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2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 F10 Technical Topics Wheels / Tires / Suspension / Brakes Compiling some F10 535 sway bar info
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      10-19-2020, 12:23 PM   #1
burro_blasta
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Compiling some F10 535 sway bar info

Thanks to all the folks that helped me in the other thread. This is my first foray into suspension stuff so I’ve been doing a lot of searching...I had to piece together a bunch of info on sways from a bunch of threads and also had to call H&R and Eibach to confirm stuff, so thought I’d try to give back a bit and compile it all here. If this muddies the waters with any contentious info lmk and I’ll correct it or edit it out.

Thickness
Stock: 24mm front/14mm rear
M5 front: 29mm at the ends, but 26mm in the middle
650i rear: 16mm
(M5 rear doesn’t fit, so people that are using OEM to upgrade use M5 front + 650 rear)
Eibach and H&R: 30mm front/20mm rear

Xdrive vs. RWD
Confusing because Eibach and H&R only list RWD as compatible. I called both, they said that it probably means they haven’t tested an xdrive but there’s nothing about AWD that means they need special sways as long as the RWD versions fit. Countless comments from people here saying all the above bars fit on either RWD or xdrive.

H&R at ~$650 vs. Eibach at ~$450
Seem identical - same thickness, from what I can tell neither are “adjustable” (multiple mounting holes). My best guess at price difference is because H&R made in Germany and Eibach made in USA.

Install
Unlike F30, very straightforward (a “no-brainer” to some). Supposedly much easier if suspension is unloaded at least a couple inches and, in the rear, if the exhaust is taken down from hangers and a bolt removed (thanks Sylverlee, below). I’ll update after I put my Eibachs on in a week or two. Torque specs I’ve found:
Front end link: 75-90 ft lbs range but nothing exact (or 65 nM per n3985, below)
Rear end link: 30 ft lbs
Bushing mounts: 16 ft lbs

Feedback
Seems that Eibach and H&R are very stiff - too stiff for some folks' DDs - and the M5/650i might be a better middle ground for those who still want some DD comfort. Myself, I'm excited for my Eibachs to arrive because I don't have a long commute where I need that kind of comfort.
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Last edited by burro_blasta; 10-21-2020 at 11:50 AM..
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      10-19-2020, 01:22 PM   #2
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Perfect, thanks for putting this together. I've been considering the Eibachs as well. I'll be interested to see how you feel. Every bit I've feedback I've seen, they really make a difference.
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      10-19-2020, 02:19 PM   #3
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Had to move my exhaust out of the way for the rear. That made it much faster.
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      10-19-2020, 02:43 PM   #4
burro_blasta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylverlee View Post
Had to move my exhaust out of the way for the rear. That made it much faster.
Like, just detaching where it hangs?
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      10-19-2020, 03:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burro_blasta View Post
Like, just detaching where it hangs?
Yeah, and one more bolt deeper in to bring it down more.
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      10-19-2020, 03:27 PM   #6
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The Eibach sway bars are not adjustable but are xDrive compatible.

Front end link should 65 nM

Also be wary of anyone complaining their sway bars made the car "too stiff". Sway bars affect side to side weight transfer not the efficacy of the shocks and springs.

Low chance they didn't install the end link with suspension loaded and high chance they are correlating wrong sensation to cause.
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      10-19-2020, 03:32 PM   #7
burro_blasta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n3985 View Post
The Eibach sway bars are not adjustable but are xDrive compatible.

Front end link should 65 nM

Also be wary of anyone complaining their sway bars made the car "too stiff". Sway bars affect side to side weight transfer not the efficacy of the shocks and springs.

Low chance they didn't install the end link with suspension loaded and high chance they are correlating wrong sensation to cause.
That 65 nM front torque lines up with this, which is apparently wrong:
https://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1139411
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      10-19-2020, 03:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burro_blasta View Post
That 65 nM front torque lines up with this, which is apparently wrong:
https://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1139411
Torque needed to remove a bolt/nut does not 100% equal original tightening torque. Rust, contaminants, etc all make removal harder.
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      10-19-2020, 03:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n3985 View Post
Torque needed to remove a bolt/nut does not 100% equal original tightening torque. Rust, contaminants, etc all make removal harder.
I didn't get the impression it was wrong only because it took extra torque to remove them...I've seen that 70-90 ft lbs listed a few times by others but no real source given. Sucks newtis is down. Where did you get 65 nM?
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      10-19-2020, 03:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burro_blasta View Post
I didn't get the impression it was wrong only because it took extra torque to remove them...I've seen that 70-90 ft lbs listed a few times by others but no real source given. Sucks newtis is down. Where did you get 65 nM?
65 nM has been the standard BMW torque spec for front end links since E30.
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      10-20-2020, 07:29 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n3985 View Post
The Eibach sway bars are not adjustable but are xDrive compatible.

Front end link should 65 nM

Also be wary of anyone complaining their sway bars made the car "too stiff". Sway bars affect side to side weight transfer not the efficacy of the shocks and springs.

Low chance they didn't install the end link with suspension loaded and high chance they are correlating wrong sensation to cause.
I'm one of the people who has said something like this, and I assure you that I am not confused about the role that bars play in ride and handling. I believe what I said is that with the 30mm fronts installed "I would not want it one iota stiffer". I'm not sure why you feel "stiff" is an appropriate word to describe vertical suspension characteristics but is somehow the completely wrong word to describe cross-body characteristics.

With stock X-Drive non-adaptive suspension and the 30mm front bar, I observed rocking oscillations in every day driving conditions (eg. imperfect pavement, turning right into a store driveway where left/right front wheels drive over the cut curb at different times) and other evidence of left/right being tied together too tightly. My head would be bobbled rapidly left/right every time I pulled into the grocery store parking lot.

The suspension was "bouncing off the bars" too much (for my taste anyways, and I like a firm car). It actually detracted from perceived performance. The rear 20mm bar causes no detriments and I left it on, but I made a step back in firmness to the M5 front bar. This combination substantially improved balance too, dialing things more towards neutral.

Now, that being said, I have not put the 30mm front bar on for a test drive since I put my coilovers on this summer. With tighter coilover suspension helping with body control from the outset those side-to-side oscillations may never start. I've read lots of comments from folks who feel no need for any sway bar upgrade of any kind after fitting coilovers. If you're fitting these largest bars (30/20) to non-factory suspension that is stiffer, you might not notice any of the negative things I've mentioned since your car is tighter from the outset.

Why I did not rush out and reinstall the 30mm front bar - since I put the coilovers on I've observed more understeer if anything (but only in some conditions - I could write a whole long post just on this). If I stiffen the front more it will make any understeer I'm observing worse. I wanted to do a big swap party one weekend and figure things out to balance the car best but haven't been driving all that much and there's always been other things more important to do.

TBH, I'm also a little concerned about manufacturer insistence by both H&R and Eibach (at least at the time that I purchased) that they are NOT for X-Drive cars. They seem to fit fine, but I have this nagging feeling that maybe they know something consumers don't know and perhaps on the X-Drive front suspension under high load the front bars have caused some kind of damage or make contact with something they shouldn't under high load. Not sure on that, just a feeling, and at my age those feelings sometimes prove to be right. If they could sell the same product to more people why wouldn't they?

At any rate, I own pretty much all the combinations of bars that fit this chassis and I've tried them all at some point. One day I'll settle down, pick a set and sell the rest.
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      10-20-2020, 08:03 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly73 View Post
I'm one of the people who has said something like this, and I assure you that I am not confused about the role that bars play in ride and handling. I believe what I said is that with the 30mm fronts installed "I would not want it one iota stiffer". I'm not sure why you feel "stiff" is an appropriate word to describe vertical suspension characteristics but is somehow the completely wrong word to describe cross-body characteristics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by burro_blasta View Post

Feedback
Seems that Eibach and H&R are very stiff - too stiff for some folks' DDs - and the M5/650i might be a better middle ground for those who still want some DD comfort. Myself, I'm excited for my Eibachs to arrive because I don't have a long commute where I need that kind of comfort.
OP said stiff in his post and I was suggesting to take differing opinions with a grain of salt.

Everyone have different levels of sensitivity to NVH therefore caveat emptor is the suggested mentality for modifications.
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      10-20-2020, 12:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly73 View Post
TBH, I'm also a little concerned about manufacturer insistence by both H&R and Eibach (at least at the time that I purchased) that they are NOT for X-Drive cars. They seem to fit fine, but I have this nagging feeling that maybe they know something consumers don't know and perhaps on the X-Drive front suspension under high load the front bars have caused some kind of damage or make contact with something they shouldn't under high load. Not sure on that, just a feeling, and at my age those feelings sometimes prove to be right. If they could sell the same product to more people why wouldn't they?
Agreed, I still have an eyebrow raised about this.

A guy I talked to at H&R said he and a coworker tried to put e90 RWD sways on the coworker's e90 xdrive...they couldn't because the sways didn't fit, and he seemed to have the similar shrug of "but if they did fit, I guess it's fine right?"

Maybe they don't think there's much of a 5 series xdrive grocery getter market for sways to make it worth testing? But weird for both Eibach and H&R to not list xdrive. Who knows.

FWIW ECS lists them fitting a bazillion F series models, but that doesn't mean they're harmless: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-eibach-p...-20-022-01-11/
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      10-20-2020, 02:15 PM   #14
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[QUOTE=Surly73;26818917]

The suspension was "bouncing off the bars" too much (for my taste anyways, and I like a firm car). It actually detracted from perceived performance. The rear 20mm bar causes no detriments and I left it on, but I made a step back in firmness to the M5 front bar. This combination substantially improved balance too, dialing things more towards neutral.

Same. H&R felt "stiff" in the sense that every road imperfection sent turbulence through the cabin and steering wheel. Had it without coilovers, and then with coilovers. I run a 16mm 650i x-drive sway bar in the rear now. Would be interested in picking up a 20mm if someone ever sold it separately at a decent price.
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      10-20-2020, 04:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylverlee View Post

Same. H&R felt "stiff" in the sense that every road imperfection sent turbulence through the cabin and steering wheel. Had it without coilovers, and then with coilovers. I run a 16mm 650i x-drive sway bar in the rear now. Would be interested in picking up a 20mm if someone ever sold it separately at a decent price.
Well, then I suppose I won't be in a huge hurry to run out and mount up the 30 Maybe I'll get to testing some of this in the spring. I would still be game to try it with the KWs.

I'm also thinking about trying the original front bar for balance reasons though. I wonder how much of the lean would be taken out by just the KWs.
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      10-20-2020, 04:17 PM   #16
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In my experience, the Eibach bars are so stiff that independent suspension action is comprised. A pot hole on the left front would shake both sides of the car on Chicago's bad winter roads. The M5 bars were better, but still too stiff. I am now running KW V3s with the stock bars and the car is wonderful.

Good luck.
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      10-26-2020, 12:23 PM   #17
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Put my Eibachs on over the weekend. Easy access to everything (as expected) and was easy to snake the bars in/out of place without having to move anything else (bit of a pleasant surprise, at least for the rear bar).

The only surprise is I nearly lost an hour - an hour filled with annoyance and anxiety - dealing with the rear bar's bushing brackets. The brackets really didn't want to fit around the bushings, so bad that I thought they gave me the wrong bushings as first. I had all sorts of clamps trying to get the bushing seated deep enough into the bracket and then also pinching the bracket together sideways because the bracket bolt holes were lining up a good 1/2" or so too wide. A long process of clamping and alternating the tightening of the front/back bolts until I finally got it lined up and in there. Scary because it was a situation ripe for cross threading but luckily all's well that ends well. Doing it again, I would try clamping them bushings in there both direction and letting the clamps settle in for some time before going to mount the bar. The front bar brackets are heavier duty and I was able to get the bushings into the mounts by hand and the holes lined right up also because, unlike the rear, the heavier duty brackets didn't flex to stretch for the bushings at all.

After all the torque spec back and forth I realized the point others made that it's heavy duty hardware and you just need to give it hell and do the ol "guttentight."
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      10-26-2020, 12:38 PM   #18
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My 2 cents: I did H&R's and they were not 650, I think I paid 400?

I like them - Stiff ride for the win!!!!
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      10-26-2020, 12:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrowBMW View Post
My 2 cents: I did H&R's and they were not 650, I think I paid 400?

I like them - Stiff ride for the win!!!!
Yea looked like some of you guys got a helluva deal from that website, even they had them listed for about $600 now I think and that was the lowest I've seen. Eibachs from tirerack arrived pretty quick for $455.
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      10-29-2020, 03:05 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burro_blasta View Post
Yea looked like some of you guys got a helluva deal from that website, even they had them listed for about $600 now I think and that was the lowest I've seen. Eibachs from tirerack arrived pretty quick for $455.
What did you tighten the end links to? Was so hard for me to get a wrench in there, I had to use a small automatic wrench that prob only got me 20lbs.. feels firm though.
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      10-29-2020, 03:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylverlee View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by burro_blasta View Post
Yea looked like some of you guys got a helluva deal from that website, even they had them listed for about $600 now I think and that was the lowest I've seen. Eibachs from tirerack arrived pretty quick for $455.
What did you tighten the end links to? Was so hard for me to get a wrench in there, I had to use a small automatic wrench that prob only got me 20lbs.. feels firm though.
Maybe it's bc I was on jackstands/suspension unloaded, but I had no issues having room for the wrench. I gave it hell, plenty tight whatever it was.
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      10-29-2020, 04:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burro_blasta View Post
Maybe it's bc I was on jackstands/suspension unloaded, but I had no issues having room for the wrench. I gave it hell, plenty tight whatever it was.
damn good idea. I had it on race ramps, maybe that's why I had such a pita to fit the bar in.
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