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      05-02-2022, 08:45 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf the Surf View Post
When I lived in Toronto (Bloor West Village) the vast majority of homes didn't have driveways or garages so street parking was what you had. How are you supposed to plug in your EV? A few people tried running extension cords from their homes, if they were lucky enough to get a spot that the cord would reach. Then the City stepped in and told them they couldn't do that and there were the disputes over parking spots.
Which is why i keep repeating, the true challenge here is public charging and a) who is paying to install it b) who is paying to maintain it and c) who is paying to update it when in 5 years new charges shave 30% off the time to charge?

Thi sis way, way, way harder than building a battery powered car and seems to just not be a discussion point amongst EV evangelists. Again, this is why i see hybrids effectively winning the day.
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      05-02-2022, 09:35 AM   #46
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Well I didn't say that so nice try twisting my statement. You do need to understand a bit of engineering to understand my position. Your assumptions are very limited.

If you have an active lifestyle such as going skiing, hiking, camping, biking, EV can be more inconvenient than ice. It is not ev's fault but rather lack of infrastructure.

Also, do you know how many people live in condos and townhomes and can't charge at home?

Let's take my dd e90 and compare to any ev. I can park it anywhere 12 mo a year in FOUR season climate, start it up and go ANYWHERE without worrying whether I'd be able to recharge it. I can cruise at 80 mph all day long and get gas anywhere within 5-10 mins. I can go skiing at -10C, park it all day, and drive back with min impact to the range.

The ev's today are still very primitive machines. Their simplicity should be an advantage and the cost should be lower than ice. Carrying ~500lb battery is primitive tech. I would consider ev at $25-30k only as a commuter vehicle with 200-300 mi range.

Is 9800lb e Hummer mature ev tech? Don't think so.

I do give Tesla credit for developing ev vehicle that has limited usage and pushing the ev tech fwd but it will be another 20y before infrastructure and modern ev tech is available to majority of population. Again, need to understand engineering of ev's AND infrastructure.

Now, imagine if you compare ev's to bmw 328d (euro 320d) or Jetta tdi?

How about work trucks pulling a small trailer like landscapers? Would they buy it?
You are literally making my point for me. No, someone with a trailer wouldn't buy it, they would buy a truck, because that's the right tool for the job. I own a 32' trailer and I also own a truck to haul it around. There are PLENTY of people who probably have no reason to own an EV and in fact it may be a pita for them to do so. Like you said people in apartments or homes where they don't have a charger in the garage (our home in NC is an example). People who need to tow shit, people who travel cross country all the time and only have one vehicle, people who only care about performance.

Again my point is none of that makes it a "bad" vehicle. It may be a bad vehicle for THAT person but not in general. For me it was fantastic. Never had any issues with mine. I only used the 120v charger in my garage 99% of the time and I only charged it to around 80%. Always had enough range to do everything I do on a daily basis. My longest drive is up to my in-laws about an hour away, no problem doing that trip on my 80% charge with plenty left over. I'm also personally a fan of tech and for the most part I love the tech in the car. I thought I would miss things like apple carplay, but I didn't.

I also don't think everyone is going to have an EV in a couple of years, if they did we would be really fucked. I think ICE vehicles will be with us for a loong time and I will continue to own both to suite my needs.
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      05-02-2022, 10:23 AM   #47
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Can't recycle lithium batteries, they are dead weight and will pollute the planet no end. The next generation is sleepwalking onto a trap door over misinformed governments.
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      05-02-2022, 01:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Not really a good comparison. Look at the adoption rate of ICE over horses from late1890s to the 1920's (25 years) vs. the adoption rate of EV in the past 25 years. ICE in that Era had huge advantages over horses. Rural, you could go much further distances, in town, horse exhaust stuck around a lot longer than CO2. EV offers no advantage convenience/cost to ICE to make the switch.

EV people tout the charge-at-home advantage compared to ICE. The reason ICE people do not recharge at home is because THEY DON'T HAVE TO. Public ICE recharging is completely convenient.
The world is dynamic but the pt is there and it's a relevant one since it's in the same industry...it must've been a pita trying to figure out where to refuel back then. I'm sure way back then they didn't have crazy insidious gas lobbyists intentionally curtailing progress either, for example.

Anyway, you know my position from my earlier post so while I laugh at retrogrouches and know it's inevitable, I'm realistic too and don't think that the tech has plateaued anywhere close yet.
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      05-02-2022, 04:01 PM   #49
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And oh by the way who is going to pay for all of this public charging wattage, assuming the infrastructure is built? The days of free EV recharging are not going to last forever. TBH the free (to me) energy is one of the biggest draws of an EV for me presently.
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      05-02-2022, 04:11 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
And oh by the way who is going to pay for all of this public charging wattage, assuming the infrastructure is built? The days of free EV recharging are not going to last forever. TBH the free (to me) energy is one of the biggest draws of an EV for me presently.
You get free charging? I dunno about other brands of EVs but at least with the Tesla you have to pay for charging, unless you have one of the early cars that came with free lifetime supercharging, in which case I would imagine Tesla foots the bill. I have seen a couple of "free" chargers here and there, typically slow chargers offered by the business/shopping plaza and I would imagine they are also paying the bill for that.
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      05-02-2022, 04:27 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Can't recycle lithium batteries, they are dead weight and will pollute the planet no end. The next generation is sleepwalking onto a trap door over misinformed governments.
Huh? Where do you get your information?

Lithium batteries can be recycled, it is just extremely complicated and expensive to do so.
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      05-02-2022, 05:03 PM   #52
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      05-02-2022, 05:06 PM   #53
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      05-02-2022, 09:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
You get free charging? I dunno about other brands of EVs but at least with the Tesla you have to pay for charging, unless you have one of the early cars that came with free lifetime supercharging, in which case I would imagine Tesla foots the bill. I have seen a couple of "free" chargers here and there, typically slow chargers offered by the business/shopping plaza and I would imagine they are also paying the bill for that.
Off the top of my head, I know of the Taycan, Etron GT, Etron, and ID.4 that come with free charging for 3 years at EA stations.
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      05-02-2022, 11:56 PM   #55
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I'll enter the fray to share my experience after adding an EV to the fleet in December. I'm a fan, but would not recommend a full switch unless you have access to a private level 2 charger. Our Volvo Recharge has a 230 mile range, is built like a vault and is actually fun to drive. It really hit the sweet spot for us, but I would not recommend without an ICE also due to lack of infrastructure. Having said that it has opened my eyes to EVs.
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      05-03-2022, 07:55 AM   #56
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The current issue of C&D has an article on their 40,000 mile summary of the Tesla Model 3. Worth checking out.....
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      05-03-2022, 08:05 AM   #57
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Electric Bus in Paris Spontaneously Explodes:
.

.
Last Friday, a video surfaced online of French public transport operator RATP's bus bursting into flames within seconds in Paris. The fire illustrates the dangers of EVs. Luckily the bus wasn't crowded, and passengers were able to exit quickly. AFP notes that all 149 electric buses manufactured by Bollore SA have been taken off the road. "The bus driver immediately evacuated all the passengers. Nobody was hurt," RATP said. The city's fire department said the blaze took 30 firefighters to extinguish.

This isn't the first time one of these buses caught fire. On April 4, in central Paris, another bus experienced a similar explosion. In both incidents, there were no injuries. The video is shocking because it shows only a few seconds for the lithium batteries to ignite, giving occupants inside the bus barely any time to exit. First responders in many parts of the world aren't adequately prepared nor trained to handle lithium battery fires amid the proliferation of EVs on streets and highways. It takes +20 tons of water to extinguish a Tesla vehicle battery fire. A combustion engine needs, on average, 3 tons of water to extinguish. Not so ESG-friendly are EVs?
.
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/wa...ously-explodes

Here's the video of the Paris EV bus fire.
.
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      05-03-2022, 08:16 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
And oh by the way who is going to pay for all of this public charging wattage, assuming the infrastructure is built? The days of free EV recharging are not going to last forever. TBH the free (to me) energy is one of the biggest draws of an EV for me presently.
Check out the spending requests from our current administration. There is no such thing as free anything. Who is paying for all of the "free" EV infrastructure? You and I. Not a fan.
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      05-03-2022, 10:11 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZL9M2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
And oh by the way who is going to pay for all of this public charging wattage, assuming the infrastructure is built? The days of free EV recharging are not going to last forever. TBH the free (to me) energy is one of the biggest draws of an EV for me presently.
Check out the spending requests from our current administration. There is no such thing as free anything. Who is paying for all of the "free" EV infrastructure? You and I. Not a fan.
You realize the petroleum industry gets subsidies too, right?
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      05-03-2022, 10:59 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
Electric Bus in Paris Spontaneously Explodes:
.

.
Last Friday, a video surfaced online of French public transport operator RATP's bus bursting into flames within seconds in Paris. The fire illustrates the dangers of EVs. Luckily the bus wasn't crowded, and passengers were able to exit quickly. AFP notes that all 149 electric buses manufactured by Bollore SA have been taken off the road. "The bus driver immediately evacuated all the passengers. Nobody was hurt," RATP said. The city's fire department said the blaze took 30 firefighters to extinguish.

This isn't the first time one of these buses caught fire. On April 4, in central Paris, another bus experienced a similar explosion. In both incidents, there were no injuries. The video is shocking because it shows only a few seconds for the lithium batteries to ignite, giving occupants inside the bus barely any time to exit. First responders in many parts of the world aren't adequately prepared nor trained to handle lithium battery fires amid the proliferation of EVs on streets and highways. It takes +20 tons of water to extinguish a Tesla vehicle battery fire. A combustion engine needs, on average, 3 tons of water to extinguish. Not so ESG-friendly are EVs?
.
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/wa...ously-explodes

Here's the video of the Paris EV bus fire.
.
Get your marshmallows out kids
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      05-03-2022, 11:00 AM   #61
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You realize the petroleum industry gets subsidies too, right?
Sure, but the petroleum industry is extremely diverse. There are literally thousands of products that rely on petrol, the infrastructure we are talking about is solely for the purpose of supporting EVs.
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      05-03-2022, 11:01 AM   #62
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The current issue of C&D has an article on their 40,000 mile summary of the Tesla Model 3. Worth checking out.....
just watched/read it on their website. its interesting to compare how the f80 stacked up against the giulia and model 3 on their long term testing (40k miles). The biggest gripe with the f80 was the stiff ride and creaks/noises coming into the cabin. The alfa spent most of its life at the dealer and the tesla needed a new $2500 battery after it refused to start one morning.

TESLA - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

GIULIA - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...bility-update/

F80 M3 - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...rap-up-review/
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      05-03-2022, 12:05 PM   #63
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The alfa spent most of its life at the dealer and the tesla needed a new $2500 battery after it refused to start one morning.
Rear-motor assembly, I would imagine a battery pack is a lot more than $2500.
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      05-03-2022, 12:41 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Also, EVs don't yet work for enthusiasts who value sound, shifting gears, light weight etc. However even most "enthusiasts" just think 0-60 = sports car. It's just a small contingent of us who really "get" it. We see a corner and think how we can let the car rip through it whereas the avg person gets afraid of a corner and just wants to floor it from a light. Even then, with long commutes and high gas prices, even the biggest die hards will eventually give in.
Surprised I haven't seen more posts here regarding this...

Yeah, the infrastructure and charging methods may be lacking for EVs currently but I can guarantee if the demand is there, it will be figured out. EVs are practical in their own way. So are ICEs, in theirs.

But I don't buy 'practical'. I want something I enjoy driving because I love to drive. And yeah, I've been in the Teslas. I know they are quick, and handle well. But they are completely devoid of any driving character. The fact that there's an option for the thing to drive itself says it all. It wasn't designed with those who love the art of driving in mind.

I want sound. I want gears. I want that mechanical feedback when I'm pushing it hard through a mountain pass. Hell, I even want it when I'm picking my daughter up from school. Riding along with the cruise control set on the interstate on long trips is about the only scenario I can think of where I really wouldn't care. But long trips aren't really the shining point of EVs.

If practicality and logistical concerns are the only issues, you could probably argue in circles between ICEs and EVs and come up with no clear winner. But until they can come up with an EV that actually feels like driving something real, I'm holding out as long as I possibly can.
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      05-03-2022, 01:05 PM   #65
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Quote:
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Surprised I haven't seen more posts here regarding this...

Yeah, the infrastructure and charging methods may be lacking for EVs currently but I can guarantee if the demand is there, it will be figured out. EVs are practical in their own way. So are ICEs, in theirs.

But I don't buy 'practical'. I want something I enjoy driving because I love to drive. And yeah, I've been in the Teslas. I know they are quick, and handle well. But they are completely devoid of any driving character. The fact that there's an option for the thing to drive itself says it all. It wasn't designed with those who love the art of driving in mind.

I want sound. I want gears. I want that mechanical feedback when I'm pushing it hard through a mountain pass. Hell, I even want it when I'm picking my daughter up from school. Riding along with the cruise control set on the interstate on long trips is about the only scenario I can think of where I really wouldn't care. But long trips aren't really the shining point of EVs.

If practicality and logistical concerns are the only issues, you could probably argue in circles between ICEs and EVs and come up with no clear winner. But until they can come up with an EV that actually feels like driving something real, I'm holding out as long as I possibly can.
When the government starts outright banning vehicles, the already incredibly small demographic of enthusiast car buyers will be even less relevant to car manufacturers.
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      05-03-2022, 03:39 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
You realize the petroleum industry gets subsidies too, right?
Remind us again how much the Fed and states tax gasoline?
Oh, that's a whole other issue, isn't it. Currently, EVs are giving back very little if anything for road usage. States and the Fed are going to need to figure this out quickly. Especially in areas like here in Austin and coastal CA where EVs are everywhere.
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