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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 F10 Technical Topics Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications F10 550i (N63TU) Tune by Cedar Performance
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      10-06-2021, 02:38 AM   #1
TuckerE36
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F10 550i (N63TU) Tune by Cedar Performance

Got the F10 dyno tuned today at Cedar Performance and just wanted some feedback on what the car actually put down at baseline and the end result. Car is stock and has 41k miles, installed new NGK 97506 plugs gapped at 0.022” and Eldor coils the day before tune.

Baseline- 355.9whp/334.9wft-tq
Final dyno- 438.7whp/405.1wft-tq

Even though it’s stage 1 I’m feeling a little disappointed in the numbers. Car pulls nicely though.
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      10-06-2021, 09:24 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerE36 View Post
Got the F10 dyno tuned today at Cedar Performance and just wanted some feedback on what the car actually put down at baseline and the end result. Car is stock and has 41k miles, installed new NGK 97506 plugs gapped at 0.022” and Eldor coils the day before tune.

Baseline- 355.9whp/334.9wft-tq
Final dyno- 438.7whp/405.1wft-tq

Even though it’s stage 1 I’m feeling a little disappointed in the numbers. Car pulls nicely though.
That baseline is significantly lower than most, so I'd say its a low reading dyno and that final dyno number seems decent. The curve on the tune seems very conservative compared to the stock but I assume they did it that way to stay "safe". Ultimately, you need to put it on a track or get a draggy so you can have a more relevant measurement of how its performing.
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      10-06-2021, 12:14 PM   #3
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I told Matt at Cedar Performance that I wanted a semi conservative tune, he said there was a lot of room up top for improvement. I was also thinking their dyno read low, which isn’t typical for dyno jet, usually Mustang dyno’s read lower from my past experience with dyno tunes. I might start logging some data and then return for an adjustment in the future. The engine is highly maintenanced so I’m not worried about going a little more aggressive than then current tune.
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      10-06-2021, 12:35 PM   #4
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I guess I’m feeling a little cheated for some reason because the custom tune was $1200 and a BM3 OTS stage 1 tune for hundreds less makes more power.
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      10-07-2021, 07:27 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerE36 View Post
I guess I’m feeling a little cheated for some reason because the custom tune was $1200 and a BM3 OTS stage 1 tune for hundreds less makes more power.
Thats a fair feeling. Unfortunately tuners and most of the community like to pretend theres hookus pookus when it comes to tuning and will lean on the "unknown" to justify not giving a tune the attention it deserves.

If anything, I'd say theres more room in the curve than up top. You can clearly see its making less power than the stock tune from 2.7k all the way to 5.4k. Thats not a big deal because when you are WOT, shifts stay around/above 5.5k and reducing power (primarily torque) in the lower rpm is "safer" for the powertrain.

But yes, ultimately you would have been better off with BM3 as its cheaper and potentially produces the same or more power while being equally as "reliable" while still retaining the ability to get a custom tune in the future if you chose.

You should start with getting a draggy and testing 60-130. That way, if you do have Matt make adjustments you can see how they are performing (in a real world fashion, as opposed to a dyno).
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      10-07-2021, 08:35 AM   #6
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Im assuming you are running 91 octane, OTS maps adds 25%HP / 30%TQ , you got 23% HP / 21% TQ

There should be a lot more room for power
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      10-07-2021, 10:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BettyFkinCrocker View Post
Thats a fair feeling. Unfortunately tuners and most of the community like to pretend theres hookus pookus when it comes to tuning and will lean on the "unknown" to justify not giving a tune the attention it deserves.

If anything, I'd say theres more room in the curve than up top. You can clearly see its making less power than the stock tune from 2.7k all the way to 5.4k. Thats not a big deal because when you are WOT, shifts stay around/above 5.5k and reducing power (primarily torque) in the lower rpm is "safer" for the powertrain.

But yes, ultimately you would have been better off with BM3 as its cheaper and potentially produces the same or more power while being equally as "reliable" while still retaining the ability to get a custom tune in the future if you chose.

You should start with getting a draggy and testing 60-130. That way, if you do have Matt make adjustments you can see how they are performing (in a real world fashion, as opposed to a dyno).
Very solid advise, I’ll pick a morning when the AIT’s are in the low 60’s and do some pulls and data log it.
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      10-07-2021, 10:50 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Im assuming you are running 91 octane, OTS maps adds 25%HP / 30%TQ , you got 23% HP / 21% TQ

There should be a lot more room for power
I run 93 oct. I’ll log some data and return for an retune at some point. I’m not unhappy with the little bump in power but… lol
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      10-07-2021, 11:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerE36 View Post
I run 93 oct. I’ll log some data and return for an retune at some point. I’m not unhappy with the little bump in power but… lol
On 93 Octane the off the shelf maps add even more power 28%HP / 31%TQ
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      10-08-2021, 12:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerE36 View Post
Got the F10 dyno tuned today at Cedar Performance and just wanted some feedback on what the car actually put down at baseline and the end result. Car is stock and has 41k miles, installed new NGK 97506 plugs gapped at 0.022” and Eldor coils the day before tune.

Baseline- 355.9whp/334.9wft-tq
Final dyno- 438.7whp/405.1wft-tq

Even though it’s stage 1 I’m feeling a little disappointed in the numbers. Car pulls nicely though.
I feel ya..going through the same problems myself...about to post my nightmare
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      10-08-2021, 02:48 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by musclesmarinara75 View Post
I feel ya..going through the same problems myself...about to post my nightmare
Oh snap... lol
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      11-01-2021, 01:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerE36 View Post
Very solid advise, I’ll pick a morning when the AIT’s are in the low 60’s and do some pulls and data log it.
Did you ever get a chance to test this? Your car ran excellent on the dyno! I'd be really surprised if the car isn't faster than others with the same Stage One setup. I'd love to see some dragy times. I can help you find a datalogging setup that'll work well for you as well.

When we recapped the tuning session, we explained that your baseline was lower than our expectations as well, but considering the delta is on-par with any other "stage 1" tune out there, I'm happy with it.

One thing I'll note, is our tune actually makes power north of 6000 RPM, where as a lot of these other dyno sheets I see that "make more power", are making all the power at 5000 RPM, and only decrease from there.

Not sure why anyone wants a tune where peak power is outside of their car's shiftmap, especially when the power is ultimately "the same."

Ultimate, we found the limit on your car as you can tell in the graph when we increased the requests a bit on the last run, the car offset the gains by reducing timing. The only way with the same fuel to make more power would be to desensitize the knock tables. This can also be done, but this is how you blow up engines!

Also, I found this thread:

https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1507189

These graphs are pretty odd. I mean, for starters, many of them are in different correction factors, many of them are different dynos, many of them are different mods, different mods, different tunes. It's a 20 page thread comparing apples to oranges.

Really, your dyno sheet is cleaner/nicer than any sheet posted in that entire thread, which makes me proud of my tune!

If you'd like, I can give you the same basic "stage 1" ots flash that BM3 sells (more or less), that's heavy on midrange torque, and low on output above 6500, but that's not usually what people come to me for

Lastly, I'll leave you with these photos. This is your last dyno run, compared to a client we did about 5-6 days after yours. We set his up with essentially the exact same tune file, obviously with a few specific adjustments.

The ambient conditions are essentially the same, actually a bit favorable in your end, but his car made more power than yours.

The second picture is of your baseline, compared to his baseline. 380whp vs 355whp, with very different torque(boost) curves, bone stock software, same ambient conditions, same dyno. Unfortunately as you can see there's an RPM Glitch, so the graph looked funny with the X-Axis on RPM. I also attached one with X Axis Speed.
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      11-01-2021, 07:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CedarPerformance View Post
Did you ever get a chance to test this? Your car ran excellent on the dyno! I'd be really surprised if the car isn't faster than others with the same Stage One setup. I'd love to see some dragy times. I can help you find a datalogging setup that'll work well for you as well.

When we recapped the tuning session, we explained that your baseline was lower than our expectations as well, but considering the delta is on-par with any other "stage 1" tune out there, I'm happy with it.

One thing I'll note, is our tune actually makes power north of 6000 RPM, where as a lot of these other dyno sheets I see that "make more power", are making all the power at 5000 RPM, and only decrease from there.

Not sure why anyone wants a tune where peak power is outside of their car's shiftmap, especially when the power is ultimately "the same."

Ultimate, we found the limit on your car as you can tell in the graph when we increased the requests a bit on the last run, the car offset the gains by reducing timing. The only way with the same fuel to make more power would be to desensitize the knock tables. This can also be done, but this is how you blow up engines!

Also, I found this thread:

https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1507189

These graphs are pretty odd. I mean, for starters, many of them are in different correction factors, many of them are different dynos, many of them are different mods, different mods, different tunes. It's a 20 page thread comparing apples to oranges.

Really, your dyno sheet is cleaner/nicer than any sheet posted in that entire thread, which makes me proud of my tune!

If you'd like, I can give you the same basic "stage 1" ots flash that BM3 sells (more or less), that's heavy on midrange torque, and low on output above 6500, but that's not usually what people come to me for

Lastly, I'll leave you with these photos. This is your last dyno run, compared to a client we did about 5-6 days after yours. We set his up with essentially the exact same tune file, obviously with a few specific adjustments.

The ambient conditions are essentially the same, actually a bit favorable in your end, but his car made more power than yours.

The second picture is of your baseline, compared to his baseline. 380whp vs 355whp, with very different torque(boost) curves, bone stock software, same ambient conditions, same dyno. Unfortunately as you can see there's an RPM Glitch, so the graph looked funny with the X-Axis on RPM. I also attached one with X Axis Speed.
Dang I guess the photos didn't, post. I'm certainly happy with the tune after having it for a little time now. I'm hitting the torque limiter in second gear. I sent you an email asking if we can just reset the adaptive settings or just tune the transmission just let me know when you have time this month. I thought I could data log with my current OBD setup but I can't. What would cause two bone stock motors to have different torque(boost) curves?
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      11-02-2021, 08:01 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerE36 View Post
Dang I guess the photos didn't, post. I'm certainly happy with the tune after having it for a little time now. I'm hitting the torque limiter in second gear. I sent you an email asking if we can just reset the adaptive settings or just tune the transmission just let me know when you have time this month. I thought I could data log with my current OBD setup but I can't. What would cause two bone stock motors to have different torque(boost) curves?

You likely aren't hitting the torque limiter on a stage 1 tune. Theres folks running high 10s, low 11s (so an estimated 650-700 crank hp) not hitting torque limiters.
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      11-02-2021, 09:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
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You likely aren't hitting the torque limiter on a stage 1 tune. Theres folks running high 10s, low 11s (so an estimated 650-700 crank hp) not hitting torque limiters.
It consistently cuts out around 6100-6400 only at shifting from top of 2nd into 3rd.
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      11-04-2021, 06:57 AM   #16
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It consistently cuts out around 6100-6400 only at shifting from top of 2nd into 3rd.
You definitely wouldn't be hitting the limiter at 6k+ rpm. Your peak torque is at 4.6k tapering down all the way to 350wtq by 6k rpm. You've got an unrelated issue. Might be overboosting or something of that nature. Get logs.
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      11-04-2021, 11:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BettyFkinCrocker View Post
You definitely wouldn't be hitting the limiter at 6k+ rpm. Your peak torque is at 4.6k tapering down all the way to 350wtq by 6k rpm. You've got an unrelated issue. Might be overboosting or something of that nature. Get logs.
Going in on monday for xHP tune. I'll see if I can find a way to data log.
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      11-05-2021, 12:14 AM   #18
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Still having problems with your numbers eh??... fucking so frustrating
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      11-05-2021, 01:40 AM   #19
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Still having problems with your numbers eh??... fucking so frustrating
I'm meeting Matt on Monday, we will see how it runs after the XHP flash. If it still cuts out in second gear ill have the tune revised
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      11-05-2021, 10:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I'm meeting Matt on Monday, we will see how it runs after the XHP flash. If it still cuts out in second gear ill have the tune revised
For what its worth, most people (on n63 platform) put up slower numbers with xhp vs stock. While its possible xhp fixes whatever issue you might be having (my guess would be overboost or load targets etc) you'll likely end up slower overall. It will feel jerky and more aggressive which people translate as faster, but when compared with actual numbers (draggy, 1/4 etc) it usually isn't. So then you end up with a slower car and more wear on the trans
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      11-12-2021, 12:57 PM   #21
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Ouch
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      11-20-2021, 05:43 PM   #22
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So I just my 550i I just ordered catless downpipes vrsf, and I’m gonna get an intake and charge pipes and meth kit. I was told to do all I could before I got the jb4 and did a tune but I’m wondering if it could cause me problems with a stand alone meth kit before I did the tune. I just don’t want to run into problems before I even tune. I could also just wait till I have everything and just get it all done at one time what do y’all think.
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