[PepMo]

Originally Posted by top ramen

I'm just using my stock intake. Trying to figure away to make the m5 airbox work. Probably be a while because i got to take care of my new born that just arrived last week.

Great mod anyways and Congrats on your newborn! I will try this inlet mod to see what it will do for me. Thanks for sharing this post

[PepMo]

Originally Posted by BrowBMW

Read what I posted… 100 wgdc at only 20 psi?

I will be starting to sell my intakes here soon… look what my turbo is making with this intake at 21 PSI!!! Gotta feed that turbo!!

Can you show what it makes from 6K RPM? I can't make more than 20 psi after 6K. I can hit 26 psi around 3800-5500 and it starts to taper off after that.

[PepMo]

How much will you be selling your intakes for? Does it require any cutting of frame? Do you have a build thread of the intake?

[top ramen]

Originally Posted by PepMo

Great mod anyways and Congrats on your newborn! I will try this inlet mod to see what it will do for me. Thanks for sharing this post

Please, share once it's installed. Would like to see your result since you're running PS2 turbo.

[PepMo]

Originally Posted by top ramen

Please, share once it's installed. Would like to see your result since you're running PS2 turbo.

I would but it will probably take me months to do it. I'm thinking of selling my car to make room for a new project.

[BimmerHausPerformance]

Originally Posted by PepMo

How much will you be selling your intakes for? Does it require any cutting of frame? Do you have a build thread of the intake?

Right now I would sell them for 300 plus parts. I have to build each one. No cutting, just slight heating of some plastic to get the 3" intake tube behind the grill, so all reversible. Parts are about 300. It includes a MAF harness extension, the heat/shield scoop, everything.

I am dragging my feet on it cause I don't like the 'home made' look of it so I am considering getting some prototypes done and getting them manufactured off shore which would bring the price down quite a bit.

You can hear it here:



And this is what it looks like out of the car:



If you go through my posts there are drive by's with it as well.

[BimmerHausPerformance]

I got snow here right now but as soon as I can I'll get you some logs. We are still working on the tune.

[PepMo]

Originally Posted by BrowBMW

I got snow here right now but as soon as I can I'll get you some logs. We are still working on the tune.

Do you have a 3rd gear log up to 6K RPM?

[Unspec]

Originally Posted by BrowBMW

You aren't actually getting 30 pounds of boost into the motor. Based on the logs you were getting throttle plate closure because you're over boosting, which can be a good thing if you get it tune properly. I didn't see a channel for manifold pressure which is after the throttle plate. That's what it's letting into the motor. The throttle plate acts as a control so that you don't shove too much boost into the motor and what happens is then it will start to close if you are over boosting and all that pressure is backed up into the charge pipe and you get 30 pounds of boost in the charge pipe but not 30 pounds of boost flowing into the motor. It's a common misunderstanding when people say that they hit X pounds of boost. I always like to look at logs because then you can see where they're reading the boost from and what kind of boost you can actually hold to red line. Depending on how you were logging and what the driving conditions are you can put your motor under a lot of load to artificially produce boost but if you go from a dig wide-open throttle that will typically give you a true reading of what kind of boost you can hold to red line.

If you're making more boost this is a good thing I would just recommend a custom tune to take advantage of what you can now make.

It doesn't seem normal for boost target to be at 30psi. Do you have any insight into why it would set the target to 30psi for, effectively, no reason?

[BimmerHausPerformance]

Originally Posted by Unspec

It doesn't seem normal for boost target to be at 30psi. Do you have any insight into why it would set the target to 30psi for, effectively, no reason?

I would thing the only way you could target 30 would be due to a custom tune.

[Unspec]

Originally Posted by BrowBMW

I would thing the only way you could target 30 would be due to a custom tune.

Right but that's my question. Top ramen is only on stage 1, yet their datalog shows a target of 30psi with the upgraded inlet

[BimmerHausPerformance]

Originally Posted by Unspec

Right but that's my question. Top ramen is only on stage 1, yet their datalog shows a target of 30psi with the upgraded inlet

If you look at the logs, the first one is version 40.001 and the 2nd one is version 40.009 so the before and after is on two different tunes :-/

Hardware will never change target boost!

[Unspec]

Originally Posted by BrowBMW

If you look at the logs, the first one is version 40.001 and the 2nd one is version 40.009 so the before and after is on two different tunes :-/

Hardware will never change target boost!

It's a newer version of a stage 1 tune, but it's still stage 1. That's what I'm wondering: stage 1 tunes will never set a boost target of 30psi. So unless the tune is broken and is requesting a dangerous level of boost, something is up with that log.

[BimmerHausPerformance]

If stage one is targeting 30 PSI I'd kick BM3 in a split second. That is lazy tuning... It's not "dangerous" because your stock turbo won't make it and other safeties would kick in before it'd blow your motor but WOW. That's crap if that's an OTS tune, what garbage. I'll ask my tuner if that even makes sense that that could be an OTS.

[Unspec]

Originally Posted by BrowBMW

If stage one is targeting 30 PSI I'd kick BM3 in a split second. That is lazy tuning... It's not "dangerous" because your stock turbo won't make it and other safeties would kick in before it'd blow your motor but WOW. That's crap if that's an OTS tune, what garbage. I'll ask my tuner if that even makes sense that that could be an OTS.

:shrug: yea that's what the log says, so dunno. Maybe someone messed up the logger and multiplied the value by 2? lol

[Unspec]

Was able to use this turbo inlet + some other bits and pieces (and some 3D printing) to do up my MST-like intake. Cost about 300 bucks total, but it's a full intake + inlet pipe upgrade, so pretty good value imo

[MatthewLC]

Originally Posted by Unspec

:shrug: yea that's what the log says, so dunno. Maybe someone messed up the logger and multiplied the value by 2? lol

I'm still very new to the tuning concept of these DME's but based on the little I know I'll take a guess at what's likely happening.

The standard tuning strategy in the DME is load/torque based. Your throttle input isn't the traditional correlation to throttle blade angle and air intake or flow into the engine. Your throttle input equals a desired torque request (in NM) of the engine. Ex. 40% throttle at 3500rpm = 250NM of desired engine output. From there the DME does whatever it takes to produce 250NM of engine output. That can include: increasing boost, timing, throttle angle, fuel, etc. There's a whole process flow the DME goes through in order to produce the "requested" torque output. The theory behind this is to ensure that no matter what climate, region, elevation or any other factor the engine output always matches or is as close as can be to the requested torque.

As you can imagine the tuning strategy is complex and can involve tuning many tables in order to do something as simple as increasing boost. It can take a lot of time to develop a tune and you can end up fighting the DME to increase power output as something in that process flow might not be happy about you trying to increase engine output. A lot of this goes back to reverse engineering BMW's code on the DME to understand exactly how it all comes together. Some tuners are more familiar with it and embrace this strategy, while others may feel like it's unnecessarily complex and can be simplified.

One method of simplification is leveraging the "commanded duty cycle" boost control model in the DME. This method of boost control is available in the DME but unused by BMW. By default BMW uses a PID Boost control strategy. You can google the concept but simply it's more complex than a "standard" boost control model and has a feedback loop built in. With PID it can take a lot of time to get the boost control smooth or even get it to do what you want it to do. This is where "commanded duty cycle" comes into play. As the name would suggest, it allows you to command a specific wastegate duty cycle. It's basically a table that will override the default boost control model (PID) and say at "this" rpm and "this" engine load, request "this" wastegate duty cycle. No feedback, nothing fancy just, "DME make sure you hit this wastegate duty cycle".

That whole novel to say, I'm pretty sure Bootmod3 is leveraging the commanded wastegate duty cycle model for their PWG tunes lol. If you look at both datalogs you'll see roughly the same duty cycle is being achieved before and after. You've now removed a significant air restriction for the turbo, taking less effort to spin the turbo and less wastegate duty cycle to achieve the same desired boost output. If the feedback loop was in place the DME would realize it doesn't require as much duty cycle to achieve the same boost level, reduce the wastegate duty cycle and reduce boost.

I believe the "boost target" value doesn't really mean anything in this scenario since the standard boost control model has been thrown out the window. The target is likely just going to align with the actual. Also keep it mind all the "safeties/limits" have likely all been raised significantly. So, boost cut is probably maxed out to the limit of the MAP sensor, allowable torque output is probably raised to something high like 1000NM, etc... This is why there hasn't been any intervention by the DME with you achieving that much boost. It's simply doing what it's been told to do, which is hit the same wastegate duty cycle every time.

Some may argue this is "bad" tuning but I think it comes down to perspective. The Stage 1 and Stage 2 maps are very much one size fits all and in most cases everyone's car is copy and paste in terms of mods (intercooler, downpipe, maybe intake). So 9 out of 10 times, you won't have an issue. You need to be careful when you introduce new variables that may not have been accounted for in the original development of the tune.

Again, this is me taking a pretty big guess as to what's going on so take what's been said with a grain of salt lol.

As I side note, I've have used both MHD and Bootmod3 on my car. I've done logging with both and reviewed a ton of logs and from what I've seen I'm pretty sure Bootmod3 is using commanded duty cycle. I also believe MHD is still using the standard PID boost control model, which is why I think a lot people say MHD PWG maps tend to be "smoother" in terms of power delivery.

[Unspec]

Originally Posted by MatthewLC

I'm still very new to the tuning concept of these DME's but based on the little I know I'll take a guess at what's likely happening.

The standard tuning strategy in the DME is load/torque based. Your throttle input isn't the traditional correlation to throttle blade angle and air intake or flow into the engine. Your throttle input equals a desired torque request (in NM) of the engine. Ex. 40% throttle at 3500rpm = 250NM of desired engine output. From there the DME does whatever it takes to produce 250NM of engine output. That can include: increasing boost, timing, throttle angle, fuel, etc. There's a whole process flow the DME goes through in order to produce the "requested" torque output. The theory behind this is to ensure that no matter what climate, region, elevation or any other factor the engine output always matches or is as close as can be to the requested torque.

As you can imagine the tuning strategy is complex and can involve tuning many tables in order to do something as simple as increasing boost. It can take a lot of time to develop a tune and you can end up fighting the DME to increase power output as something in that process flow might not be happy about you trying to increase engine output. A lot of this goes back to reverse engineering BMW's code on the DME to understand exactly how it all comes together. Some tuners are more familiar with it and embrace this strategy, while others may feel like it's unnecessarily complex and can be simplified.

One method of simplification is leveraging the "commanded duty cycle" boost control model in the DME. This method of boost control is available in the DME but unused by BMW. By default BMW uses a PID Boost control strategy. You can google the concept but simply it's more complex than a "standard" boost control model and has a feedback loop built in. With PID it can take a lot of time to get the boost control smooth or even get it to do what you want it to do. This is where "commanded duty cycle" comes into play. As the name would suggest, it allows you to command a specific wastegate duty cycle. It's basically a table that will override the default boost control model (PID) and say at "this" rpm and "this" engine load, request "this" wastegate duty cycle. No feedback, nothing fancy just, "DME make sure you hit this wastegate duty cycle".

That whole novel to say, I'm pretty sure Bootmod3 is leveraging the commanded wastegate duty cycle model for their PWG tunes lol. If you look at both datalogs you'll see roughly the same duty cycle is being achieved before and after. You've now removed a significant air restriction for the turbo, taking less effort to spin the turbo and less wastegate duty cycle to achieve the same desired boost output. If the feedback loop was in place the DME would realize it doesn't require as much duty cycle to achieve the same boost level, reduce the wastegate duty cycle and reduce boost.

I believe the "boost target" value doesn't really mean anything in this scenario since the standard boost control model has been thrown out the window. The target is likely just going to align with the actual. Also keep it mind all the "safeties/limits" have likely all been raised significantly. So, boost cut is probably maxed out to the limit of the MAP sensor, allowable torque output is probably raised to something high like 1000NM, etc... This is why there hasn't been any intervention by the DME with you achieving that much boost. It's simply doing what it's been told to do, which is hit the same wastegate duty cycle every time.

Some may argue this is "bad" tuning but I think it comes down to perspective. The Stage 1 and Stage 2 maps are very much one size fits all and in most cases everyone's car is copy and paste in terms of mods (intercooler, downpipe, maybe intake). So 9 out of 10 times, you won't have an issue. You need to be careful when you introduce new variables that may not have been accounted for in the original development of the tune.

Again, this is me taking a pretty big guess as to what's going on so take what's been said with a grain of salt lol.

As I side note, I've have used both MHD and Bootmod3 on my car. I've done logging with both and reviewed a ton of logs and from what I've seen I'm pretty sure Bootmod3 is using commanded duty cycle. I also believe MHD is still using the standard PID boost control model, which is why I think a lot people say MHD PWG maps tend to be "smoother" in terms of power delivery.

I wonder if that changes at all with EWG cars?

[MatthewLC]

Originally Posted by Unspec

I wonder if that changes at all with EWG cars?

Good point, I should have mentioned my comments assumed this is a PWG car.

I haven't explored much in EWG tuning but from what I've seen online, it seems a lot quicker to dial in the boost control. I believe since the DME has full control over the wastegate it's easier to set a desired boost level and the dme will do what it needs to do with the wastegate position to achieve the desired boost target.

[MatthewLC]

I was curious, so I pulled up a stock EWG tune. Looks like commanded wastegate is possible for EWG as well. No idea if this strategy is being used on the OTS maps.

[Zinia]

Anyone lntrested to listen to the story. Have a look. 🤣🤣🤣🤣



https://photos.app.goo.gl/frvA6wwWa8xwMqZw5


30 minus ambient pressure equals 15. 🤣

[Unspec]

For anyone looking for other inlet options for 100% custom intakes - I THINK E series N55's had the same intake setup, and so any inlet for them should fit our cars. If it does fit, the E series ones are BETTER for custom intakes since it terminates at a straight, rather than the weird kink found on our cars, allowing you to use a simple 45 or 90 elbow to the filter. This is a theory and is untested, so YMMV