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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Professional Motorsport Racing Discussion (IMSA, DTM, Formula 1, Grand-AM, Le Mans, IRL, WRC, etc..) F1 2023: Japanese GP - Suzuka (Sep 24)
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      09-25-2023, 12:21 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
Not a fan of RUS either but I wouldn't switch with HAM after the way he did him twice during the race. Quick move towards him closing into T1 but well before entry wasn't cool. And then pushing him so far off the track that HAM couldn't even stay within the limits either - ridiculous. Dude is as dangerous as driving around SAR - but at least with SAR its lack of skill and not intentional.
When you've got teammate like Ham, who needs enemies?? I'm reiterating - Ham is NOT AT ALL a good wheel to wheel driver and borderline dangerous. Alo said it best I think last year when he said he doesn't know how to race unless he's in front with no one around him.

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      09-25-2023, 12:25 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Killed by Death View Post
So, earlier in the week some member was saying how wrong I am about Sergio Perez

Where is Julio Iglesias now
I dunno if that was me, but I still like seeing him do well, and think a lot of people give him crap unnecessarily. I also have zero allegiance to him, just thought he's got a decent underdog story going, at least earlier this year.

His damage on lap one from Hamilton trying to take something that wasn't there for him to take put him at the back of the pack. Racing incident because it was lap one, but really, that was HAM's fault. The weird pit lane overtaking under SC penalty must have been frustrating as he gained absolutely nothing and didn't really "overtake" anyone as he was off track. Got in his head and tried pushing too hard after that... His incident with Mag was pretty bad, worse than the Albon incident last week. He overcooked it into the corner and Mag's late dive into the apex caught him off guard, but he should have expected it. The points on his license don't look good either...

If he had a decent showing in Suzuka, I think all would be fine, but now I wouldn't be surprised if they try Lawson in his seat for next year.
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      09-25-2023, 12:28 PM   #311
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Perez is trash. I think RB made him sit in his car that long for a punishment.
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      09-25-2023, 12:33 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by dfox View Post
I dunno if that was me, but I still like seeing him do well, and think a lot of people give him crap unnecessarily.
He gets a lot of crap indeed, but I don't think it's unnecessarily crap.
Pretty much all the crap I see about PER is regarding his performance, his racing results, and not from just one race, or even necessarily 1 year.

I think it's totally fair to judge a driver on his results, especially if it's a comparison made to someone who drives the exact same car.

We all like to see PER do well, so that's the only thing he has to do
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      09-25-2023, 12:34 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by M3WC View Post
Perez is trash. I think RB made him sit in his car that long for a punishment.
I didn't realize he was going to be able to serve his penalty after going into the garage - kinda thought they were going to send him back out on softs and see if he could set a fastest lap since he wouldn't need to do any tire management. Good on RB for knowing the rulebook.
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      09-25-2023, 12:35 PM   #314
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Perez is trash. I think RB made him sit in his car that long for a punishment.


A seat in the RB is currently a dream for pretty much every driver as that is supposedly the biggest chance they get on winning the WDC.
It must be very hard on PER himself that he's nowhere near Max race after race (year after year).
His dream to become WDC is more of a nightmare because he gets judged on his driving skills (he has exactly the same car and team as Max) where other drivers are of course also judged on that they drive a different, lesser car.
(that said, there are virtually no teams where the difference in drivers is this big, save maybe AMR and Williams.....So how do we look at Lance Stroll and Logan Sargeant...I think Checo is still pretty lucky in that regard )
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      09-25-2023, 02:09 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
When you've got teammate like Ham, who needs enemies?? I'm reiterating - Ham is NOT AT ALL a good wheel to wheel driver and borderline dangerous. Alo said it best I think last year when he said he doesn't know how to race unless he's in front with no one around him.
Do not disagree with any of this. Between having the most dominant car by far for years, crap teammates, and DRS he had such a long stretch of not having to use those skills that whatever he had earlier just kind of rusted away.

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Originally Posted by dfox View Post
I didn't realize he was going to be able to serve his penalty after going into the garage - kinda thought they were going to send him back out on softs and see if he could set a fastest lap since he wouldn't need to do any tire management. Good on RB for knowing the rulebook.
Man if the let him set fastest lap over Max somebody would have died...

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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post


A seat in the RB is currently a dream for pretty much every driver as that is supposedly the biggest chance they get on winning the WDC.
It must be very hard on PER himself that he's nowhere near Max race after race (year after year).
His dream to become WDC is more of a nightmare because he gets judged on his driving skills (he has exactly the same car and team as Max) where other drivers are of course also judged on that they drive a different, lesser car.
(that said, there are virtually no teams where the difference in drivers is this big, save maybe AMR and Williams.....So how do we look at Lance Stroll and Logan Sargeant...I think Checo is still pretty lucky in that regard )
As long as VER is there I'm not sure it's much of a dream spot for that 2nd seat. I'm not sure anyone is going to fair well against him in a car with those characteristics. Pretty unique to be able to go that much faster and have the best tire wear at the same time. And if one of your drivers is capable of that you have to develop in that manner. I do think some of the faster drivers would fair better than PER - but he was a pretty solid driver coming in too. Feel like some of these guys might not be too keen on the possibility of getting slapped around by there teammate. I do not think we see any of the "top" talents jumping ship to give it a try. They all like to praise how fast RB19 is but deep down they know VER is just as big a part of their success as the car.
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      09-25-2023, 02:19 PM   #316
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Marko apparently said of Checo, "He couldn't match Max's speed and just every thing went wrong. But we are confident of a strong comeback from him."

Reading between the lines, I'm guessing that means - if he doesn't turn shit around and have a strong comeback by the end of the year, he's gone.
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      09-25-2023, 03:14 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
As long as VER is there I'm not sure it's much of a dream spot for that 2nd seat. I'm not sure anyone is going to fair well against him in a car with those characteristics. Pretty unique to be able to go that much faster and have the best tire wear at the same time.
Why wouldn't it be a dream spot? That it doesn't work out for PER doesn't mean it won't work out for another driver. Sure VER is an excellent driver, especially the last 2 years both his performance as consistency have been out of this world, but I can't predict what happens if NOR becomes his teammate, or ALO, or LEC, or SAI, or RUS, or HAM, or PIA, or even ALB.
Those are in my book all very good drivers, and some have proven that they are world class material, and I believe they can certainly give Max a run for his money. Better than PER, that's for sure in my book.
ROS did beat HAM at some point and who knows what would have happened if ROS didn't quit after he became WDC. There's no telling he wouldn't have beat HAM the next 3 years or not.
Who says the RB19/RB20 won't even fit another driver's driving style even better.
I don't think the RB19 characteristics are such that only Max can handle those. If there's such a thing, I believe it's more that Checo can't handle them.
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      09-25-2023, 03:40 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Why wouldn't it be a dream spot? That it doesn't work out for PER doesn't mean it won't work out for another driver. Sure VER is an excellent driver, especially the last 2 years both his performance as consistency have been out of this world, but I can't predict what happens if NOR becomes his teammate, or ALO, or LEC, or SAI, or RUS, or HAM, or PIA, or even ALB.
Those are in my book all very good drivers, and some have proven that they are world class material, and I believe they can certainly give Max a run for his money. Better than PER, that's for sure in my book.
ROS did beat HAM at some point and who knows what would have happened if ROS didn't quit after he became WDC. There's no telling he wouldn't have beat HAM the next 3 years or not.
Who says the RB19/RB20 won't even fit another driver's driving style even better.
I don't think the RB19 characteristics are such that only Max can handle those. If there's such a thing, I believe it's more that Checo can't handle them.
Checo did beat Max twice this year. His performance as of late has sucked, basically since he crashed in Monaco. The evolution of the RB19 has definitely moved out of Checo's wheelhouse. He was more in touch earlier in the season but that's fallen off. Whether it was the crash in Monaco that shook him up, or just dynamic changes in the car that he can't come to grips with, he's off.
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      09-25-2023, 04:20 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
Do not disagree with any of this. Between having the most dominant car by far for years, crap teammates, and DRS he had such a long stretch of not having to use those skills that whatever he had earlier just kind of rusted away.



Man if the let him set fastest lap over Max somebody would have died...



As long as VER is there I'm not sure it's much of a dream spot for that 2nd seat. I'm not sure anyone is going to fair well against him in a car with those characteristics. Pretty unique to be able to go that much faster and have the best tire wear at the same time. And if one of your drivers is capable of that you have to develop in that manner. I do think some of the faster drivers would fair better than PER - but he was a pretty solid driver coming in too. Feel like some of these guys might not be too keen on the possibility of getting slapped around by there teammate. I do not think we see any of the "top" talents jumping ship to give it a try. They all like to praise how fast RB19 is but deep down they know VER is just as big a part of their success as the car.
Spot on in every regard!

I agree the skill level is dropping off, but the fact that he was never really able to drop guys like Ros or Bot in the way Max drops Checo says all you need to know about him considering neither of those teammates were that good.

I have a feeling it would be a steep, steep learning curve to come to RB and try to not only learn that car, but also be anywhere near as quick as Max. The only guy in F1 who I think has a similar driving style is Lec, but I think drives too much on the edge and has less margin for mistakes as a result (similar to Rus).

I do think most realize Max is the differentiator with the RB. The ones who don't just don't want to admit it.

Crazy - another record for Max this weekend. Now holds the record for the most consecutive poles to wins at 13. Previous holder was Sch with 12.
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      09-25-2023, 04:34 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfox View Post
Checo did beat Max twice this year.
One was due to Max having technical difficulties in qualifying (broken driveshaft), and one was due to Checo having luck to pit in a safetycar session whereas Max has just pitted before that.

So how many times did Checo beat Max on drivers merit? (Max was only 5sec behind in Saudi Arabia and only 2 sec behind in Baku)
However, Checo did his job in those races, to be there as the backup if Max potentially encountered problems, just as Max was there to be a backup if Checo encountered problems (all other races this year )

On another note:
Apparently (this is a rumor) LAW agreed to RB/AT's proposal to get a guaranteed seat in 2025, so another extra year as reserve driver.
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      09-25-2023, 04:56 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfox View Post
Checo did beat Max twice this year. His performance as of late has sucked, basically since he crashed in Monaco. The evolution of the RB19 has definitely moved out of Checo's wheelhouse. He was more in touch earlier in the season but that's fallen off. Whether it was the crash in Monaco that shook him up, or just dynamic changes in the car that he can't come to grips with, he's off.
Consistency in top performance is key.
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      09-25-2023, 05:20 PM   #322
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Quote:
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Max has to be the most overrated driver in all of F1 history - bar none.
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It's wild to me how anyone can look at Max and consider him "elite"
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I think Max wouldn't even win half his races if he had Bottas or Russell as his teammate - and to be honest, I don't think either is anything other than average.
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still the same petulant barely above average racer that he's always been.
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Max is garbage and has taken 7 years to "develop" into a "champion" after being selected for the win in 2021 and having a faster car in 2022/2023.
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Kid was trash, always was and always will be.
"What makes F1’s Max Verstappen so fast? ‘An extremely rare natural talent’"
The Athletic - Luke Smith - Feb 27, 2023
https://theathletic.com/4256443/2023...-redbull-fast/

That was February 2023. As we know, Verstappen is now on his way to clinch yet another WDC. Still many years ahead of him offering the opportunity to clinch more. And Hamilton showed that even a 5-year WDC hiatus (2009-2010-2011-2012-2013) does not prevent a top driver to clinch more titles in a career (6 more WDC for Hamilton after his 2008 WDC).
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      09-25-2023, 05:29 PM   #323
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I didn't realize he was going to be able to serve his penalty after going into the garage - kinda thought they were going to send him back out on softs and see if he could set a fastest lap since he wouldn't need to do any tire management. Good on RB for knowing the rulebook.
I believe Checo's car was damaged and they fixed it first in the garage then let him out to do a lap and serve his penalty.
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      09-25-2023, 05:52 PM   #324
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I believe Checo's car was damaged and they fixed it first in the garage then let him out to do a lap and serve his penalty.
Yeah, that's what happened for sure, I just didn't think that was allowed after being pulled from the race for damage... seems silly to let a non-competitive driver back on the track to serve a penalty just to DNF again, but it's technically allowed by the rulebook and RB confirmed with FIA before they sent him back out... so all legit. Just seems like a risk to everyone else on track for no benefit. I mean, it would have been better if FIA just said hey, you caused an accident, so penatly, but that accident caused you to DNF, so it's not going to be served by a grid penalty at the next race...

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      09-25-2023, 05:56 PM   #325
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Consistency in top performance is key.
Can't argue with that, but Max is the top performer. Checo isn't and was never intended to be.
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      09-25-2023, 06:10 PM   #326
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Yeah, that's what happened for sure, I just didn't think that was allowed after being pulled from the race for damage... seems silly to let a non-competitive driver back on the track to serve a penalty just to DNF again, but it's technically allowed by the rulebook and RB confirmed with FIA before they sent him back out... so all legit. Just seems like a risk to everyone else on track for no benefit. I mean, it would have been better if FIA just said hey, you caused an accident, so penatly, but that accident caused you to DNF, so it's not going to be served by a grid penalty at the next race...
It does seem a strange rule and I agree that would be the solution not to let him out again and forget the time penalty in the next one...but that's too easy for the gov body
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      09-25-2023, 07:29 PM   #327
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Perez is trash. I think RB made him sit in his car that long for a punishment.
Yes . Actually it looked like that
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      09-25-2023, 07:52 PM   #328
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It does seem a strange rule and I agree that would be the solution not to let him out again and forget the time penalty in the next one...but that's too easy for the gov body
After the *sprintrace* in Qatar , MAX is officially the 2023 F1 World Champion !

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      09-25-2023, 08:14 PM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
"What makes F1ís Max Verstappen so fast? ĎAn extremely rare natural talentí"
The Athletic - Luke Smith - Feb 27, 2023
https://theathletic.com/4256443/2023...-redbull-fast/

That was February 2023. As we know, Verstappen is now on his way to clinch yet another WDC. Still many years ahead of him offering the opportunity to clinch more. And Hamilton showed that even a 5-year WDC hiatus (2009-2010-2011-2012-2013) does not prevent a top driver to clinch more titles in a career (6 more WDC for Hamilton after his 2008 WDC).
#UnLeashTheLion !!!
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      09-25-2023, 08:43 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
"What makes F1ís Max Verstappen so fast? ĎAn extremely rare natural talentí"
The Athletic - Luke Smith - Feb 27, 2023
https://theathletic.com/4256443/2023...-redbull-fast/

That was February 2023. As we know, Verstappen is now on his way to clinch yet another WDC. Still many years ahead of him offering the opportunity to clinch more. And Hamilton showed that even a 5-year WDC hiatus (2009-2010-2011-2012-2013) does not prevent a top driver to clinch more titles in a career (6 more WDC for Hamilton after his 2008 WDC).
Yes - that was February of this year, when his car was already dominate from last year. Max isn't fast and posting a puff piece on it wont change it.

He's been a average driver in a above average car - it took him 7 years, a whole former Mercedes team, favorable rules and literally the fastest car on the grid for him to win anything.

He has the body of a 12 year old boy and I'm supposed to believe that his fitness regimen that required 7-8 years to win a WDC is why he's "good"
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