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      06-15-2019, 11:54 AM   #1
Surly73
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Those with coilovers: related questions

Hi all:

I have KWv3s on the way for my 535 X-Drive. They have to come from Germany so I'm waiting a while. In the meantime I have a few questions for those who have done coilovers.

1/ what did you end up finalizing on for sway bars? The coilovers should take out a lot of roll, squat and nosedive from what I've seen. I'm curious whether stock, non-sport, X-Drive sway bars will be sufficient once again. Right now I'm running M5 front and H&R 20mm rear.

2/ Did you end up changing sway bar endlinks to shorter ones? Not sure that it's necessary. I'm probably dropping 1" maximum.

3/ I got OE strut tops from FCP on the way too so that I can assemble the package with fresh strut hats. What did you end up doing?

4/ What did you select for ride height? I have 19" style 351Ms for summer and 18" style 237s for winter. I'm looking to have it not looked jacked up in the summer, I'm not looking for slammed, and my largest wheels are 19s. I'm looking for that "perfect" look that older option 704 RWD cars had. The RWD option 704 F10s are, I think, only 10mm lower than my stock ride height. I might be looking to lower up to 1" equally all around (20-25mm). I would like easy alignments, no weird camber problems, etc...

5/ Any other advice?
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      06-16-2019, 09:03 PM   #2
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1) still ruuning the stock away bar which with any lowering upgrades improves handling. In your case with the thicker bars less sway and body roll

2) stock end links. I didn't know they make a shorter version so I'm not sure if that will make any improvements. Wouldn't hurt to try

3) I had to use my OEM top hats so I had to disassemble it and add it to the KW's.

4) my ride is slammed! You can pretty much set to whatever ride height looks good to you. Had the alignment running pretty much flat to give me longer life on the tires since I'm running an aggressive tire setup
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      04-22-2020, 08:37 PM   #3
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Revisiting this thread for any more comments on sway bars that folks are combining with their coilovers. From everything I've read I can expect the v3s to take out a ton of body roll, nose dive and butt squat so the need for stiffer sways will be reduced. I'm currently running M5 front, H&R 20mm rear, and there's still some undesired side effects from that.

Also I'm still thinking about ride height. The catch being that with KWs adjusting the ride height also adjusts the pre-load, so making it higher will also make it stiffer, which is just a weird combination. I did the math to convert all the ride heights I can get my hands on to spindle-to-fender (BMW measures differently now).

Stock F10 AWD ride height is basically 384mm/370mm.
Option 704 F10 RWD ride height is 374mm/360mm - a whole 10mm lower.
The Alpina B5 is 379/365 - 5mm lower
The M5 has different fenders but is 382/372, while the M5 ZCP is 372/362.

I was initially thinking I'd do -10 or -20mm. I still need to drive in heavy winters, I don't want weird tire wear and I don't want to be scraping everything.

It appears that KW's mid-range, TUV-approved target is 340mm/340mm or -44mm/-30mm. So that's 1.5-1.75". Holy smokes. Those familiar with KW instructions know that they give a min/max range on the height adjustment that they recommend, but their listed target always seems to be the same (340mm in my case).

Not sure what I should do - if I should go 2/3 up the recommended range and try for less drop. Or go for dead center in the recommended range and see what I get. Perhaps delay my corner balance and alignment and play around a bit first?

I don't want to be "high and stiff" with weird handling - I'm doing this pretty much ALL for the handling and not the looks. The stock ride height looks "acceptable" with 18s but with the 19s on for the summer it does look jacked up.

Anyways - welcoming conversations on ride height and sways....
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      04-22-2020, 08:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly73 View Post

Anyways - welcoming conversations on ride height and sways....
i know for fact the new strut bar is doing wonders for my spirited driving. car just doesn't have that body roll as much. i'm sure for those with upgraded sway bars adding this bar would also help
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Last edited by lsturbointeg; 04-23-2020 at 03:53 PM..
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      04-22-2020, 11:59 PM   #5
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I'm on Megan coilovers and had H&R sways. Basically no wheel gap all around. Felt too stiff and felt too much on the road. Now back to stock sways and ordered the strut + 650i rear sway, and will likely soften the dampers.
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      04-23-2020, 03:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylverlee View Post
I'm on Megan coilovers and had H&R sways. Basically no wheel gap all around. Felt too stiff and felt too much on the road. Now back to stock sways and ordered the strut + 650i rear sway, and will likely soften the dampers.
that's what some of the feedback on aftermarket sways. but than again that's what most people are after
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      04-23-2020, 06:54 PM   #7
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I have KV3s and found the H&R bars to be way too hard and went back to OEM.
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      04-24-2020, 06:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiNorm View Post
I have KV3s and found the H&R bars to be way too hard and went back to OEM.
I found the H&R sways a little much without the V3s. I thought my current set up (M5 front / 20mm H&R rear) was free of side effects but I've been feeling them more lately. With the boaty stock suspension you can really feel that you're "bouncing" off the sways and getting rocking oscillations started. And the roads in my area aren't even that bad! (and my factory suspension isn't worn out)

I'm a little reluctant to go all the way back to *my* stock equipment - it was SO disconnected. As I've said in other posts, the car leaned before it turned. I think the average minivan has a more confidence inspiring stock ride. Of course maybe with the KWs it will be perfectly fine. In my case, the M5 front bar alone took out all of the unreasonable driver-observed lean but the handling is very out of balance (as expected). The 650i rear bar still wasn't large enough to balance the handling so I went to the H&R. I bought the full H&R kit instead of just the rear and I ran that for a week or two before concluding there were too many negative side effects for me.

In theory the KWs are going on today/tomorrow.

Still not positive what to do about my ride height target. They're pre-built right now with mid-range target.
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      04-26-2020, 10:35 AM   #9
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Even with the V3s set rather soft due to Chicago's crappy roads, my care corners like a skate board with the OEM bars. No body roll at all.

The H&R bars are so hard that they limit the independent movement of the suspension side to side, which is pretty harsh when one encounters a pot hole.

Good luck.
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      04-26-2020, 12:14 PM   #10
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Surly73 I'm really curious to hear how you enjoy the sway bars once you have the KW's installed. I've had the complete opposite experience from most people since installing my coilovers. On every other car I've owned, coilovers always made the car come alive. With the F10 it's made an improvement but the car still felt very numb, as if it needed to be stiffened up. I think this may be related to two issues:

1. I've recently found out the alignment shop that did my alignment after I installed my coilovers completed butchered it. I noticed some strange tire wear and when I was getting my oil changed last week, my mechanic was able to show me just how out of spec it was. This might also explain the tramlining problem I've been having. My plan is to get the car realigned and see if this helps bring out the "feel" of the car.

2. Since most coilovers don't come with shorter front end links, lowering the car changes the position/angle of the front sway bar (not sure if this is an issue with KW but it does occur with BCs). I'm still learning how this works but if I understood it correctly, when the end links move down it can affect the stiffness of the sway bar (I believe making it softer). Another member was explaining it more here:https://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1705204 . My plan is to order shorter front end links and see if this also helps improve the feel and stiffness.

Once that's done, my plan was to upgrade the sway bars if the car still felt the same. If you decide you don't enjoy the H&R sways let me know as I would be interested in purchasing them to try out on my car!
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      04-27-2020, 08:33 AM   #11
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The work is done. It dragged on long enough I left the sway bars alone at the moment instead of starting to swap those around. So now I have M5 front, 20mm H&R rear.

I have a theory that with the stiffer all-around coilover package the sways will be less influential on the overall handling and, therefore, (huge potholes aside) hugely negative effects of larger sways may be reduced. Phrased differently - if the car already leans less, the sways will play less of a role.

I'll see how things shake out. If I drop the rear H&R I'll be looking to sell and I see that you're "local" which may work out for both of us.
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      05-04-2020, 07:49 PM   #12
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This is why I went with Bilstein CO. You can do minimal drop and still have an adjustable suspension... An F10 is a DD not a track car... If i was doing a track car i would go for something smaller/lighter like a M235i, gut it, and start tweaking it... scariest ride i ever had was at a BMW CCA driving school and the instructor took me for a few laps in her miata that was a dedicated track car. It was stripped/gutted to metal with roll cage, two recaro seats, and sticky slicks. Scary fast and great on corners...
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      05-05-2020, 09:03 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luky View Post
This is why I went with Bilstein CO. You can do minimal drop and still have an adjustable suspension... An F10 is a DD not a track car... If i was doing a track car i would go for something smaller/lighter like a M235i, gut it, and start tweaking it... scariest ride i ever had was at a BMW CCA driving school and the instructor took me for a few laps in her miata that was a dedicated track car. It was stripped/gutted to metal with roll cage, two recaro seats, and sticky slicks. Scary fast and great on corners...
Plenty of F10's track their car.
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      05-05-2020, 04:17 PM   #14
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I guess people just come in here and post and don't read what we all post elsewhere cause granted, it is across various threads, have touched on all this:

I have BC coilovers BR model but they were all re-valued and upgraded by red shift. They are awesome. I'm also slammed. So low I had to cut the splash guards in front of the front tires and I go sideways into and out of my driveway.

I also have full H&R sway's front and rear

I also have shortened end links (look for the post) with a youtube video explaining how lowering your car effects this. I have before/after pics.

Overall I don't think it's "too much" but I also don't DD as I work from home, but either way, I would like it like this even as a daily... cause I like to haul and have fun. IMO if you bought a 5 series for comfort then don't touch it, I only bought it cause I had to have the ability to haul 5 people comfortably or I woulda got a 335is or one series.

You can't have a completely stock riding car and have it look like a race car, just won't happen. There are always trade offs. Lower your car, it will look better but it will be different.
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      05-13-2020, 06:04 PM   #15
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OK here's a related question. I've let my suspension settle for a couple of weeks. I have not booked alignment/corner balancing yet. I'm wondering about ride height.

Measured from the hub center, AWD F10s call for ~385mm front ~370mm rear - so 15mm lower in the rear than the front. I can't say I observed my vehicle looking like that, nor would I want it to. I do see some F10s look like they are dragging their butts though.

I was initially thinking I'd be happy with ~20mm drop. Although with KW height adjustment also affecting preload, I didn't want to end up "high and hard" because that would be....lame.

I built the coilovers on the bench in the middle of the recommended preload range and I was surprised my ride heights came out higher than I thought they would. As I measured tonight (center to fender):

LF 355 RF 360
LR 353 RR 350

I'm still thinking about whether I want to target ~355 or ~360 on the front. I was then going to raise the rear a little and see where I get and how it might change the way it drives. Just wondering what other people have done (other than the ground-scraping slammed folks).

I'm really interested in whether the corner balance process ended up with the rear lower again.... I'm wondering if it's speced like that because it's nose heavy and they're trying to equalize the weight a bit. Would it be bad to undo that....
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      05-13-2020, 09:42 PM   #16
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I can't offer much help as I fall under the ground-scrapping slammed folks lol, but if you're planning on getting corner balanced I don't know if it's worth the effort of getting the height super dialed in.

I'm unsure how it would apply with the F10 but I know back in my civic days, when I got the car corner balanced it lead to an uneven looking ride height. It wasn't super noticeable but if you did look at it in detail you could see the height difference (in my situation it was side to side, not front back).

Hopefully someone will provide their feedback but you may have to be the guinea pig on the corner balance impacts. I don't think most F10 owner care enough to get their car corner balanced. Maybe it's worth asking on the F10 M5 board?
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      05-14-2020, 08:35 AM   #17
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Well, thanks for offering the observations you have made

I spent a little time with the car last night. I softened the compression setting two clicks all around. On my short test drive I think this is more in line with what I'm looking for. I'm not sure how many clicks there are total, and where in the spectrum this puts me. I had no intention of going "full soft" or anything like that, but the initial settings were just a little harsh for me.

For ride height, I measured that each perch turn was ~2mm. I moved three corners up towards the 360mm RF. +2 turns LF RR +1 turn LR After dropping the car and rolling out on to the driveway, I didn't measure any difference. That was frustrating. I know that because it's preloading the spring each turn isn't going to get me 2mm but I expect some kind of change. I'll go measure in more detail and possibly adjust again.

I am not necessarily going to try to "nail" ride height, but I'm interested in change in feel, balance or handling as I change front relative to rear. Especially since the factory spec shows for rear lower than the front. (Plus, as I said, poll the community to see if corner balancing would just put it right back to dragging the rear end).
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      05-14-2020, 10:31 AM   #18
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Do you get an alignment anytime you change it that much? I find my rear is about .25 inches too low haha, but dont want to get it realigned.
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      05-14-2020, 12:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylverlee View Post
Do you get an alignment anytime you change it that much? I find my rear is about .25 inches too low haha, but dont want to get it realigned.
I haven't had my post-coilover alignment yet. I want to determine the broad brush strokes on height first.

That being said, there isn't very much that's adjustable on the F10 chassis. Front toe, rear toe and camber (limited adjustment).
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      05-14-2020, 03:40 PM   #20
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If you're going through the effort, I would recommend you reset the preload on all your bushings at the new ride height.

My drop is a little more extreme than yours (probably around 3.5") but I already have some rear bushings that are starting to tear due to me never reseting the preload of them at this new height. For context, I've only put about 10-15k km on the car since the coilovers have been installed
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      05-15-2020, 10:12 AM   #21
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I prob dropped about 3" too. How do you calculate how much to adjust the preload? I've always been told to just keep the existing pre-loads haha.
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      05-15-2020, 12:04 PM   #22
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I should clarify, maybe preload isn't the correct term. You just don't want your bushings to be constantly binding.

It's pretty straight forward. You loosen up the bolts where you have a bushing that is bonded to an inner metal sleeve. Jack up that corner so the suspension is loaded up (you want to get it around your new ride height) and then re-torque all the bolts you loosened.

From the factory the bolts that go through bushings are tightened down at the ride height. Now that you've lowered the car, the position of the suspension arm changes. Since the arm or suspension is tightened against the metal sleeve in the bushing, the sleeve in the bushing now twists causing way more load on the bushing (placing it in a binding position). Which will cause it to fail early.

Hopefully that makes sense?
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