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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 What the heck happened to BMW? |
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05-01-2024, 01:50 PM | #89 | |
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That said, there isn't much you can do to electric steering racks. I run my tires at a lower pressure (2.2 bar front, and 2.0 rear) which definitely helps with the steering (and handling), but I am not sure what else one could do other than stiffen various bushings. I've not driven a modern car with an electric rack that feels all that connected. |
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05-01-2024, 01:53 PM | #90 |
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I agree for the most part, aside from the Macan or Cayenne being any kind of 5 series competitor. SUVs are a different category and don't compete on dynamics due to fundamental issues in the chassis that can't be resolved.
BMW is definitely making some of the best vehicles it has ever made. I find most of the line up quite attractive, both in and out. |
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05-01-2024, 02:17 PM | #91 | |
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05-01-2024, 02:39 PM | #92 |
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I thought my G82 was certainly a better all around car than all my F8x models. For me however, the slight boost in performance (had a model launch Comp, not Xdrive model which is where the generational performance boost is felt) for me didn’t make up for what I just couldn’t get past in the looks department. G82 was much better planted than even my current F82 CS, it was nice not having the wheels spin through the first two gears. The car also hid the weight penalty well and the S58 was of course fantastic.
Sort of why I’m so sour. I liked the way the car drove, but to me no matter how fast it was it could never outrun the ugly exterior. For me the interior was a tossup, I prefer the analog gauges and layout of the F8x, but the G8x carbon buckets are incredible. Once again subjective, and I can certainly understand why some like the newer cars. |
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05-01-2024, 03:33 PM | #93 | ||||||
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2) I'm not talking about the F80. I wasn't a big fan of the F80. I'm talking about the G80. Quote:
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I agree that some of the rawness has been lost with all this refinement and luxury. BMW also seems to be saving some of the rawness for its limited models (M4 CSL, M5 CS, etc). But all cars are trending that way in general. I do wish my M3 had a bit more rawness to it. The chassis is superb, the steering is actually pretty good (for a modern BMW), it's got tons of power, and it's actually one of the lightest cars in its class (the RS5 and the C63 are significantly heavier). I've actually replaced some of the rubber bushings with stiffer bushings to get a more direct mechanical feel. I'm in the process of replacing the transmission carrier bushing with a stiffer one as well to get crisper shifting with a more gated feel. So I understand the want for that rawness. But to say that BMW is getting worse while its competitors are getting better is just a ridiculous statement.
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05-01-2024, 03:38 PM | #94 | |
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For me, it's obviously objectively an excellent car, and I happen to like the looks - after a few mods - stock I'm not a fan of it, the stance is atrocious and accentuates the grill in all the wrong ways.... but once you fix the stance, get an aftermarket grill and some wheels, I think it looks insanely good and has tons of road presence. Although some people might call that putting lipstick on a pig
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05-01-2024, 04:01 PM | #95 |
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@ Mirob & wtwo3 -
1) It finished last in dynamics by far. 21/25 for fun to drive while others got 23 and 25, and 49 out of 60 on dynamics while others got 51, 55, and 55. 2) G80 is more competent than F80 and receiving better praise, but didn't solve any of the disconnected feeling IMO. 3) That Car Magazine UK rewiew, along with the Motortrend one, don't cite much about the specifics of the cars against eachother. They mention the Cadillac, or Alfa, had more charisma and were fun but there's not much direct feedback which makes it tough to judge. I also rate them and Motortrend as more of the casual drivers while C&D, EVO, and Road&Track are higher quality. And to me, it still doesn't matter if bmw is getting worse or competitors are better. They simply don't have the uniqueness and prowess that they have previously, and that comes down to the feedback they provide. Look at this quote from EVO in the giulia vs m3 comparison: "So that’s all very neat then. Except that this is evo, so… ‘From a professional road tester’s perspective the BMW trumps the Alfa, but as an enthusiast I know that in my heart I love the Giulia,’ says Dickie, glancing fondly at the Giulia, streaked in unseasonal road salt. Jordan calls the big red one ‘joyful’ despite giving the nod to the M3 overall ‘by a hair’. The appeal of the M3 grows on you, and will probably continue to do so over time, but having the Quadrifoglio in your life is to possess something that feels truly exotic, that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside every time you see and hear it, that brings the task of driving for fun truly alive. You’ll always look for the long, interesting way home in the Alfa, in a way you only occasionally would in the others. That’s not just the hallmark of a great car, it’s the stuff of an evo legend. Once again, I stand by my statement. I never said BMW was bad. I never said they didn't make objectively fantastic cars. Could your G80 absolutely cook an E90 M3? Could an M340i absolutely beat down on a 335i? Could an XM lap faster than a Cayenne S? Yes, Yes, and Yes. It is not about numbers and speed and road tests where I'm criticizing BMW, it's in feedback. And if you don't think so, you should probably spend more time in an E chassis platform I said the below to start the thread, and I maintain it despite your efforts to show how M3's have won comparison tests or competitors are bad etc etc: "OP is right. BMW is still a good manufacturer but not at all special like they once were - that specialness was from the feeling, not from numbers." Last edited by scotthilly; 05-01-2024 at 04:02 PM.. Reason: spelling |
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05-01-2024, 04:03 PM | #96 | |
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05-01-2024, 04:31 PM | #97 |
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This is what I agree with. My point is that to say BMW is getting worse while competitors are getting better is a ridiculous statement to make.
You still can have specialness in BMW - I find my G80 to absolutely be special and gives me joy every time I take it out. Fun factor is there 10/10. The ability to row my own gears, paired with a twin turbo S58 which builds power progressively and with the satisfaction similar to a naturally aspirated motor, and steering/handling which inspires me to want to take corners aggressively. In fact I just picked up my daughter from school and took the M3 out and it was an absolute delight. I also previously owned an m340i and that was more consistent with what you're describing - it's fast but not necessarily "fun". But then again, nothing else in the same class as the m340i is any more fun.
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05-01-2024, 04:39 PM | #98 | |
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Fair enough man, enjoyed the banter! I will say I do really respect that bmw puts a stick in the g80. And despite some of my complaints - I'm someone who wants a manual sedan from within the last 10 years. My only options are the M3, and the Blackwing twins. So while I laud competitors like Alfa, they aren't going the extra mile. I have a friend with a 330i thp msport, which, aside from the engine, is identical to an m340i. It is nowhere near as satisfying as honestly even the F chassis cars. I have some, but not tons of time in a G80 though I actually did enjoy the F80 I drove a lot. I think, and I'm curious how you feel, that where BMW suffered the most is in the basic cars. That c&d test where a 430i xdrive vs a stinger and a5 and the 4 series got last... brutal. I love this article so much - https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-65-1-roa0813/ - and perfectly encapsulated my thoughts. I highly reccomend this video on youtube too (Zygrene, the creator, is awesome) - . You used to have a base 325i or 330i and it'd be still be a good sport sedan. I'm now in the place where I choose Hyundai products (g70) or base ct4's on a 330i.. and it makes me a bit depressed. And that's where my frustration lies too... okay, the g80 is good, and it's 90k. Normal-ish people can afford a 3 series, but you've got to really be doing well to make an M3. And that's sad. |
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05-01-2024, 04:43 PM | #99 | |
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05-01-2024, 04:54 PM | #100 | |
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05-01-2024, 04:58 PM | #101 | |
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I actually don't mind the steering in my G31, generally speaking--with one condition applied: with proper tire pressure, there is decent feel for an e-rack, and it's weighty even in comfort. At sticker pressures it feels overly quick and nearly devoid of any road feedback. That said, the pressures they recommend are needed to meet fleet emissions goals. |
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05-01-2024, 05:01 PM | #102 |
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05-01-2024, 05:24 PM | #103 | |
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I hope you enjoy your car! |
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05-01-2024, 06:55 PM | #104 | |
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05-01-2024, 07:55 PM | #105 | |
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05-02-2024, 06:17 PM | #106 |
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05-02-2024, 08:40 PM | #107 | |
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I even still prefer it over our new G05 X5. It's appropriately weighted for what it is, has great on-center feel and precision, and instills confidence which you absolutely need when piloting a full-sized SUV down the road. I really don't like the variable weighting of the G05 rack, which constantly leaves you guessing. It weights up nicely at speed and for turns, but can occasionally feel a bit nervous or darty on center in sport, and too loose or relaxed in comfort. I hate the low speed lightness, and wish it would just stay more weighted, but this is what Asian market customers want, so BMW is trying to cater to both markets at the same time. So all of these different steering modes in the BMW, none of which really feels quite right. My Suburban has one mode, which feels perfect and never leaves you guessing. I've read the same about some Mercedes vehicles getting it just right in one mode also. Porsche is uncompromising and says go lift some weights if you can't turn the wheel, and they're not really mass marketed like BMW's are. Chevy isn't selling too many cars in China or Europe, so they weight them for 'Muricans. BMWs are fully global mass marketed cars, and so focus group compromise steering is what we get these days. I'm over it. It is what it is, and I can just go take my E93 for a spin too. Just got summer tires put back on it finally.
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05-02-2024, 09:13 PM | #108 |
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Only in a sad sense: it's FWD just as the current 1 Series. If FWD wasn't something I'd ABSOLUTELY hate to return to I'd (have) love(d) to consider a recent(/current?) Mini JCW (3 door, MT, of course) but "luckily"(?) I had an even more insurmountable reason to skip that.
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05-03-2024, 11:35 AM | #109 |
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Scott, a small correction. BMWNA has not dropped “The Ultimate Driving Machine”. That tagline came from Bob Lutz, of General Motors, when he spent time at BMW. BMW’s tagline in Europe has always been “Sheer Driving Pleasure”. I think this might explain some of our frustration. Americans like bold statements like “ultimate”, but I don’t think BMWAG has ever viewed themselves in such a stark way. I think they are much more focused on driving pleasure than Americans like to think.
Waqas, I hope you won’t be offended, but I have to call you out just a little. I think your lack of long time experience with owning BMWs is showing a little. I don’t think anyone will argue that the E46 ZHP was the pinnacle for the 3er. The E90 was objectively better in the vast majority of ways and its suspension was really good, but it lost some of the dynamism of the E46, especially the ZHP. If it hadn’t been for the big improvements with the N52 over the M54 I would not have chosen to give up my ZHP and move to the E90 330i. Also, the significant improvements in safety technology were a big reason I wanted an E90. The E90 is dynamically superior to the F30 in every way. For me the difference isn’t large enough that it bothers me, but it’s definitely there. For me the enhancements like the LCI F30 iDrive and other technological features make it worth it. Plus, the B58 and the ZF8. I would not have left my 2006 330i for the N55. The B58 was the key factor for me. That and the suspension and steering improvements that came with the LCI. I would not own a pre-LCI F30. As you know I was not pleased with the static 704 sport suspension on the G20, even though it has been favorably compared to the E90 sport suspension. My theory is the G20 sport suspension paired with xDrive makes it harsher than the E90 sport suspension. Maybe one day I’ll get to drive a rwd G20 M340i with the 704 and see if my theory is correct. I have to mention one other thing about the G20. It is just too big for a 3er for me. Until the G20 I have always felt like the 3er proportions were pretty much perfect. I think I’m more forgiving of the EPS, because my E90 had Active Steering, so I was already used to having some additional assistance. I can tell you the first couple of days after I got my E90 from my ZHP I definitely noticed the difference and I wasn’t sure about it, but I adapted really quickly. Anyway, having said all this, BMW’s EPS has been panned by EVERYONE who claims to be an enthusiast from day one. We’re at the point today where it is slightly less panned than it used to be. I remember from the very beginning the comparisons to Porsche’s EPS. The universal comment was that Porsche’s EPS was much better and proved that BMW could do better EPS if they wanted to, but they were choosing not to in order to appeal to a broader consumer market. I think that is absolutely true. And one specific comment about the G20 EPS. In the beginning the car rags were saying the 330i steering was better than the M340i steering, because it has a different rack and the M340i rack had to carry over from the F30 because of space constraints with the I6 motor. I absolutely disagree with this. I would not own a regular G20 330i, because of the steering. Even in sport mode it feels like a Buick! I haven’t had the opportunity to drive an M Sport G20 330i, so maybe that would be a better experience. I may be putting words in Scott’s mouth, but I don’t really think his point is that BMW has gotten worse compared to their competitors, but more that the competition has finally “figured out” the formula and caught up to BMW in many ways and BMW has, for whatever reason, “chosen” to remain “stagnant”. I think a lot of the improvements by competitors have to do with improving technology and decreasing engineering costs to do what BMW engineers were doing for years. Also, I think we are very close to the engineering limits of how much can be done with driving dynamics, so it’s much harder for BMW to remain leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. So, those are a few of my thoughts.
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05-03-2024, 01:55 PM | #110 | |
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