware is present.

We did discuss this at the time in the other theads, referenced further up this thread.

Yes I have driven cars with and without 2TB, the 2TB car does feel different when toggled to sport on the DDC controller. But I assure you the car tested did not have any adjustable suspension systems. Hence why we got to the bottom of this issue with those who know in BMW UK.

BTW, the option 2TB is only £110 (sterling) here in the UK, so you only get options to tweak/change software parameters for that price, no suspension hardware. Dynamic Drive, the active stabiliser's cost is about £1,200's (sterling) worth of kit in the UK, but must be bought with VDC at £2,220. No F10 car in the UK can have Dynamic Drive as a stand alone suspension option. VDC yes, but the two are combined as Adaptive Drive.

HighlandPete

[raleedy]

Originally Posted by alex_c

In the 528 the Dynamic Damping Control is just a basic FIRM/SOFT/SOFTER setting, just like the basic active stabilizers are with 2TB. On the 528 you don't get the Active Roll Stabilization (dynamically changing the stabilizers) nor the Adaptive Drive, which is the computer (and the corresponding sensors) tasked with adjusting the settings of DDC and ARS as the road changes. Those 2 extra items are worth $1,700

Could they have offered the full ZDH on the 528? Of course. It has the same hardware as the 535. They didn't do it because most likely a driver of a 528 will not push the vehicle as hard as someone willing to get the 535. For the same reason you don't get the full ZDH on smaller displacement engine models like 520d, etc.

I'm not buying any of it. The order guide lists 2TB as "Sport automatic transmission." The BMWUSA website shows the "Sport Automatic" as a $500 option that provides shift paddles and software for faster transmission response. Period.

[alex_c]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Don't read the manual as gospel, I read the manual from the car I tested, while the Dealer Principal talked with BMW UK... HighlandPete

You are right Pete, I shouldn't believe the online manual, the printed manual, the manual on iDrive, the software on the vehicle, the sales brochure, and the fact that you have a physical toggle switch which should not do anything. The only trusted source of knowledge is your friendly neighborhood dealer.

[akhter]

What is being suggested is that 8sp Sport also includes active rolls stabilization, and I don't buy it. Why? I just checked the brochure (page 36).

Dynamic Damping Control- These are the adjustable shocks.

Dynamic Driving Control-The system fine-tunes such features as accelerator response or power steering, enabling you to individualize the dynamic feel of your BMW.

Adaptive Drive-Combines two active components, Dynamic Drive (different from Dynamic Driving control above), which are the active stabilizers AND Dynamic Damping Control to control not just acceleration and power-steering but active roll and adjustable shocks.

I think the confusion is that people are mixing Dynamic Drive (active roll stabilization) with Dynamic Drive Control (button to setup steering and transmission). You only get the latter with 8sp sport tranny.

And Adaptive Drive is known as DHP in NA.

[alex_c]

Originally Posted by raleedy

I'm not buying any of it. The order guide lists 2TB as "Sport automatic transmission." The BMWUSA website shows the "Sport Automatic" as a $500 option that provides shift paddles and software for faster transmission response. Period.

Here's a question: If all 2TB adds is transmission software and paddle shifters, then WHY THE HECK does BMW spend the money to install a useless switch? You could simply move the lever to the left and enable S mode on the transmission, just like you do on the regular automatic transmission.

Also, the iDrive software is extremely complex, and as most of todays high-end vehicle electronic control software, it is DIRECTLY related and dependent on the existing HARDWARE. It would be absolutely stupid to have options showing up on iDrive that are not present in hardware. Today's software is hardware-aware, which means that if something is not present, the options are not shown. Have you tried to dial a phone number when your phone has not been paired with bluetooth or connected to the phone-adapter? No? Well, you can't because it recognizes there is no phone. Have you tried switching from FM to Satellite when you don't have Satellite radio? It is not shown at all. Does it mean that there are millions of software versions out there for every single configuration of vehicles? No. The software is hardware aware and enables and disables menus and options accordingly.

Do you think that something as CRITICAL for stability control calculations such as the type of chasis controls present would be left to chance??? If iDrive says that you can enable or disable Chasis Enhancements, is BECAUSE THEY ARE PRESENT. It would be RIDICULOUS that the software engineers would leave an option present that they could have disabled from even being shown with a single line of code. The limits on traction control and stability control are diferent when you have active dampers, or active stabilizers, etc., so the ECU knows EXACTLY what's present in the car. So, if the vehicle knows -according to you- that there is no chasis enhancements, WHY EVEN DISPLAY THE OPTION???

By the way, the EXCACT wording on the full vehicle brochure picked up 3 weeks ago in Munich says:

"Dynamic Driving Control allows the driver to select Normal or Sports mode at the push of a button. Comfort Mode in conjunction with Adaptive Drive or Dynamic Damping Control."

Can it be any more clear? It DOES NOT say: Fake dynamic driving control with only Normal and Sports mode. Only for decorative purposes... The only real dynamic driving control comes with Adaptive Drive or Dynamic Damping Control"

[bm323]

Originally Posted by alex_c

You are right Pete, I shouldn't believe the online manual, the printed manual, the manual on iDrive, the software on the vehicle, the sales brochure, and the fact that you have a physical toggle switch which should not do anything. The only trusted source of knowledge is your friendly neighborhood dealer.

Well, it is mentioned above that the toggle button does effect change, and different from the shifting of the lever. Why your mention eg the sales brochure?

You may not understand, but HighlandPete is being helpful to avoid forummers misunderstanding the options. Just glance at the thread I posted above and you will see the confusion and the pains plus time taken trying to clear a number of issues. We're not trying to argue for the purpose of arguing.

But I am not discounting the fact that it is of course possible that we are mistaken after our checks. Noone is infallible. My dealer here is not one of a few dealers, they are the sole authorised dealer and I believe they checked with BMW Germany as the material were far from clear [but yes, at that time the manual (which i would not say is entirely clear) was not released yet]. Again, I'm not discounting the fact that we can be mistaken and I don't mean any sarcasm in this.

[akhter]

Another point. I have driven BMWs with active roll stabilization (last gen 7 series) and without (in Sport+ mode in F10) and its clear that even if 8sp transmission has any kind of roll stabilization--its next to useless.