[Tasmanian]

Exactly what he said!!!

Originally Posted by DDD31

The handling on my F10 is definitely a mixed bag. Concerning sporty handling, the 550 is too nose heavy and definitely isn't nimble and really doesn't inspire any kind of confidence when the roads get twisty. I realize with the xdrive, I have the base suspension and crappy RFTs which certainly doesn't help with providing sporty handling. Concerning the handling in normal driving (especially highway driving), the 550 does a fantastic job of providing a smooth comfortable ride and is a true joy to drive.

I hate to say it but to me the F10 feels and drives like a Mercedes. I realize it was BMW's goal to make the F10 5 series more like a Mercedes to increase their sales. I think they succeeded with that goal but the days of BMW building a sports sedan that would trounce all competition in the driving category unfortunately are not coming back.

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by S1ammin

I can't even tell that my car has electric steering. It feels as stiff as any, and stiffer than some other non-BMW cars I've owned.

I agree, the only difference I notice between electric and hydraulic steering in the F10s is that the hydraulic steering provides slightly more on-center feel than the electric steering. Both steering systems unfortunately have almost no road feel especially compared with BMWs from the past.

[ezaircon4jc]

These (2012 base 535i & 2014 535i M-Sport) are my first BMW's and I couldn't be happier. The "M" handles significantly better than the base; though I'm satisfied with the handling of the base. The "5" is a big car and will NEVER handle like a "3", or ANY small car. IMHO, BMW hit the mark at which they were aiming. I also have no issues with the steering. For me, it centers just fine.

I know I could never drive a MB as long as they have the shifter the same as the wiper stalk on most other cars. as often As it rains here I would probably hit the shifter thinking I was turning on the wipers!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

These (2012 base 535i & 2014 535i M-Sport) are my first BMW's and I couldn't be happier. The "M" handles significantly better than the base; though I'm satisfied with the handling of the base. The "5" is a big car and will NEVER handle like a "3", or ANY small car. IMHO, BMW hit the mark at which they were aiming. I also have no issues with the steering. For me, it centers just fine.

I know I could never drive a MB as long as they have the shifter the same as the wiper stalk on most other cars. as often As it rains here I would probably hit the shifter thinking I was turning on the wipers!

I don't have any real issues with my 535i's EPS or the handling.

I also feel much the same, the Five is a big car, will never compare to the previous generations, let alone to a Three. The whole front suspension is different, whether we have hydraulic or EPS. It is designed to be more refined. After all, it is a step down from the F01 7-series, not a step up from the F30. BMW claimed (the then new) front wishbone suspension isolates some of the negative road interference. That translates in my book to also losing some of the steering 'rawness', which we feel as feedback. The C&D comparison of hydraulic vs. EPS in the F10 chassis, does support it is not simply EPS which changes the way we perceive the F10 steering.

Both steering and handling in the F10/F11 range of models is very dependant on how we specify the cars. We are not always comparing the same chassis dynamics in these discussions.

Specification and expectations will give a wide range of opinion.

[Russkey]

The car is big and heavy, but I have zero complains with the powerful 550 xdrive. My car is fully loaded accept the night vision (zero regrets) + dropped on ACS springs and it handles well imo. Definitely no floating on turns. I hardly imagine myself driving a base 5 series even if it has TTV8. Great looking car, but drives like e series. So, most of you're right about it being a boat without right options & springs (coilovers).

[Surly73]

Originally Posted by Douggie

Yes. It's not just the weight. A heavy steering doesn't equate to sporty, which BMW kind of got it wrong with the sports mode. Yes, the steering does become heavier when you trigger it, but that's about it. Still pretty lifeless.

What is lacking is a counter resistance from the steering wheel, where the steering "fights back". The return to center pull is very low, so when you finish making an abrupt turn, you need to assist the steering to go back to center. Whereas in some cars like the e90, you just gas it and it goes quickly back to center by itself, and you just do a controlled slip of the steering wheel under your hands. In the F10, it's a lot more work to steer the car and so it makes it feel slow and not sporty at all.

Yep, this. The "weight" of the steering must be from centering force in addition to reduced boost. The higher your speed, the greater the centering force (instead of feeling like driving a video game). A lot of feedback about road surface and reaching the limit of traction comes in that centering force too.

I have an F10 X-drive with hydraulic steering and it's far different from the E90, E39 I6 and E46 hydraulic rack-and-pinion set ups. I do believe it is superior to, but more boosted than, the E39 recirculating ball steering and different front end in the V8 E39s.

The F10 steering ratio is also significantly slower than the E90, which contributes to the "big, slow" feeling, and the mechanical advantage given to the driver by the slower steering reduces steering effort and feedback.

I've never driven an LCI, but people say it's noticeably better. I'd still love to know why - revised rack? revised pump? Or is it only improved on the electric assist models and it's just software improvements?

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by Surly73

I've never driven an LCI, but people say it's noticeably better. I'd still love to know why - revised rack? revised pump? Or is it only improved on the electric assist models and it's just software improvements?

My car has the hydraulic setup and I agree with your assessment that the steering is pretty slow which does give it the feeling of being a big ponderous car. My previous car (F30) had electric steering that was much quicker but it had even less feel. I much prefer the hydraulic steering feel in my F10, especially the on-center feel.

[DriveTrainMalfunc]

I hope upgraded sway arms helps me enjoy the car more. I came from a 2000 bmw 750il on coil-overs. Unfortunately my 550 is only fun to drive in a straight line. My e38 for such a big car was fantastic. Steering weight was perfect, highway was great, loads if confidence going into turns and virtually no body roll. I really miss my e38! But im going to do a few more things to the f10 to get it where it should've been from factory.

[lsturbointeg]

i throw my 535's fat a$$ it turns pretty hard and nothing gives me greater enjoyment than her squealing when her back ends starts to somewhat breaks loose. like i mentioned ealier push your car a little bit more and the more you do it the more you get to know what your car can do!

[Pierre Louis]

Although I am quite happy with the base suspension 535d, I'll disagree about Mercedes. My 2005 E320 CDI had the "luxury" suspension standard, handled quite nicely (perhaps even better than the BMW) and it never screeched, no matter how fast I made the turns, which was never abusively but quite briskly. Both have double-wishbone front and multi-link rear suspension - the best design outside of a 911/Cayman/Boxster macpherson strut sports car setup IMO.

I was in the market for a comfortable highway cruiser, wanted an inline 6 turbodiesel, and got it new for CPO used money. The d comes with upgraded tires, even if they are all-season and RFT's.

Its no sports car, but its still a BMW. The steering and I guess road feel in the LCI f10 is known to have been breathed on by BMW. No complaints.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Although I am quite happy with the base suspension 535d, I'll disagree about Mercedes. My 2005 E320 CDI had the "luxury" suspension standard, handled quite nicely (perhaps even better than the BMW) and it never screeched, no matter how fast I made the turns, which was never abusively but quite briskly. Both have double-wishbone front and multi-link rear suspension - the best design outside of a 911/Cayman/Boxster macpherson strut sports car setup IMO.

Disagree about the McPherson strut setup. Struts are a compromise to accommodate the space restrictions of the FWD platform. The double wishbone (or upper and lower A-arms) is a superior setup; when done correctly. My last car also had upper and lower control arms at the rear corners. It was designed by a guy that was a suspension engineer for a little known Formula1 team. Some guy named Michael Schumacher...

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

Disagree about the McPherson strut setup. Struts are a compromise to accommodate the space restrictions of the FWD platform. The double wishbone (or upper and lower A-arms) is a superior setup; when done correctly. My last car also had upper and lower control arms at the rear corners. It was designed by a guy that was a suspension engineer for a little known Formula1 team. Some guy named Michael Schumacher...

It all depends on your preference for a strong steering axis inclination that makes a favorable cornering geometry and feel. No doubt double wishbones/double A arms are more sophisticated, though.

PL

[S1ammin]

Originally Posted by DDD31

I agree, the only difference I notice between electric and hydraulic steering in the F10s is that the hydraulic steering provides slightly more on-center feel than the electric steering. Both steering systems unfortunately have almost no road feel especially compared with BMWs from the past.

It's funny though. I feel the steering wheel does prefer a return to center almost just like a hydraulic does, and because the M-Sport does have a firmer suspension, I can definitely feel any front tire hop when making aggressive turns over imperfect roads.

I also expect that once I get non-RF tires, the feel will get even closer to what I've had in the past, but as it stands now, I really do like the way this car handles. The 'feel' I got when test driving all of the several BMW's I test drove is what sold me on BMW. I had little difficulty deciding between this suspension and the others I tried though.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Douggie

What is lacking is a counter resistance from the steering wheel, where the steering "fights back". The return to center pull is very low, so when you finish making an abrupt turn, you need to assist the steering to go back to center. Whereas in some cars like the e90, you just gas it and it goes quickly back to center by itself, and you just do a controlled slip of the steering wheel under your hands. In the F10, it's a lot more work to steer the car and so it makes it feel slow and not sporty at all.

I come back to the 'return to center' levels across the F10/F11 models. Adding to the natural 'self-centering', the way the steering loads in bends and at speed.

I'm interested in other users experience, as there does seem to be variations. Some who say there is little loading in turns, even less pull back to center.

I've been giving my car particular attention over the past few days, as I've never noticed a problem or deficiency in self-centering or loading in the 'curves'. I moved to the F11 from an E91, with what some view as a pretty good HPAS steering system, both for steering speed, response and feedback.

Appreciate the rack is quite slow in the F10/11, and steering is less weighted, but don't find big differences in how the steering feels for self-centering, or loading up as we'd expect. Of course it is different to the E91, but that is expected in the bigger car with a longer wheel base.

What I did notice when test driving ahead of getting my car, an example with SAT (my car has the Sport Auto Transmission) had better steering responses than the standard auto models.

What the is the experience of other users? Have other users found SAT (or other options) give different steering characteristics?

[Bmw doubles]

Originally Posted by NA F10

My steering is quite hefty and weighted (feels like an e90 but more numb)

My steering used to do this very weird click when straightening out the wheel at high speed. It doesn't do this anymore, but a bit of effort is still required to straighten out the wheel. I find the steering rack to be pretty precise and nimble for such a heavy car. All in all, I like the steering on this car. Installing 19 inch rims with summer tires made a big difference with steering precision. Performance suspension would make the steering even sharper.

I've always wondered if I stepped down to 19's and smaller width on the tire if the steering would turn quicker? My responsiveness on 20's with wider tires is delayed when I turn in top of being numb.

[Douggie]

Originally Posted by Bmw doubles

I've always wondered if I stepped down to 19's and smaller width on the tire if the steering would turn quicker? My responsiveness on 20's with wider tires is delayed when I turn in top of being numb.

I doubt it will make any difference. Like some of us said, the steering rack is slow (steering ratio is low), so you have to turn the steering wheel a lot before the wheel physically turns. I'm on 19s and I can deliberately oscillate the steering wheel somewhere between 11 and 1 o'clock positions (maybe about a 30 degrees angle), but the car won't swerve much at all. I guess the massive length of the car, with a long wheelbase, does not help as well. It's similar to driving a long bus.

[Surly73]

Originally Posted by Douggie

I doubt it will make any difference. Like some of us said, the steering rack is slow (steering ratio is low), so you have to turn the steering wheel a lot before the wheel physically turns. I'm on 19s and I can deliberately oscillate the steering wheel somewhere between 11 and 1 o'clock positions (maybe about a 30 degrees angle), but the car won't swerve much at all. I guess the massive length of the car, with a long wheelbase, does not help as well. It's similar to driving a long bus.

A few comments:

It is true that F10 steering is slow in general. Hydraulic and electric assist can be significantly different. Even more significant - some electric assist systems can vary their ratio depending on conditions. I'm not positive about the F10, but an F30 loaner I had sure seemed like it had a faster ratio when driving in a parking lot (the wheel went less than one turn in each direction lock-to-lock and crossing my arms over was enough for tight turns to park) than on the road (where, at speed, crossing my arms over was a large radius left from one four lane road to another).

Add to this the ability to have different steering ratios depending on COMFORT, SPORT etc... and it's hard to generalize. A year ago an Infinity commercial featured some guy walking through the onboard steering menu, selecting QUICK and FIRM for a sporty drive.

My F10 has hydraulic steering. It's slower than I'd like, for sure. My E90 is pretty close to perfect in this regard.

[Douggie]

Originally Posted by Surly73

A few comments:

It is true that F10 steering is slow in general. Hydraulic and electric assist can be significantly different. Even more significant - some electric assist systems can vary their ratio depending on conditions. I'm not positive about the F10, but an F30 loaner I had sure seemed like it had a faster ratio when driving in a parking lot (the wheel went less than one turn in each direction lock-to-lock and crossing my arms over was enough for tight turns to park) than on the road (where, at speed, crossing my arms over was a large radius left from one four lane road to another).

Add to this the ability to have different steering ratios depending on COMFORT, SPORT etc... and it's hard to generalize. A year ago an Infinity commercial featured some guy walking through the onboard steering menu, selecting QUICK and FIRM for a sporty drive.

My F10 has hydraulic steering. It's slower than I'd like, for sure. My E90 is pretty close to perfect in this regard.

The F30 that you drove might have the Variable Sports Steering option. While it makes it quicker, it's still bad.

http://www.richardaucock.com/blog/how-a-bmw-launch-car-mis-spec-lost-it-a-review-star

[Surly73]

Originally Posted by Douggie

The F30 that you drove might have the Variable Sports Steering option. While it makes it quicker, it's still bad.

http://www.richardaucock.com/blog/ho...-a-review-star

I never said it was good compared to years gone by

It irks me, and leads to great misunderstanding and misinformation, when generalizations come out and posters don't acknowledge that there's a lot of differences even within a single model.

"F10s are nose heavy" - were you driving a 550xi or a 520i RWD?
"BMW NAV sucks" - CCC? CIC? NBT? NBT Evo?
"F10s corner flat" - DDC? ARS? 704? passive base suspension?

It's a shame that BMW isn't doing all that they could with EPS. A nice EPS rack with good software (and user customization) could really win in this area. Like the Infiniti commercial showed - how firm and fast would you like your steering? Just dial it in.

I do long for more steering feedback. I remember when I had PS2s on my E39 (with the inline-6 front end - much better than the V8's) I could feel reflective paint on the road ("SCHOOL ZONE AHEAD") through the wheel.

From what I've read the F10s suspension geometry tunes a bunch of it out regardless of whether you have EPS or HPS. This could be because they want a luxury cruiser. Or because X-Drive is so prevalent and you'd get lots of torque steer if you had a geometry optimized for feedback. Or maybe it's the harsh run flats - I *do* get feedback in the steering of my HPS X-Drive, but it's rarely "good" or "sporty" feedback. It's usually the run flats crashing and bouncing over small road imperfections. FWIW, I'm ditching the runflats on my next set of summer tires, but may still go runflat for my winter tires.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Surly73

I never said it was good compared to years gone by

It irks me, and leads to great misunderstanding and misinformation, when generalizations come out and posters don't acknowledge that there's a lot of differences even within a single model.

"F10s are nose heavy" - were you driving a 550xi or a 520i RWD?
"BMW NAV sucks" - CCC? CIC? NBT? NBT Evo?
"F10s corner flat" - DDC? ARS? 704? passive base suspension?

It's a shame that BMW isn't doing all that they could with EPS. A nice EPS rack with good software (and user customization) could really win in this area. Like the Infiniti commercial showed - how firm and fast would you like your steering? Just dial it in.

I do long for more steering feedback. I remember when I had PS2s on my E39 (with the inline-6 front end - much better than the V8's) I could feel reflective paint on the road ("SCHOOL ZONE AHEAD") through the wheel.

From what I've read the F10s suspension geometry tunes a bunch of it out regardless of whether you have EPS or HPS. This could be because they want a luxury cruiser. Or because X-Drive is so prevalent and you'd get lots of torque steer if you had a geometry optimized for feedback. Or maybe it's the harsh run flats - I *do* get feedback in the steering of my HPS X-Drive, but it's rarely "good" or "sporty" feedback. It's usually the run flats crashing and bouncing over small road imperfections. FWIW, I'm ditching the runflats on my next set of summer tires, but may still go runflat for my winter tires.

Excellent appraisal of the subject, I have similar thinking.

So easy to be comparing 'apples and pears'. Test drives opinions are often skewed, simply because the driver doesn't know the specification, or is comparing to something completely different.

We often get comparisons to the E39, even there, what model and specification are we comparing to? I had the 540i touring with the 'compromised' steering system, so a different comparison to the F10/F11, than someone who owned say an E39 530i with the superb rack and pinion steering and a lighter front end.

F10/F11 models are very different to drive according to specification, same as all generations of BMW ranges have been in my experience. Also, as the market evolves, so do the priorities.

I know a few of us would love a bit more steering feedback, but do wonder how many users buying into the 5-series market, really want the raw steering feel of years ago. I'd wager more 5-series users, over the years, have asked BMW for lighter steering, than commented on the loss of feedback.

Here in the Europe, EPS was introduced into some models in the E9x range, several years ahead of the F3x models. Hardly a peep about the steering, just that it was lighter. We never got all the EPS talk and debates until the F3x models were launched, and everyone was aware they had EPS. Even the motor magazines seemed to miss the fact EPS was there in some E9x models. Interpret that how you like, but I believe it does say something about users.

[Desmond79]

My 2014 F10 was a lease turn-in, and is equipped with the base suspension - it handled like a floating luxury liner. Heavy, not planted, rolling, and emasculated of its BMW'ness.

Drove a 2016 F10 with similar options but the base handling was significantly improved.

So I went on my adventure - ACS, Koni FSD, 650i rear bar, Pirelli A/S 3+. It is not my E90, but I bought the F10 because I wanted more comfort and space than the E90. The new suspension components have the car planted, less roll, and the tires produce a more supple ride. It is actually responsive at lower speeds around corners - I can make a quick turn that I can actually feel. At higher speeds, I can feel the rear end during a turn. No, it is not an E90, the ride is still too damped, and if I had my way, I would venture into Koni Sport Adjustable territory. It is now a lux cruiser with a dampened feel for the road. I can go 60 through wide turns on the tollways with aplomb but I know the car's limitations (I'd rather it dampened less) and can enjoy some sportiness with the heft of the car. It's a compromise, like any car, but an enjoyable comfortable lux sports machine.

I kept my '09 E90 and at 84k, am changing out the trim, door sill, kidneys, sport pedals, etc. I want to keep it for the 6 speed, although I wish it had a Miata type precision stick. Next is ditching run flats.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by J35 - N52

You can perhaps dial back the rear negative camber a bit, because more negative in the front then the rear will cause a balanced oversteer happy chassis. I'm actually quite looking forward to purchasing camber plates because this will drastically change the handling behaviour of this vehicle.

What sort of camber plates are you using on the F10? Remember you have wishbones, not top mounts.

Or do you mean adjustable wishbones?