[NorCalAthlete]

Originally Posted by LaKuan

Bmw needs to build a mid engine car. None of the M cars are "supercar" material. Yes they are fast and can take on anything but something to compare against a lambo or a ferrari.

Start with the i8.

Stretch it to accommodate the S58.

Add one or two of the electric motors from the i4 M50.

Give it ~50-100 miles of electric-only range, the rest of the time it's just a power dump for ~650-700 hp.

Trim whatever weight they can to keep it under 2 tons.

Update the interior but for the love of god give us tactile buttons still and don't force everything onto a giant touchscreen. I could maybe see minimizing the driver's dash in favor of more HUD focus, but keep the ID7 style infotainment in the middle, and make it more angled and symmetrical-ish. Ditch the shifter in favor of push button gears like the Lambos have (huracans and aventadors / revuelto, not the Urus). Keep climate control and door locks and emergency flashers as their own dedicated buttons at a minimum.

Oh and none of this passenger display bullshit Porsche and everyone is doing now. Unnecessary.

Give it x drive if possible for launching and hard driving (yeah yeah purists blah blah, at modern power levels it's just flat out better and safer).

Target a 7 minute (or lower) 'ring time.

Keep the price under $200k.

I think something like that would do extremely well.

[Audio Fan]

Originally Posted by marksandygill

Imagine the sports car the M Division could make if they weren't pumping out 2.8ton SUVs...🤦

That would be sad. I love my X5M, which makes for a super fun daily driver with road trip comfort on curvy mountain roads as well as the interstate. I’ve had seven M3/4s over the past 24 years from E36 to F82, and I feel like the SUVs might be the most impressive thing BMW does. Sometimes it’s fun to see how well physics can be fought, especially when you want to drive a beast and bring your family along for the ride.

[zapp]

Took BMW a long time to beat the Camaro ZL1 1LE (6-Speed Manual!) 7:16

[MaX PL]

Originally Posted by zapp

Took BMW a long time to beat the Camaro ZL1 1LE (6-Speed Manual!) 7:16

CSL is 100 less HP and no aero.

The ZL1s time is nothing special considering it has 650HP + aero.

[Dasky_spas]

Originally Posted by Nahlem

Yeah but those 2.8 tons SUVs with M badges like it or not is what keeps the funding coming for cars like the CSL, as with Porsche their suvs are what makes the GT RS's cars coming.



What if just what if i am not implying anything but what if BMW is not trying to make a lightweight car to being a performer sense that recipe has already been done so many times before. What if BMW is trying to make a car like this CSL M4 with all the nannys of comfortable daily driving perform like a lightweight performance car without compromise probably hard to do sense you can't fight against physics but its fun to watch them try

Not saying they shouldn't do a lightweight one but again that is a very niche market

Anyways fun video to watch good to see they are doing some hard work to make this cars go.

I drove a super lightweight car over the weekend and it's arguably as fun as BMWs. It was a 2013 camry base lol. The thing was not safe at speed but it didn't have a ton of weight and it's so easy to feel on the twisties of North West nj. Bmw doesn't need to go race car style, they just need to reduce weight in a major way and get back to basics.

[LaKuan]

Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete

Start with the i8.

Thats what i originally thought they would come up with when i heard the i8, they had the chance there and didnt take it. Personally i would prefer a S63 from the F90 and put in bigger turbos for about 800 hp and 1000 tq stock with of course AWD. Thats it, no electric. Race cars and GT cars are not electric. Enhance the body and interior, keep it lightweight. At that point they could ask whatever they want, that would be enought to take down a 765lt and a SF90.

[NorCalAthlete]

Originally Posted by LaKuan

Thats what i originally thought they would come up with when i heard the i8, they had the chance there and didnt take it. Personally i would prefer a S63 from the F90 and put in bigger turbos for about 800 hp and 1000 tq stock with of course AWD. Thats it, no electric. Race cars and GT cars are not electric. Enhance the body and interior, keep it lightweight. At that point they could ask whatever they want, that would be enought to take down a 765lt and a SF90.

i8M....?

[LaKuan]

Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete

i8M....?

All of the "i" cars are electric. A new model would be ideal for a such car. Maybe the M9 GT.
The M4 GT3 costs about $530,000, and around 550 horses. The M9 GT could be a even better car.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by MaX PL

CSL is 100 less HP and no aero.

The ZL1s time is nothing special considering it has 650HP + aero.

To be fair though, the CSL was in Cup2Rs which didn’t exist when the ZL1 time was completed and are worth about 10 seconds on the N’Ring, and on top of that the ZL1 is 300 lbs heavier. Just equalling out tires the ZL1 should be low 7 min and either way you slice it that’s impressive especially considering it was a manual.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Err…. That must be with a Manthey kit or something? I’m pretty sure the GT4RS is between 7:04 and 7:05 but yeah still quite a bit better than the CSL. This is almost certainly down to much better aero.

Still hard to compare laps with different drivers in different cars on different days. The German car mag Sport Auto has the same driver and the times are much closer for that. Like a 1 or 2s difference.

Sport Auto is good and certainly a bit less on variables, but that just shows that the driver wasnt able to extract all the performance or the conditions were worse for one of the two. Based on a broad look at the times, it's clear to see the 4RS is a much quicker car. I think I recall it being 7.5 seconds faster at VIR Lightning Lap which is sub 2 min track and Hockenheim it's considerably faster, etc.

[zapp]

Originally Posted by MaX PL

CSL is 100 less HP and no aero.

The ZL1s time is nothing special considering it has 650HP + aero.

The special thing is that Chevy achieved this time years ago with a package that costs 60k less, had inferior tires (3Rs) and stick shift.

Also, BMW claims that the CSL ducktail generates "significant downforce".

Would be very interesting to see how much time the Camaro could find on the new Cup 2 R tires.

[MaX PL]

I agree on the value argument to some extent, but don't like it constantly used as an out for why performance x versus performance y. Theres a reason the BMW is more money. Sit in one. Daily one. Look at one. Step foot in a GM dealership and then a BMW dealership.

Also not sure why you guys are under the belief the 3R is inferior to the Cup 2 R. From everything I've read on rennlist that's not the case. You're not getting another 10 seconds on a Cup 2 R compared to a 3R.

[masd79]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Cayman GT4 ring time: 7:32
M4 CSL: 7:18

What?

Exactly, facts first

[r0wr]

Originally Posted by MaX PL

CSL is 100 less HP and no aero.

The ZL1s time is nothing special considering it has 650HP + aero.

Considering it cost less than an M3 and half as much as the CSL, I’d consider that pretty special.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete

Start with the i8.

Stretch it to accommodate the S58.

Add one or two of the electric motors from the i4 M50.

Give it ~50-100 miles of electric-only range, the rest of the time it's just a power dump for ~650-700 hp.

Trim whatever weight they can to keep it under 2 tons.

Update the interior but for the love of god give us tactile buttons still and don't force everything onto a giant touchscreen. I could maybe see minimizing the driver's dash in favor of more HUD focus, but keep the ID7 style infotainment in the middle, and make it more angled and symmetrical-ish. Ditch the shifter in favor of push button gears like the Lambos have (huracans and aventadors / revuelto, not the Urus). Keep climate control and door locks and emergency flashers as their own dedicated buttons at a minimum.

Oh and none of this passenger display bullshit Porsche and everyone is doing now. Unnecessary.

Give it x drive if possible for launching and hard driving (yeah yeah purists blah blah, at modern power levels it's just flat out better and safer).

Target a 7 minute (or lower) 'ring time.

Keep the price under $200k.

I think something like that would do extremely well.

Great thought …..theoretically. I just don’t know that the typical BMW buyer is going to choose that over the equivalent Porsche or exotic in/near that price range. I think BMW would shoot themselves in the foot building a car like that.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by r0wr

Considering it cost less than an M3 and half as much as the CSL, I’d consider that pretty special.

And the comparison tracks/lengths/times being mostly used/quoted here are dead wrong...

The ZL1 1LE 7:16 time is on the 2.8 KM track
The CSL times being mostly quoted here are for the 20.6 KM distance... You guys know that right? The 20.8 KM (BMW official) time for that day was 7:20

The new BMW official best CSL time is 7:18 for 20.8 KM, so in case I need to make this crystal clear...

In 2 max effort tries by BMW the best Ring time for the CSL, driven by a great pro racer, is still 2 seconds slower than the 2017 7:16 (20.8 KM) time for the manual 6-speed ZL1 1LE, driven by GM engineer Bill Wise.

Anyone saying that death-defying 6 year old ZLE time, by an engineer driving a 100% stock (except seat/harness) 2017 built $73K msrp 6-speed ZLE, is not impressive, has never spent a serious day lapping a track.

That being said, I'm sure with enough tries and alignment tweaks the CSL will eventually beat the ZLE 7:16. GM gave it one day and was happy with their great time and packed it in.

[r0wr]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

And the comparison tracks/lengths/times being mostly used/quoted here are dead wrong...

The ZL1 1LE 7:16 time is on the 2.8 KM track
The CSL times being mostly quoted here are for the 20.6 KM distance... You guys know that right? The 20.8 KM (BMW official) time for that day was 7:20

The new BMW official best CSL time is 7:18 for 20.8 KM, so in case I need to make this crystal clear...

In 2 max effort tries by BMW the best Ring time for the CSL, driven by a great pro racer, is still 2 seconds slower than the 2017 7:16 (20.8 KM) time for the manual 6-speed ZL1 1LE, driven by GM engineer Bill Wise.

Anyone saying that death-defying 6 year old ZLE time, by an engineer driving a 100% stock (except seat/harness) 2017 built $73K msrp 6-speed ZLE, is not impressive, has never spent a serious day lapping a track.

That being said, I'm sure with enough tries and alignment tweaks the CSL will eventually beat the ZLE 7:16. GM gave it one day and was happy with their great time and packed it in.

I think you’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. Im saying the ZLE is very impressive given everything you pointed out. Add to that the cost difference makes the CSL time unimpressive.

[jpdchicago]

Moot point comparing the ZLE to the CSL.
Very unlikely that anyone considering the CSL would even think about the ZLE as an alternative. Even if the ZLE was 10 seconds faster...
The GT3 is probably one of the only other cars the CSL buyer would even consider as a weekend car. And many own both.
Build quality does come into play…

[NorCalAthlete]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Great thought …..theoretically. I just don’t know that the typical BMW buyer is going to choose that over the equivalent Porsche or exotic in/near that price range. I think BMW would shoot themselves in the foot building a car like that.

I mean, you could say the same thing about the NSX, AMG GT, etc.

I think if BMW had something that could fill the gap between the M4 and a GT3RS, it would do well. Particularly with C8 corvette competitive looks and performance.

Like, just keep scaling things the same way the M4 vs C8 does.

I'm thinking about it like this:

From $75k-$100k, the M4 is awesome, but the C8 beats it in terms of supercar looks to go with the performance.

From $100k-$200k, you have the AMG GT, 718 higher specs like GTS or GT4, stripped down "poverty spec" 911s (if you're lucky, and not including dealer markups and crap), the NSX, R8 (maybe)(lower specs).

Again this is focusing on the sports aspect moreso than just overall "is there a car from this brand at this price point" otherwise we'd be including SUVs too. The M8 is great, but by all accounts too heavy / touring oriented moreso than performance, while the others listed are much more performance oriented (including the M4, IMO).

BMW simply doesn't have anything at the higher end to take jabs at other supercars. We might have supercar performance or close to it, but nothing in terms of supercar looks + performance.

With prices climbing steadily across the board for pretty much all models and all brands, it makes total sense to me to produce something like this before we're all forced into EVs anyway.

Additional note - while I like the idea of taking the S63 vs the S58, it IS bulkier and heavier (though I'm not sure by how much). So it makes more sense to pair the S58 with a hybrid spec ala McLaren P1 / Porsche 918 since you'd be able to keep the weight down a bit more with a brand that's already gotten pretty chunky.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Moot point comparing the ZLE to the CSL.
Very unlikely that anyone considering the CSL would even think about the ZLE as an alternative. Even if the ZLE was 10 seconds faster...
The GT3 is probably one of the only other cars the CSL buyer would even consider as a weekend car. And many own both.
Build quality does come into play…

You may be right about street car only crowd, but do you track your car? The ZLE is a true street legal track car. If you check Rennlist you'll find a long thread about how much the 911 and GT3 people respect and admire the ZL1 1LE. I know several people among the year-round track-junkie community here in So Cal with both ZLE and GT3. One guy has a GT3 Cup car, a ZLE, among other cars... and loves using his ZLE. He'll bring both in his dual level carrier. Several other guys with large collections who also have Ferraris, Lamborghinis, etc. This is true here in California where I track in advanced groups every 2 months, not sure how it is where you live in Chicago.

By "build quality" I'm not sure if you're referring to mechanical reliability or luxury and things like full leather and cool seats, I have not had a single defect or mechanical problem with my ZLE after 5 years of thrashing it on track (sample of 1).

If you were right and the ZLE was 10 seconds faster... and CSL buyers would not even consider buying that ZLE, seems like that would say something more about the CSL buyer priorities (in life) vs the relative true value of each car.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by r0wr

I think you’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. Im saying the ZLE is very impressive given everything you pointed out. Add to that the cost difference makes the CSL time unimpressive.

Sorry, I did understand you and the misunderstanding is my fault... I was trying to play off or build on your points. But by quoting you I definitely made it sound like I was directing some comments at you.

It was more about this comment by another poster:

"CSL is 100 less HP and no aero.

The ZL1s time is nothing special considering it has 650HP + aero."

In my opinion, the CSL lap time is VERY impressive. I'm just struggling with the misinformation about times, track length and resulting incorrect rankings in a few places including Wikipedia. It matters, but not that much I guess.

[jpdchicago]

[QUOTE=SFVM3;30474437]You may be right about street car only crowd, but do you track your car? The ZLE is a true street legal track car. If you check Rennlist you'll find a long thread about how much the 911 and GT3 people respect and admire the ZL1 1LE. I know several people among the year-round track-junkie community here in So Cal with both ZLE and GT3. One guy has a GT3 Cup car, a ZLE, among other cars... and loves using his ZLE. He'll bring both in his dual level carrier. Several other guys with large collections who also have Ferraris, Lamborghinis, etc. This is true here in California where I track in advanced groups every 2 months, not sure how it is where you live in Chicago.

By "build quality" I'm not sure if you're referring to mechanical reliability or luxury and things like full leather and cool seats, I have not had a single defect or mechanical problem with my ZLE after 5 years of thrashing it on track (sample of 1).

If you were right and the ZLE was 10 seconds faster... and CSL buyers would not even consider buying that ZLE, seems like that would say something more about the CSL buyer priorities (in life) vs the relative true value of each car.

I am sure the ZLE is a great track car, especially for the money. I have seen a number of great reviews. The same reviews were not so good in terms of quality of materials and fit and finish though.
Personally I like a car with great build quality and top notch finishes (plenty of leather, alcantara and carbon fiber) if I am going to use it for both track and road. I enjoy the smell and feel of materials as much as the performance. That is a personal choice and the ZLE does not have the type of fit and quality finishes I look for. It helps keep the ZLE at a more reasonable price which is not all that bad. Hard to beat the ZLE for the money. Great to have both options.…
I am planning to track the CSL on a regular basis. I belong to a private track and tracked my M4 GTS and a race spec E46 there a number of times.
Still have not given up getting a GT3 one day but it will be a manual and I am definitely keeping the CSL. The torque in that car is unbelievable.
The GT3 won’t even come close in terms of torque but is has the best engine sound around. Better start saving...